Touhou low tier revision

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

They get run over with the train, then the train explodes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Feat is not usable tho, given that is a Tier 2 who is using it.

Snip

We want these tho.

Sumireko pulling down radio towers with her telekinesis

Nitori creating a giant water dragon,

The dragon is just her manipulating the water to make it shaped like a Dragon.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't see how Yukari's peak AP would affect the AP of her just tossing shit out of her gaps and it exploding. This isn't a universe-busting train we're talking about here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't see how Yukari's peak AP would affect the AP of her just tossing shit out of her gaps and it exploding. This isn't a universe-busting train we're talking about here.

It's not that every single Tier 2 needs to bust the universe with their attacks. You're the one to prove that Yukari was holding back to THAT much extend. AoE exists and is proven from Tier 5-2 not always destroying everything while fighting each other, but their attacks always being that strong. An example is Pokémon, you see Arceus busting the area against the Creation Trio with its attacks while Bloodlusted, but every hit of it doesn't destroy the Earth if hitting the ground despite being of Tier 2 potency.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I think I could've explained this a bit better.

Basically, I'm not convinced the train is something Yukari really scales to in any way. She just summons it out of her gaps, it crashes, and explodes. At no point in this process is Yukari using her power to directly influence the attack beyond just summoning it.

It's just summoning more than anything; it doesn't matter what tier Yukari is at, her AP has nothing to do with it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think I could've explained this a bit better.

Basically, I'm not convinced the train is something Yukari really scales to in any way. She just summons it out of her gaps, it crashes, and explodes. At no point in this process is Yukari using her power to directly influence the attack beyond just summoning it.

It's just summoning more than anything; it doesn't matter what tier Yukari is at, her AP has nothing to do with it.

Yukari still treats it as one of her attacks if it's even under a spell card. Yukari can't arbitrary have as one of her actual techniques a tier 9-8 attack. It's not a casual attack from her. And yes, objects can be launched with Tier 2 power, it's fiction after all.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What? Of course Yukari can put her attacks at lower levels than her peak; not every universal character has to show that level of power in every fight. In fact, they rarely do.

The entire point of the spell card rules is to be non-lethal, even if she could summon ordinary objects and somehow imbue them with universe breaking power, she wouldn't because killing people is bad (it's not like running people over with an exploding train is much better but at least it doesn't kill them).

Granted, if the majority opinion is that this cannot be used, there's not much I can do against that. I just personally disagree with this interpretation (We have better feats anyways).

 

[StrymULTRA]

What? Of course Yukari can put her attacks at lower levels than her peak; not every universal character has to show that level of power in every fight. In fact, they rarely do.

The entire point of the spell card rules is to be non-lethal, even if she could summon ordinary objects and somehow imbue them with universe breaking power, she wouldn't because killing people is bad (it's not like running people over with an exploding train is much better but at least it doesn't kill them).

Granted, if the majority opinion is that this cannot be used, there's not much I can do against that. I just personally disagree with this interpretation (We have better feats anyways).

It still damages every other character and Yukari still uses it as an actual attack, on par with her other techniques.

So you either accept that the train is launched with 2-C power or the whole of Touhou gets downgraded to Tier 9-8 as they count trains ramming in them as actual treats.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

what if we just upgraded everyone in the verse to 2-C instead

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. It would probably be best if I did a bit more digging into the specifics of the spell card rules for future discussions like this. At least I haven't seen any objections to Raiko's storm feat, Sumireko's radio tower ESP, or Nitori's water dragon.

 

[Shmooply]

Just to pour more salt on the wounds, it's pretty obvious Yukari isn't following spell card rules in that game, since one of her supers is her using gaps to cut the playable cast in half.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Asked to PsychoMaster to calc these.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The spell card rules are ******* wack sometimes so I just interpret it as "literally anything is fair game if you aren't outright killing your opponent".

 

[Shmooply]

except its pretty obvious that shes tRYING TO KILL THEM

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Nah its cool she just puts them back together.

She even does it to herself just for the hell of it.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Agreeing with getting the low tiers out of 9-B, by the way.

 

[StrymULTRA]

8-C Nitori hm.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Eyyyy, nice. That's a pretty solid upgrade over what we have now.

 

[RethPo]

@Jasonsith @Psychomaster35 Btw. You agree with the downgrade in the op? Should be an easy edit.
Guessing you agree with raikos storm being used too?

It's not that every single Tier 2 needs to bust the universe with their attacks. You're the one to prove that Yukari was holding back to THAT much extend. AoE exists and is proven from Tier 5-2 not always destroying everything while fighting each other, but their attacks always being that strong. An example is Pokémon, you see Arceus busting the area against the Creation Trio with its attacks while Bloodlusted, but every hit of it doesn't destroy the Earth if hitting the ground despite being of Tier 2 potency.

Yukari still treats it as one of her attacks if it's even under a spell card. Yukari can't arbitrary have as one of her actual techniques a tier 9-8 attack. It's not a casual attack from her. And yes, objects can be launched with Tier 2 power, it's fiction after all.

I really dont see what the big deal here is. We accept things like cell casually slapping hercule as a wall feat but were not gonna accept this because the characters too strong? Yeah arceus hitting a character who doesnt scale to him, with a casual attack that shows building level power would still scale that character to building level.

Yukari is straight up holding back. None of her spellcards ever kills her opponent (not even cutting people in half. Shes just doing weird shit with portals there...). We dont know how shed use that attack in a serious fight. But no matter whether shes holding back or not theres literally no way the train exploding into nothing can be below tier 8 when someones tanking it. It doesnt suddenly mean tier 2 characters scale to only the aoe of the train or fodder characters scale to its full potential as if it was a serious attack from her. Your logic of 9-Bs scaling to it as a full power attack or tier 2s being downgraded is literally implying that every instance of 9-Bs taking hits from tier 2s under scr is an outlier and not the characters just holding back and not using tier 2 attacks...

 

[RethPo]

Eyyyy, nice. That's a pretty solid upgrade over what we have now.

Btw who scales to nitori or kappas generally again? Theyre not mega strong characters sooo...

 

[StrymULTRA]

I really dont see what the big deal here is. We accept things like cell casually slapping hercule as a wall feat but were not gonna accept this because the characters too strong?

Cell was casual and we scale Satan to that casual Cell, who was physically just 9-B there. Cell was himself holding back to these levels. We have a thing called Ki control my dude, stop using Dragon Ball for other verses.

Yukari is straight up holding back. None of her spellcards ever kills her opponent (not even cutting people in half. Shes just doing weird shit with portals there...). We dont know how shed use that attack in a serious fight. But no matter whether shes holding back or not theres literally no way the train exploding into nothing can be below tier 8 when someones tanking it. It doesnt suddenly mean tier 2 characters scale to only the aoe of the train or fodder characters scale to its full potential as if it was a serious attack from her.

You don't understand my point. I'm saying that her train attack is treated as an attack on par with the others, so it'd be logical that just a train running is = to all her other attacks.

Your logic of 9-Bs scaling to it as a full power attack or tier 2s being downgraded is literally implying that every instance of 9-Bs taking hits from tier 2s under scr is an outlier and not the characters just holding back and not using tier 2 attacks...

It is without further explanation of them literally holding themselves back to such level like Cell example.

 

[RethPo]

You don't understand my point. I'm saying that her train attack is treated as an attack on par with the others, so it'd be logical that just a train running is = to all her other attacks.
It is without further explanation of them literally holding themselves back to such level like Cell example.

I see what you mean. Itd mean her train would have that kind of power along with her other attacks while shes fighting at full power yeah, and would be relative to her attacks when holding back as well. But theres two issues here.

Under spellcard rules, a system that canonically requires you do not kill your opponent, that attack and all her others would still be weakened. Scr are a literal in verse explanation as to why characters hold back to a certain level and you dont see the most powerful characters demolishing almost everyone and why everyone loses if they get hit 3 times. Shes not going to put tier 2 killing power into an attack thats hitting a tier 9/8.

More importantly though... it doesnt scale to her other attacks. She does it through summoning a train from the outside world (where logic and normal physics is prominent and where it makes no sense for a train there to explode or hit with that much force to begin with) and not influencing with her own power.
It "damaging" people more than her other attacks is under spellcard rules, where characters win by producing danmaku patterns and hitting the other enough times. Actual physical power is virtually irrelevent in them. Shes not actually doing any real physical damage to anybody with that attack and we havent even seen her get serious with that attack.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Under spellcard rules, a system that canonically requires you do not kill your opponent, that attack and all her others would still be weakened. Scr are a literal in verse explanation as to why characters hold back to a certain level and you dont see the most powerful characters demolishing almost everyone and why everyone loses if they get hit 3 times. Shes not going to put tier 2 killing power into an attack thats hitting a tier 9/8.

So you're saying she's holding back to Tier 9/8 like Cell did with Mr. Satan, with an explicit explanation for that?

More importantly though... it doesnt scale to her other attacks. She does it through summoning a train from the outside world (where logic and normal physics is prominent and where it makes no sense for a train there to explode or hit with that much force to begin with) and not influencing with her own power.
It "damaging" people more than her other attacks is under spellcard rules, where characters win by producing danmaku patterns and hitting the other enough times. Actual physical power is virtually irrelevent in them. Shes not actually doing any real physical damage to anybody with that attack and we havent even seen her get serious with that attack.

Wouldn't it completely mess up Touhou scaling and stats in general if physicals don't scale? Tho despite not making sense in a conventional sense, in fiction it would make sense for a train to be launched with 2-C power, as it literally comes through her portal, so it being empowered that much isn't really too far for an interpretation from it.

 

[RethPo]

So you're saying she's holding back to Tier 9/8 like Cell did with Mr. Satan, with an explicit explanation for that?

I mean... Characters holding back and making the fight fair under spellcard rules should be just as much of an explanation as something like ki control if you ask me

Wouldn't it completely mess up Touhou scaling and stats in general if physicals don't scale? Tho despite not making sense in a conventional sense, in fiction it would make sense for a train to be launched with 2-C power, as it literally comes through her portal, so it being empowered that much isn't really too far for an interpretation from it.

Not really. Physicals dont scale under spellcard rules unless a character genuinely damages someone (like in cast hurting mokou) or theyre implied to have some kind of rivalry (though thats bs a lot of the time if ya ask me) or outright stated comparable under other circumstances. It doesnt break the scaling but leaves a lot of unknowns. If anything physicals scaling would break is since cirno can beat a few tier 2s.

And no... her portals are never treat as being capable of empowering something, its literally just manipulating gaps to have a train from the outside world hit you and potentially explode. She might to some extent manipulate the attack but theres nothing suggesting it being infused with her own power.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean... Characters holding back and making the fight fair under spellcard rules should be just as much of an explanation as

K

And no... her portals are never treat as being capable of empowering something, its literally just manipulating gaps to have a train from the outside world hit you and potentially explode. She might to some extent manipulate the attack but theres nothing suggesting it being infused with her own power.

I mean, it's still an actual attack from her perspective.

 

[RethPo]

Iii guess?

Anyways... itd be gud to figure out how ho scales to sumireko (depending on whether she can scale to the train or if radio towers gives something decent) and nitori (at minimum tengu and other stronger youkai should scale).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If we're scaling tengu to Nitori then I guess Momiji would count. Only other notable kappa in the series is Takane.

Like I said before, I don't think there's much we can do in the way of actual scaling chains here. We kiiiinda just have to do what we're already doing and just have a bunch of "should be comparable" justifications, unless we wanna completely rework the way we treat Touhou scaling.

 

[RethPo]

Well there still needs to be some basis for “should be comparable”.

Kappas are portrayed as being pretty strong and able to easy overpower most humans in sumo wrestling if they play fair going by the wiki... So theyre kinda treat more street level in their own verse

So maybe any character or youkai whos portrayed as being impressively powerful can scale

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think I may calc the train explosion, sounds pretty simple.

Edit: Where is stated the "not kill" thing? I may add it to avoid discussions like these. Is this?

 

[RethPo]

Well to help with calcing

https://www.worldsteel.org/steel-by-topic/steel-markets/transport.html Steel makes up 15% of a trains mass (likely carraiges as well)

https://aluminiuminsider.com/aluminium-use-production-trains-steams-ahead/ And apparently 5 tonnes of alluminium per carraige

I could give you the trains mass but... the results i got were very, very varying.

I found extremely varying results for the weight of train carraiges from many places going from 15 to 80 tons going by quora results. Though here it says that the average weight of an empty passenger car would be around 68 to 72 tons (more than a tank!). And here for a pretty light train its about 48 to 51 tonnes. Lower end mayyy be better to use here especially for a lowball.

Sooo probably anywhere from 15 to 50 tonnes.

The glass/plastic windows in yukaris train could be pixel scaled. This is a good reference as to what the windows are made of.

Edit: And yeah, that is mainly where spell card rules would be established

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Edit: Where is stated the "not kill" thing? I may add it to avoid discussions like these. Is this?

From the thing you linked.
I know it says 'human', but given the massive canonical number of non-humans who have gotten their ass beat under spell card rules and are still alive and well, I think this could reasonably extend to everyone.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well to help with calcing

https://www.worldsteel.org/steel-by-topic/steel-markets/transport.html Steel makes up 15% of a trains mass (likely carraiges as well)

https://aluminiuminsider.com/aluminium-use-production-trains-steams-ahead/ And apparently 5 tonnes of alluminium per carraige

I could give you the trains mass but... the results i got were very, very varying.


Sooo probably anywhere from 15 to 50 tonnes.

The glass/plastic windows in yukaris train could be pixel scaled. This is a good reference as to what the windows are made of.

Edit: And yeah, that is mainly where spell card rules would be established

That doesn't really matter as trains already are already calculated. I'd say to use the Low Low end of the Freight train, given how small it is. However, I'm interested in only the explosion.

 

[RethPo]

Butters calcs 0_0

Ehhh sure. I think you still need to have most of the materials used in the train to calc the explosion since pulverising the train is where the main feat is.

 

[Shmooply]

calc made by butter

Me no likey.

 

[Psychomaster35]

That doesn't really matter as trains already are already calculated. I'd say to use the Low Low end of the Freight train, given how small it is. However, I'm interested in only the explosion.

I thought Butter was banned from calculating?

Though then again, I do personally believe that some of his calcs may have been correct, so some of them may need to be reposted.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah, butter got banned from calcing and left the wiki because he got called out on his BS

 

[StrymULTRA]

I thought Butter was banned from calculating?

Though then again, I do personally believe that some of his calcs may have been correct, so some of them may need to be reposted.

Btw, since you here, can you add Sumireko surviving the explosion? Best visual with a low tier who scales is here.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Btw, since you here, can you add Sumireko surviving the explosion? Best visual with a low tier who scales is here.

Sure thing

 

[RethPo]

And since a staff is here. You think its safe to make that downgrade to the two magicians profiles?

 

[Psychomaster35]

Neutral on that really. Plus, I am not the type of staff you should be asking, as that is for a Thread Moderator which is of higher order than me.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Did Yukari’s Train Two explosion, and I’m not really surprised of how low it is.