Touhou: Dream World and Stars

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

With Yamatohime and Andy out of the picture these Touhou threads should be going much faster, wouldn't they.

So last time, I attempted to upgrade Touhou based on the Dream World possessing S.T.A.R.S. I promptly got told that I have to "prove" that those stars were real and not just fake ones. Although several months after this, I realized that this view of things seemed like a big pile of nonsense. Indeed we have Magalor at 3-B based on vague background stuff, so...

Two important facts here.

1. Doremy can manipulate the dreams in the dream world and erase/create them at will.

2. The protagonist can navigate through this world fast enough as to have stars visibly move away from view. Clearly, they are moving interstellar distances.

It's unclear whether or not the stars are part of the Dream World so instead, I'll focus on the speed for now. (Although given that the players can travel interstellar distances and still be in the dream world it is still likely). Do note that Doremy seems to imply that the portion of the Dream World we have access to is the size of an "average" dream. So that could scale to her AP.

One could argue that we see the moon and earth in the background and that they are unmoving. However, in both Stage 3 and Extra Stage, the Earth/Moon suddenly pops into view in a flash. It isn't the protagonist actually flying towards the planetoid. Considering how Doremy can apparently choose where she "sends" the protagonist, it is very likely that the Earth/Noon aren't physically there. Beside "flying through space" seems like a common enough theme in LoLK.

If this is accepted, the protagonist's speed (And everyone who scales to them) would be all around MFTL+ (You aren't getting anything lower than that here). Moon rabbits in general too would scale to that. One could argue that even fodder fairies scale, as they fly as fast as the protag here, but this may be an outlier for them.

Playthrough of EX Stage and Stage 3 here.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I'm not against it. I mean every Touhou fight ends up speed equalized anyway. Typically.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Thanks CoB. At least someone cares about my thread ;-;

Bump by adding more information. Even if the Dream World IS a passageway, it isn't reasonable to assume that Doremy or whatever helped the player move faster in it, as her job was to PREVENT them from going further. She only changed her goals after she got beaten.

 

[DarkLordofShadows]

I completely agree with that.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

"With Yamatohime and Andy out of the picture these Touhou threads should be going much faster, wouldn't they."

Yup. The former doesn't seem active anymore and the latter is still on timeout~

Aside that in all seriousness, you're proposing MFTL+ speed due to flying past.....moons and stars, right?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well, just flying past stars. Like I said in the thread, it's likely that the moon isn't physically there and is more likely to just be a projection.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Ah.

Well if that's the case, i can see MFTL+ being used here for the more prominent ones of the verse. Fairies as you said can be a possible outlier for them but idk...

Considering this may affect pretty much most of the verse, wouldn't this be good to highlight this? Or at least get a couple other people to give their possible inputs here in?

 

[Promestein]

I don't really have much of an opinion on this. Seems fine, though, I guess.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Shrug. Maybe? I haven't highlighted anything yet, but having more input is good.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The first makes sense I guess.

"The protagonist can navigate through this world fast enough as to have stars visibly move away from view. Clearly, they are moving interstellar distances"

I don't get how this applies.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If you fly fast enough that distant stars just flies past you then you must be traveling interstellar distances, quickly at that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I mean, I guess, just seems weird to accept it as legit rather than some background nonsense.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Because they are actually flying through space here.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I guess I can agree, Saik.

 

[Ryukama]

But how do we know these stars aren't just planets or poorly drawn circles? ovo

In all seriousness if people can create/destroy/fully manipulate these worlds and they've shown to at least contain stars, then I agree with a 4-A rating to them. And if they can traverse through them and what not in somewhat short timeframes, MFTL+ is fine as well.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

It is a bit weird to imagine at first but then again pocket worlds already exist in Touhou. So it makes it a bit more credible.

Though this makes me wonder if you're trying to imply that Doremy can spatial manipulate like Komachi or if she's moving Earth and the moon at MFTL speeds.


That last part is hilarious to think about and definitely wrong.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I mean the Dream World is a pocket world like Gensokyo so it's likely a form of space manipulation.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Just watching this~

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Ah so distance manipulation then. As long as you're in there at least.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

As stated in the op, the AP stuff is a bit too speculative, but I wouldn't really have a problem with a speed buff. Though perhaps a "Possibly MFTL+" after their current speed due to the relatively vague nature.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Magalor thing makes me argue otherwise but I wont push it further. Fine with possibly mftl+ though.

 

[Lina_Shields]

The proposed changes seem reasonable.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I wouldn't call it vague. The only real vague parts would be whether or not the stars are inside the dream world, which matters little.

Just not a fan of "FTL with FTL* reaction/combat speed, possibly Massively FTL+" due to how clustered this look. Plain "Possibly Massively FTL+" or Likely.

 

[Antvasima]

I will inform DontTalk about this thread.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Didn't he say he didn't want to participate anymore in Touhou revision threads? Or did he change his moto? Though he seemed fine with debating hough. And honestly I think it's likely.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

DT specifically said about not wanting to participate in Touhou threads.

DK why Ant bothered to go and ask him but if he wants to something, he should. Otherwise, don't even bother.

Not trying to be rude to DT, I'm just saying that if he were to not want to do this anymore, then maybe he shouldn't. If he has something to say, then thats completely alright.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he seems to be very informed about Touhou.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

He is. The question is whether he'll bother to come here or not.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

There are other people informed about Touhou too that still want to respond to Touhou related things. Just giving his choice of choosing not to interact with Touhou revisions anymore. Of course if he wants to still that's cool too.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

More bump. I would like at least some more input.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Are there any other information that we need to know other than the videos that you have posted above? I will base my thoughts on the two videos you posted then.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well I put up most of the relevant information into the thread. But still some more I guess here:

In the same stage that I posted, Sanae says that they are in space with Doremy (The one who runs the place) later confirming it.

"Ah, I'm flying through space! I'm really flying right now!" -Sanae

"I'm flying through space like I've always wanted. If this is a nightmare, what would even count as a good dream?" -Sanae

"If your body is hit by space debris, it won't be pleasant." -Doremy

 

[Lina_Shields]

Let's check this thread...

• Going by the fact that that Doremy can indeed manipulate the dreams.
• Protagonist moving fast neough that stars visibly move away from view.

For the speed value, we do see from the beginning of the video that the stars are being located below the location of player. Here is a frame by frame basis on how the stars being passed by.


At 6 seconds

At 7 seconds

• In frame 1, a star that I circled is at one located
• In frame 2, a start that I circled is at a different location, this time a bit under the game screen.

So from a birds-eye perspective, you can say that the stars are located below the player character, and the character in question is actually passing the stars here.


What is happening in this situation is similar to an airplane passing from one point in a city to another point in a city while flying high up in the sky.

As for this, I can give this speed upgrade the go. Would this mean that everyone in Touhou gets their speed upgraded to Massively FTL+?

The quotes that Saikou posted makes the most sense in this situation, for the most part.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not everyone, but all those who scales to High 6-A, likely 5-A also gets the Massively FTL+ feat (Plus the moon rabbits), yes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why are they even "At least High 6-A", there seems to be multiple 5-B / 5-A feats around.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Because of a rather vague WoG statement about the Otherworlds being smaller in scope than Earth despite the fact that it was contradicted many times.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"When a statement from a character, guidebook, or even word of god contradicts what occurs in the series, they won't be used. For example, if an author says that a character from his work is incapable of shattering planets, even though it has destroyed galaxies on-screen, we will always go with the latter, rather than the former."
^ From our editing rules.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well I wasn't here when the "Likely" was decided, although I wouldn't mind a straight 5-A rating.

Can we proceed to MFTL+ upgrades at least? (Although I can't rn, I'll see once I get home.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Apparently Ant wants us to have DT have a say on this.

But seeing as he's not here yet if he's ever gonna bother, Ant just basically killed this thread of having someone who likely doesn't care about the verse in it's debate anymore.

I can go with having them as straight Tier 5 with MFTL+ speed then if DT doesn't say anything after today.