Touhou low tier revision

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Damn, here i hoping for 8-B Touhou but i guess it would'nt happen soon

 

[Psychomaster35]

All my calcs are done, but Im kinda disappointed especially with Sumireko’s feat

At least Building doesnt hurt

 

[RethPo]

Did Yukari’s Train Two explosion, and I’m not really surprised of how low it is.

Not suprised by the radio tower...

Uhhh... wouldnt it be way higher if you factor in the carraiges themselves actually exploding?
Like, the violent frag or pulv of all those materials?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

High end of building level ain't bad, a little disappointed by the other results. Thanks for helping out though.

I guess now we need to figure out who we're scaling to what, unless we just accept Raiko's storm creation as the new baseline for non-fairy low tiers.

 

[RethPo]

Also nitori is 0.005 tons away from, and only needs to be 1.004775205490494871 times her feat calced to be building level+...
I think she can either upscale to building level+ from that, or at the minimum anybody who scales above her would be building+

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah if the difference is that small I think building level+ works fine.

 

[StrymULTRA]

We don't do that. Novel Kars did his 6-B+ (I mean reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally high in it) feat casually and he's not High 6-B. Neither Nitori should. At best only who upscales from her should be 8-C+.

 

[RethPo]

Yeah. Same with batman, hes super close to building level and only characters like deathstroke who are stronger get an 8-C rating from it. Even though i agree with kars being high 6-B if he did it casually. Also did we do that with sonic once?

 

[RethPo]

Wouldnt it be way higher if you factor in the carraiges themselves actually exploding?
Like, the violent frag or pulv of all those materials?

Still got this question about the train calc psycho made and why were only just calcing the explosion size and not the train being destroyed.

 

[RethPo]

Gonna see if saikous finished shopping for milk and ask him to give sum help with the sca-...

Hes retired

(Eh welp ill see if hell give something anyways, he should know a lot about the scaling stuff)

 

[Psychomaster35]

All calcs have been accepted, so now we can assure the lowest tiers go up to Building

 

[RethPo]

Most of them can get there yeah. Ill figure out a list for who scales later... but shouldnt yukaris train be more pulverisation (at least as a high end) than violent frag? Since theres basically nothing left

 

[Psychomaster35]

Most of them can get there yeah. Ill figure out a list for who scales later... but shouldnt yukaris train be more pulverisation (at least as a high end) than violent frag? Since theres basically nothing left

The remaining parts were most likely scattered everywhere at fast speeds, so we have to assume violent fragmentation at default since the explosion blocks the debris.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So 8-C+ Low tier Touhou? Not bad

 

[StrymULTRA]

There's the Low 7-B stuff too.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

There's the Low 7-B stuff too.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

All calcs have been accepted, so now we can assure the lowest tiers go up to Building

Thank you for all your help here.

Anyways, I guess now we just need to determine who scales to what.

 

[RethPo]

Uhuh... Well both calcs being building makes my job easier at least!
Heres the upgrades so far then

Building level (maybe a + rating if theyre no doubt stronger than nitori?): Either scaling to kappas or tanking a train explosion
Koishi Komeji
Satori Komeji (Scales to koishi who tanked the train)
Sumireko usami (not sure if more people scale to her)
Shion yorigami
joon yorigami
Shinmyoumaru (train tanking and maybe scales above kappa?)

Nitori
Reisen (Incident resolver making her somewhere in gensokyos power balance. Should be comparable to or stronger than kappa)
Momiji (tengu are stronger than kappa)
Iku Nagae (Has a portion of dragon god power, lives above the mountain and watches over weather, shouldnt be weaker than kappa)
En'era (Powerful youkai that had to be sealed)
Giant toad (Lives on the mountain. Youkai who live on the mountain including tengu and kappa are afraid of it. Should also have cold resistance btw)
Hong Meiling (Served as a guard to the sdm before scr. Should be able to fend off decently strong youkai)
Seija Kijin (Encouraged people to break spell card rules to capture her. Pretty strong youkai)
Letty whiterock second key (Yeah i think we should downgrade letty. Her justification is that "her power would create an incident" which already listed wall levels can do. It doesnt require you to be top tier at all. Even saikou agreed with downgrading this in the past but never got down to doing so. It could still make her building level)
Parsee Mizuhashi (Guards the bridge to the underworld which is already near the mountain and should scale to strong youkai)

Could scale but im unsure about:
Hata no Kokoro (She created an incident and i think is pretty strong)
Hina Kagiyama (Guards the youkai mountain and scares humans off)
Yamame Kurodani (Youkai underground are strong and dangerous by youkai standards. Although characters like kisume could scale by that logic, but little is known about kisume except shes a stage 1 midboss)
Rin Kaenbyou (is the stage 5 boss and shouldnt be much weaker than the other underworld youkai)
(Tsukumogami are quite strong rite?)
Minamitsu Murasa (Prolly quite strong going by her profile)
Eternity Larva (We dont even know if shes an actual weak fairy, or potentially a freaking god. LOTS TO GO OFF OF HERE!!!)
Soga no Tojiko (one of mikos followers. Thats all i have)
Mai Teireida and Satono Nishida (Partly powered by onika so prolly quite strong)

Small city level storm creation scaling:
Raiko Horikawa
Yatsuhashi tsukumo
Benben tsukumo
Maybe Kogasa Tatara (Same species)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay, wait, I just checked Raiko's profile and the 'fraction of an oni's power' thing is being taken completely out of context. Here's her omake.txt from DDC.

It pretty clearly states that she used to be empowered by the Miracle Mallet (the source of the oni power or whatever), but rejected that power in exchange for a new source of power more akin to other tsukumogami, and now she has none of that oni power left. So this should at the very least scale to other tsukumogami, and likely every other low tier. However, she should probably lose her 'likely far higher' rating as a result.

 

[RethPo]

I see then... Okay so other tsukumogami should likely scale... how does this scale to every other low tier exactly? (Doubt it would go beyond some of the people i listed anyway)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'd have to check to see if there are any scaling chains stemming from Kokoro and Kogasa. But I think it'd be weird for a handful of random tsukumogami to be overwhelmingly stronger than most other youkai.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Kogasa fought with Yoshika, and considered her a threat.

Kokoro considers Koishi a rival, and previously lost to her (we already scale Hatate to Aya on this basis). Of course, Satori also scales by extension.

This isn't a whole lot to go off of but it should at least prove that low 7-B isn't specific to tsukumogami.

 

[RethPo]

The fight was under scr if i recall correctly, though it would scale to seiga as a result. Dont think itd go beyond that especially since seiga used to be high 4-C with nobody scaling.

I mean i do already find aya and hatates scaling questionable when the rivalry is entirely based on media and newspapers.
For koishis rivalry... maybeee? Though a little vague at least it implies a more combatitive rivalry. Iiii dunno who else scales to koishi and satori, but its something.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Fair point about Yoshika, though I still think being considered a threat by Kogasa has little to do with scr and is probably a little more reliable for scaling. The main point here was to prove that other low tier youkai can be on roughly the same level as tsukumogami.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, instead of struggling with vague scaling chains, would changing the profiles to something like "at least 8-C, likely low 7-B" work? (excluding the characters who more explicitly scale to tsukumogami of course).

 

[RethPo]

Possibly ratings arent a bad idea. Will have to get to this tomorrow though.

Although looking at tsukumodnomangirgftfff youkai on the wiki theyre mostly objects thatve been posessed by gods and become vengeful, with many different types of youkai under that category so im a little unsure about scaling all of them. Hata is also a tsuku type btw.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I still think "at least 8-C, possibly low 7-B" is our best option here since most youkai lack definitive scaling. Might as well just present a range of the lowest viable low tier youkai feat to the highest.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Psychomaster35]

Should we get more staff input on this?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Probably, yeah. Promestein was asking for calcs earlier so she may respond now that we have them.

 

[RethPo]

Aight so heres what i have:
Building level (a + rating if theyre no doubt stronger than nitori whos 0.004 times weaker than 8-C+): Either scaling to kappas or tanking a train explosion
Seiran At least Wall level, likely Building level (Superior to cirno. Shouldnt be too far behind moon rabbits like reisen)
Ringo At least Wall level, likely Building level (Superior to cirno. Shouldnt be too far behind moon rabbits like reisen)
Rei'sen At least Wall level, likely Building level (Superior to cirno. Shouldnt be too far behind moon rabbits like reisen. Is a replacement to reisen as well)
Parsee Mizuhashi At least Building level+, likely higher (Guards the bridge to the underworld which is already near the mountain and should scale to strong youkai)
Hina Kagiyama At least Building level (Guards the youkai mountain and scares humans off, shouldnt be too far behind kappa as a result)
Yamame Kurodani At least Building level, likely higher (Youkai underground are strong and dangerous by youkai standards so they should at least be comparable. Although characters like kisume could scale by that logic, but little is known about kisume except shes a stage 1 midboss)
Rin Kaenbyou At least Building level, likely higher (is the stage 5 boss and should be comparable to if not stronger than the other underworld youkai)
(Tsukumogami are quite strong rite?)
Nitori Building level (For her feat)
Minamitsu Murasa At least Building level, likely higher (Quite strong going by her profile)
Sumireko usami At least Building level (Took yukaris train. Not sure if shes mega strong otherwise or scales beyond nitori)
Shion yorigami At least Building level, likely higher
joon yorigami At least Building level, likely higher (Same as sumireko)
Shinmyoumaru At least Building level, likely higher (Scales to train. Maybe she could have a +? Not sure)
Reisen At least Building level, likely higher (Incident resolver making her somewhere in gensokyos power balance. Should be at least comparable to kappa)
Eternity Larva At least Building level, likely far higher (Way more powerful than most fairies and is speculated to even be a god. Unknown how strong she is compared to other youkai but shouldnt be weaker than kappa based on her explanation)
Tanned Cirno At least Building level+, likely far higher (Wayyy stronger than before. Should be stronger than eternity partly powered by onika)
Momiji At least Building level+, likely higher (tengu are stronger than kappa and some of the stronger youkai in gensokyo)
Iku Nagae At least Building level+, possibly far higher (Has a portion of dragon god power, lives above the mountain and watches over weather, shouldnt be weaker than kappa)
En'era At least Building level+, likely higher (Powerful youkai that had to be sealed)
Giant toad At least Building level+, likely higher (Lives on the mountain. Youkai who live on the mountain including tengu and kappa are afraid of it. Should also have cold resistance btw)
Hong Meiling At least Building level+, likely higher (Served as a guard to the sdm before scr. Should be able to fend off decently strong youkai)
Nemuno At least Building level, likely higher (Strong youkai living on the youkai mountain and should at least scale to the kappa that live there
Letty whiterock second key At least Building level, likely higher (Should be downgraded. Her justification is that "her power would create an incident" which already listed wall levels can do. It doesnt require you to be top tier at all. Even saikou agreed with downgrading this in the past but never got down to doing so. It could still make her building level)

Characters im still pretty unsure about:
Soga no Tojiko At least building level? (one of mikos followers. Thats all i have)
Mai Teireida and Satono Nishida At least Building level+, possibly far higher (Partly powered by onika so prolly quite strong)

Small city level storm creation scaling:
Raiko Horikawa Low 7-B
Yatsuhashi tsukumo Low 7-B (her and benben were created in the same way as raiko iirc so they should scale)
Benben tsukumo Low 7-B
Kogasa Tatara At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Should be stronger than kappa such as nitori. Potentially scales to tsukumogami such as raiko)
Hata no Kokoro At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Should be stronger than kappa, may scale to tsukumogami such as raiko)
Koishi Komeji At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Considered a rival to hata no kokoro)
Satori Komeji At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Should be way stronger than a lot of underground youkai including rin. Shouldnt be that much weaker than koishi
Seija Kijin At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Encouraged people to break spell card rules to capture her. Pretty strong youkai. Scales above yoshika)
Yoshika At least 8-C+, possibly low 7-B (Intimidating youkai, guardian to seija, possibly comparable to kogasa)

Remaining changes:
Alice and patchouli being 9-B physically with tier 2 magic
Keine possibly becoming tier 2 in both keys since shes the protector of the village either way

So what does everyone reading think about this? Any questions or suggestions?

 

[Shmooply]

Looks fine at a glance.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Looks mostly good, would still like some input from staff. Personally speaking, the only changes I would make would be to give Koishi, Satori, Kogasa, Yoshika, and Kokoro just a flat low 7-B rating and give everyone else a rating of 'at least 8-C, at most/possibly low 7-B'. Everything else looks solid though and I'll be fine with whatever staff accepts.

I don't remember Yoshika ever being a guardian for Seija though? You may be confusing her with Seiga.

 

[RethPo]

Looks mostly good, would still like some input from staff. Personally speaking, the only changes I would make would be to give Koishi, Satori, Kogasa, Yoshika, and Kokoro just a flat low 7-B rating and give everyone else a rating of 'at least 8-C, at most/possibly low 7-B'. Everything else looks solid though and I'll be fine with whatever staff accepts.

I don't remember Yoshika ever being a guardian for Seija though? You may be confusing her with Seiga.

Mhm.... why possibly low 7-B for all of them though? I can maybe see your point with nearly top tier youkai like tengu if it doesnt make much sense for a lot of those characters to be weaker then tsukumogami... And the reason i didnt give them flat low 7-B is because tsukumogami could vary and same species doesnt automatically make you scale. Tengu being a good example.

Oh... iiiiii dont know much about the character and misread the profile, mb!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Alright, this looks fine so i agree with the new scaling

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Fair enough. Like I said, I'll be fine with whatever gets accepted, I'm just of the opinion that since most youkai don't really directly scale to anyone, giving them AP that ranges from the lowest feat performed by a low tier youkai to the highest would be reasonable. We're already giving them 'likely higher' and I just think using low 7-B to represent how much 'higher' the stats actually could be makes sense.

 

[RethPo]

Mhm. Ill still wait a while before making any hasty changes incase anybody has any takes. Like whether someone should have a + rating or not or if someone should be added. (Remember a low 2-C letty is getting there key downgraded as well. I could make the edit to alice and patchys profiles while im at it since it seems everyones agreed on it)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh right, what are we doing about the fairies? I take it they're not being scaled to any of this? I personally think we could maybe scale Cirno to Eternity (minus the 'likely higher') and downscale other fairies from her.

And yeah I agree with all the proposed downgrades. What tier are Alice and Patchouli getting downgraded to?

 

[RethPo]

Oh right, what are we doing about the fairies? I take it they're not being scaled to any of this? I personally think we could maybe scale Cirno to Eternity (minus the 'likely higher') and downscale other fairies from her.

It could give cirno a possibly rating buttt..... i dont think we can since eternity is just way stronger than any normal fairy (to the point where she could be considered tier 3/2 with more evidence). Cirnos only exceptionally strong for her kind. Only reason eternities that tier is because of how strong shes speculated to be.
Although i forgot, tanned cirno should more than likely scale to building+.

And yeah I agree with all the proposed downgrades. What tier are Alice and Patchouli getting downgraded to?

Alice and patchouli would be wall level (weak physically but at least stronger than fairies) and tier 2 with magic (rivals to marisa in that area, alice can hurt mokou with doll magic)