Touhou low tier revision

[RethPo]

An upgrade for a few and a slight downgrade

So here yukari fires train at people which completely pulverises on their opponents leaving nothing left, around three carraiges. Characters can tank this explosion point

This feat is probably either high 8-C or 8-B going by how much it takes to fragment things like tanks. This should be calced though if possible.

Characters who scale (for fighting yukari in story modes):
Koishi Komeji (likely satori as a result)
Sumireko
Shion
Joon
Shinmyoumaru

It could scale to reisen and nitori for being on the roster but im unsure bout that. Not sure who else scales to those characters though

Some additional downgrade:

Alice and Patchouli should only be (high tier level) with magic and 9-B physically. Alice only harms mokou in imperisable night with doll magic and doesnt really attack her through any physical means so only doll magic should scale, and both of them are only rivals to marisa in terms of magic. The main reason they should be downgraded though is that its stated that most magicians have physically weak bodies (at least ones that have been doing it and using mercury for a long time). And alice and patchouli are the main examples given for it.

Yet theyre listed as infinitely above the rest of the cast. So yeah, they should deffo be downgraded!

 

[DaReaperMan]

I agree

 

[RethPo]

Staff member crabwhale has agreed, lets make the changes

Well agreements gud but getting values for trains is a nightmare. I did dig up quite a few values though on this old thread which should help with calcing.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I've always hated wall level Touhou; I fully agree. Though I do think we should look into scaling chains before applying this. It won't apply to fairies (yet) obviously, but I see no reason why these characters are far stronger than everyone around them. It doesn't make sense to say Koishi is hundreds of times tougher than her sister, y'know?

And I've already said my piece on Alice and Patchouli, I also agree with that. Sorry it got drowned out in the other thread.

EDIT: nvm I didn't see you mentioned Satori in the original post Why the **** do I keep doing this??

 

[QuasiYuri]

Pretty sure we consider it as not legit cuz "spell cards", since Cirno scaling to a good part of the cast was refused on that basis.
Also Yukari using an especially tier 8 attack for a single move doesnt seem very coherent.

 

[Pixy]

An upgrade for a few and a slight downgrade

So here yukari fires train at people which completely pulverises on their opponents leaving nothing left, around three carraiges. Characters can tank this explosion point

This feat is probably either high 8-C or 8-B going by how much it takes to fragment things like tanks. This should be calced though if possible.

Characters who scale (for fighting yukari in story modes):
Koishi Komeji (likely satori as a result)
Sumireko
Shion
Joon
Shinmyoumaru

It could scale to reisen and nitori for being on the roster but im unsure bout that. Not sure who else scales to those characters though

Some additional downgrade:

Alice and Patchouli should only be (high tier level) with magic and 9-B physically. Alice only harms mokou in imperisable night with doll magic and doesnt really attack her through any physical means so only doll magic should scale, and both of them are only rivals to marisa in terms of magic. The main reason they should be downgraded though is that its stated that most magicians have physically weak bodies (at least ones that have been doing it and using mercury for a long time). And alice and patchouli are the main examples given for it.

Yet theyre listed as infinitely above the rest of the cast. So yeah, they should deffo be downgraded!

Wait Wait !? WTF !? When the hell they have 2-C on their profile !? I expect those gods who got upgrade by Hecatia Gaming is only group of them being 2-C and follow by Reimu

Not gonna lie I maximum agree with this downgrade
Imagine those Youkai are truly in 2-C it's mean just one of them can Cause human village to the ash

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Pretty sure we consider it as not legit cuz "spell cards", since Cirno scaling to a good part of the cast was refused on that basis.
Also Yukari using an especially tier 8 attack for a single move doesnt seem very coherent.

I think that's why we're only scaling this to characters who fight her in story mode, since that'd be actual canon rather than just a random VS match.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think that's why we're only scaling this to characters who fight her in story mode, since that'd be actual canon rather than just a random VS match.

Cirno rejected feats were all story mode stuff which is why I brought it up
Although it may actually get accepted now

 

[RethPo]

Spellcard rules mean characters dont fight using full power and anyone can fight anyone. But that obviously doesnt mean a train exploding into a thousand pieces is magically going to only be wall level. Anybody who tanks it should scale

For cirno... she beats people under scrs has some spellcard banter that compliments her and thats it. Shes practically fodder otherwise. The closest she could have would be scaling to okuus sun... but i feel like that could be written off as an outlier if used. But thatd be another thread

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, the tier 6/4 stuff would definitely be a huge outlier for fairies. This would only be scaled to characters who should already be far above Cirno and isn't nearly as big of a leap so I think it's a little more reasonable.

Wall level Cirno is still downplay but I'll save that for my own CRT.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah I kinda disagree here as it's literally assuming Yukari is using for some reason right a Tier 8 attack.

 

[QuasiYuri]

For cirno... she beats people under scrs has some spellcard banter that compliments her and thats it. Shes practically fodder otherwise. The closest she could have would be scaling to okuus sun... but i feel like that could be written off as an outlier if used. But thatd be another thread

There's actually more than that, and most people scaling above her just does without a true reason.
Being consistently treated as an outlier for Fairy and strong enough for the main cast to consider her as worth fighting at full power already says a lot.

Although the current standard on spell cards suck anyway.

 

[Shmooply]

If we could get someone to calc it, maybe we could scale the low tiers to Cirno freezing a lake?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Damn it Shmooply I was just about to bring that up

Do we even know how much of the lake she froze in that scene? Granted, a few pages later we see that she also created a giant block of ice so maybe that could be calced? I remember doing a calc for that a long time ago and getting low 7-C, but I'm awful at math so don't take my word on this.

 

[Shmooply]

i was gonna make a joke related to planck stuff here but then i remembered that my brain is slow
I don't think it's ever implied how much of the lake she froze. Granted, I've heard a few others say that she froze the lake entirely, but they didn't provide any proof for that, so... eh.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If we're in the business of upgrading low tiers here, I have a few potential feats I was gonna mention in a separate CRT. I'll just copy/paste what I already wrote there.

"Possibly notable low tier feats include Cirno creating a massive block of ice and freezing the surrounding terrain, Sumireko pulling down radio towers with her telekinesis and dispersing clouds, Nitori creating a giant water dragon, and Raiko creating a storm comparable to the one the Shining Needle Castle generated, which was stated to 'echo across Gensokyo'. There are probably others but these are just the one I remember off the top of my head."

And if evidence of a UES is needed for some of these feats to be valid, I have evidence of that as well (was holding off on it since UES guidelines are still being determined).

Also, if anyone has the scans proving Cirno froze the entire lake, now would be the time to show them.

 

[RethPo]

Do thermal feats of freezing over something even give a physical stats rating anymore?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Maybe? I was under the impression that if either 1. there's no clear transfer of energy or 2. the verse has no UES, then it wouldn't scale to physicals. But in Cirno's case, she has both (since IIRC Reisen says Cirno is just absorbing heat from the surrounding area).

I could be wrong, but it does seem like this could scale to physicals. I've always had a hard time keeping up with the thermal feat revisions so I'm not 100% sure.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Cirno creating a massive block of ice

I think that's unquantifiable, the blocks of ice are extremely inconsistent in size through this panel.

freezing the surrounding terrain

Unquantifiable too as we have no idea on how much she froze.

Sumireko pulling down radio towers with her telekinesis

Not sure about this one. We should find the actual height of said radio towers and then using Square cube law to find their weight. To find how high they are, I'd suggest something like angsize the street or the lanterns on it, given that is at the bottom. Using GPE (like here) given they directly tank it would be the best.

dispersing clouds

How's that diapering a cloud? That's more taking energy from it and using a SW Superlaser like attack.

Nitori creating a giant water dragon

Is the dragon alive or is just her lifting water to make it look like a dragon?

Raiko creating a storm comparable to the one the Shining Needle Castle generated, which was stated to 'echo across Gensokyo'.

Here we go. Low 7-B Fairies? OwO

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I think that's unquantifiable, the blocks of ice are extremely inconsistent in size through this panel.

Is it? It's clearly in the background in both shots and we never see it in it's entirety. I think using the latter image of it would be best since that's the clearest view we have of it.

Is the dragon alive or is just her lifting water to make it look like a dragon?

The latter.

Here we go. Low 7-B Fairies? OwO

Fairies probably wouldn't scale unfortunately, maybe Cirno could get it as an 'at most' rating. Should scale to every low tier that isn't a fairy though.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Is it? It's clearly in the background in both shots and we never see it in it's entirety. I think using the latter image of it would be best since that's the clearest view we have of it.

I mean, first is a lot bigger than the characters then in the bottom one is not that massive.

The latter.

PE then.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The second shot is zoomed out super far, so of course the block of ice is gonna look way bigger. The first shot doesn't even give us enough to gauge how big it is other than the fact it's taller than the characters (which is still true for the last shot), so I don't know why we're comparing the last panel to it. There's not really anything to compare to, basically.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The second shot is zoomed out super far, so of course the block of ice is gonna look way bigger. The first shot doesn't even give us enough to gauge how big it is other than the fact it's taller than the characters (which is still true for the last shot), so I don't know why we're comparing the last panel to it. There's not really anything to compare to, basically.

Aka still unquantifiable. Pain.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, we still have Nitori's water dragon to scale to the fairies and Raiko's storm for the other low tiers.

 

[RethPo]

Not sure how the water dragon scales to the fairies but...
Raikos storm scales to other non fairy low tiers?
Doesnt raiko have "likely far higher" on her profile and posess a portion of an onis power? I dont think theres many you could scale to her

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The Three Fairies of Light were caught in the middle of the water dragon, so their durability might scale.

Raiko does have the 'likely far higher rating', but the storm feat would give us an actual tier to work with there. We don't know how much of an oni's power she has, so I don't think we could really use that to say she's far stronger than other non-fairy low tiers. So I guess her rating would end up as something like "low 7-B, likely far higher"?

 

[RethPo]

The Three Fairies of Light were caught in the middle of the water dragon, so their durability might scale.

They kinda dodged it though

Raiko does have the 'likely far higher rating', but the storm feat would give us an actual tier to work with there. We don't know how much of an oni's power she has, so I don't think we could really use that to say she's far stronger than other non-fairy low tiers. So I guess her rating would end up as something like "low 7-B, likely far higher"?

Uhuh... If theres no proof of most non fairy low tiers scaling to her... who would actually scale to raiko then and why?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

They kinda dodged it though

They didn't? They were obviously tossed into the air by the impact, and Nitori was only a few feet away from them when she created it. We even see them being lifted into the air by the water dragon.

Uhuh... If theres no proof of most non fairy low tiers scaling to her... who would actually scale to raiko then and why?

Where did I say there wasn't proof? I was questioning the idea that Raiko is way stronger than other characters, not that other characters scale to her. Given how we treat Touhou scaling here, I think Yatsuhashi, Benben, and maybe Kogasa would scale. I'd have to check and see if they scale to anyone else, but at the very least this should scale to other tsukumogami.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I'm bad at anything regarding the low tiers of the verse, I apologize.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The Three Fairies of Light were caught in the middle of the water dragon, so their durability might scale.

It doesn't work like that. If you're getting lifted alongside a huge object you're on, you don't scale to its full PE. Here's an example of such feat.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Damn, that's disappointing. I'll admit I have very little knowledge when it comes to calcs so I apologize if I keep getting things wrong.

It'd at least be a decent upgrade for Nitori, so if Raiko's storm creation isn't used for whatever reason we can at least fall back on that.

And I still think Cirno's big ice cube should be used so if people here think it shouldn't be used I'll find a way to calc it in my own time and see if it gets accepted

 

[RethPo]

Eyeballing nitoris dragon itd prolly be either 9-A to 8-C. Who even scales to nitori?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Probably Takane but we don't have a page for her yet. I think regardless of what tier we end up on, we'll have to do what we're already doing with Cirno scaling and just have a bunch of "should be comparable to/superior to" justifications.

 

[Promestein]

We have to get these things calced.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Should I ask in the calculation request thread then?

Raiko's feat is using the site standards for vague storm creation feats so I don't know if it'd need to be evaluated beyond that. I think the small city end fits with the description of the storm itself.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Should I ask in the calculation request thread then?

Yes.

Raiko's feat is using the site standards for vague storm creation feats so I don't know if it'd need to be evaluated beyond that. I think the small city end fits with the description of the storm itself.

Yep yep. Remember to use only the 2.40995597059316 Megatons end as nothing in your scans suggest a higher intensity.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Done. In the meantime, we should probably figure out who we're scaling to Raiko. Would all non-fairy low tiers work? (Not including Akyuu, Kosuszu, Rinnosuke, etc for obvious reasons).

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Would Alice's downgrade be applied to both her keys?

 

[RethPo]

Would Alice's downgrade be applied to both her keys?

Most likely just her windows key.

(Member that yukaris exploding train could use a calc too since characters still scale.)

 

[Jasonsith]

Most likely just her windows key.

(Member that yukaris exploding train could use a calc too since characters still scale.)

I am asked to comment here

Is that a train explosion feat or just a train ramming them and mowing then down? Because one spell card of Yukari is literally summoning a train and ramming at them - dealing a lot of damage in the fighting game and is a 5-card spell