Touhou low tier revision

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Might as well contacting the other calc members for that

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

As with freezing feats, pretty sure you need a UES to scale it to physicals, otherwise it's just environmental destruction. I personally think Touhou has a UES but that's for its own CRT. Some staff input would be appreciated regardless though, both in regards to the storm creation and Cirno's ice feats.

 

[Antvasima]

Here's the blog with the calcs: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Psychomaster35/Touhou_Project:_Assorted_Feats

And here's what RethPo has proposed for the scaling. I think we still need to determine the possibility of a Keine upgrade, or if the few freezing feats we've found are able to be calced and used for scaling.

Aight so heres what i have:
Building level (a + rating if theyre no doubt stronger than nitori whos 0.004 times weaker than 8-C+): Either scaling to kappas or tanking a train explosion
Seiran At least Wall level, likely Building level (Superior to cirno. Shouldnt be too far behind moon rabbits like reisen)
Ringo At least Wall level, likely Building level (Superior to cirno. Shouldnt be too far behind moon rabbits like reisen)
Rei'sen At least Wall level, likely Building level (Superior to cirno. Shouldnt be too far behind moon rabbits like reisen. Is a replacement to reisen as well)
Parsee Mizuhashi At least Building level, likely higher (Guards the bridge to the underworld which is already near the mountain and should scale to strong youkai)
Hina Kagiyama At least Building level (Guards the youkai mountain and scares humans off, shouldnt be too far behind kappa as a result)
Yamame Kurodani At least Building level, likely higher (Youkai underground are strong and dangerous by youkai standards so they should at least be comparable. Although characters like kisume could scale by that logic, but little is known about kisume except shes a stage 1 midboss)
Rin Kaenbyou At least Building level, likely higher (is the stage 5 boss and should be comparable to if not stronger than the other underworld youkai)
(Tsukumogami are quite strong rite?)
Nitori Building level (For her feat)
Minamitsu Murasa At least Building level, likely higher (Quite strong going by her profile)
Sumireko usami At least Building level (Took yukaris train. Not sure if shes mega strong otherwise or scales beyond nitori)
Shion yorigami At least Building level, likely higher
joon yorigami At least Building level, likely higher (Same as sumireko)
Shinmyoumaru At least Building level, likely higher (Scales to train. Maybe she could have a +? Not sure)
Reisen At least Building level, likely higher (Incident resolver making her somewhere in gensokyos power balance. Should be at least comparable to kappa)
Eternity Larva At least Building level, likely far higher (Way more powerful than most fairies and is speculated to even be a god. Unknown how strong she is compared to other youkai but shouldnt be weaker than kappa based on her explanation)
Tanned Cirno At least Building level+, likely far higher (Wayyy stronger than before. Should be stronger than eternity partly powered by onika)
Momiji At least Building level+, likely higher (tengu are stronger than kappa and some of the stronger youkai in gensokyo)
Iku Nagae At least Building level+, possibly far higher (Has a portion of dragon god power, lives above the mountain and watches over weather, shouldnt be weaker than kappa)
En'era At least Building level+, likely higher (Powerful youkai that had to be sealed)
Giant toad At least Building level+, likely higher (Lives on the mountain. Youkai who live on the mountain including tengu and kappa are afraid of it. Should also have cold resistance btw)
Hong Meiling At least Building level+, likely higher (Served as a guard to the sdm before scr. Should be able to fend off decently strong youkai)
Nemuno At least Building level, likely higher (Strong youkai living on the youkai mountain and should at least scale to the kappa that live there
Letty whiterock second key At least Building level, likely higher (Should be downgraded. Her justification is that "her power would create an incident" which already listed wall levels can do. It doesnt require you to be top tier at all. Even saikou agreed with downgrading this in the past but never got down to doing so. It could still make her building level)

Characters im still pretty unsure about:
Soga no Tojiko At least building level? (one of mikos followers. Thats all i have)
Mai Teireida and Satono Nishida At least Building level+, possibly far higher (Partly powered by onika so prolly quite strong)

Small city level storm creation scaling:
Raiko Horikawa Low 7-B
Yatsuhashi tsukumo Low 7-B (her and benben were created in the same way as raiko iirc so they should scale)
Benben tsukumo Low 7-B
Kogasa Tatara At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Should be stronger than kappa such as nitori. Potentially scales to tsukumogami such as raiko)
Hata no Kokoro At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Should be stronger than kappa, may scale to tsukumogami such as raiko)
Koishi Komeji At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Considered a rival to hata no kokoro)
Satori Komeji At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Should be way stronger than a lot of underground youkai including rin. Shouldnt be that much weaker than koishi
Seija Kijin At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Encouraged people to break spell card rules to capture her. Pretty strong youkai. Scales above yoshika)
Yoshika At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Intimidating youkai, guardian to seija, possibly comparable to kogasa)

Remaining changes:
Alice and patchouli being 9-B physically with tier 2 magic
Keine possibly becoming tier 2 in both keys since shes the protector of the village either way

So what does everyone reading think about this? Any questions or suggestions?

@Promestein @Theglassman12 @CrimsonStarFallen @DarkDragonMedeus

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Promestein]

I don't care.

 

[RethPo]

Welp it dont look like theres gonna be any more knowledgeable member or staff approval than there already is. The building feat is approved and the scalings been seemingly agreed generally.

The only thing thats up for question is this storm creation feat which im not sure if its useable under wiki standards... can you give anything on that ant (or anyone else)?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The feat itself should be fine; the primary issue with storm feats is scaling to physical stats like durability and striking strength. So until I get off my ass and finish the UES thread, I think it'd just be considered environmental destruction.

So for the time being, I believe we could just apply 8-C, give Raiko a rating of "low 7-B with environmental destruction", and call it a day.

Of course, resolving Keine's tiering issue and getting Cirno's freezing feats calced would be nice as well, but I'm not gonna push it.

 

[RethPo]

Guess thatd be the best option then.
Id be fine with upgrading keine tbf if her low 2-C justification literally applies to her base key.
@Antvasima Since it doesnt seem theres any more staff giving imput, and the 8-C calcs been approved and every knowledgeable member involved here has agreed with the upgrades, should it be safe for me to make the changes? No profiles need unlocking.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that is hopefully fine in this case, yes.

 

[RethPo]

Aight its all done. Updated keines profile as well even

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

At long last.... we're finally out of wall level hell....

I suppose that's everything then since I don't see much value in calcing Cirno's freezing feats yet if we can't scale them to anyone. This thread can probably be closed unless I'm missing something.

 

[RethPo]

Saikou reccomended on discord actually calcing okuus sun in hisoutensoku which has gravity and the mass from it actually... which would theoretically bump cirno to tier 6 since she fought okuu... though thatd prolly be an outlier tbh...

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Honestly wouldn't be a bad idea to calc it but I don't really see it getting accepted. Would probably just fall under the category of Suika's black hole where technically anyone can survive it, but it operates under fighting game logic so it's kinda useless for scaling.

But if we somehow get Cirno back up to tier 6 it'll be really funny so let's do it anyways.

 

[RethPo]

Honestly wouldn't be a bad idea to calc it but I don't really see it getting accepted. Would probably just fall under the category of Suika's black hole where technically anyone can survive it, but it operates under fighting game logic so it's kinda useless for scaling.

But if we somehow get Cirno back up to tier 6 it'll be really funny so let's do it anyways.

Eh im prolly done here... like generally around the wiki so i cant promise ill be there

Well saikous argument actually is that suikas black hole is just kinda pulling you in so it only scales to her. While the sun is being directly tanked, canceled out and stuff... You can try if ya want.

 

[RethPo]

Wait just a damn minute looking at ants edit..........
@Antvasima Was class supposed to have a capital C? I thought it had to be lower case like level and that was a mistake 0_0

 

[DaReaperMan]

Wait just a damn minute looking at ants edit..........
@Antvasima Was class supposed to have a capital C? I thought it had to be lower case like level and that was a mistake 0_0

Yep, Class has capital C lol

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Eh im prolly done here... like generally around the wiki so i cant promise ill be there

Well saikous argument actually is that suikas black hole is just kinda pulling you in so it only scales to her. While the sun is being directly tanked, canceled out and stuff... You can try if ya want.

Ah, that's unfortunate. You'll definitely be missed, you seem pretty cool.

I'll probably do a rough calc of the sun when I get the time, good to know it isn't entirely impossible to scale to.

 

[RethPo]

Ugh... i might go back and edit them c's back so ant doesnt have to Edit: Okay it done lol

I mean i have my discord linked on my fandom profile and im always there but aight!

 

[Psychomaster35]

Pretty sure even if we did calc Utsuko’s suns, they would not be that impressive given how even if we were to assume that sun is 1 meter in radius and I try to get the GBE, it is actually less than a joule. However, the KE might be something.

 

[RethPo]

Pretty sure even if we did calc Utsuko’s suns, they would not be that impressive given how even if we were to assume that sun is 1 meter in radius and I try to get the GBE, it is actually less than a joule. However, the KE might be something.

Well there is a really old calc for a much larger sun okuu made and it was high 6-A, though it seemed to be more on how much energy it produced or something...

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This is the sun we're talking about, I think.

Probably not as impressive as the Subterranean Animism sun though.

 

[Psychomaster35]

That was the sun I was referring to as 1 meter in radius and getting the GBE out of it

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh, well I'm an idiot then. I was assuming the calc was relying on the size of the sun at the end of its expansion, not immediately after Utsuho fires it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump, I think this thread can be closed now, all the changes have been applied and all we're really doing at this point is talking about calcs that'll maybe happen in the future. I don't see much of a reason for it to stay open.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Yes, imma ask to get it closed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this thread then.

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.