Touhou downgrade thread

[Malomtek]

Copying and pasting the below from a previous thread, with one contextualizing edit for the first sentence.

I don't agree with [saying that Eirin's spell card is able to contain "infinite" mass]. I don't even agree that Touhou should even be ranked as high as it is right now.

Touhou supporters, like the series itself, tend to use the term "infinite" very glibly. In a series as infamous for its hyperbolic and flowery language usage as Touhou is, we would need more proof for a universal power level than "oh but this character says such as such a thing is 'infinite' or whatever".

Even the "infinite corridor composed of spacetime" stuff reeks of hyperbole taken way too seriously. There doesn't seem to be any evidence for its "infinity" beyond a character statement and some circular reasoning done to justify that character statement. People are essentially stating as fact that Kaguya created an infinite universe hidden inside the Eientei estate, which is kind of an extraordinary claim that requires some pretty hard-hitting evidence, not just one-note character lines. There's also the fact that even if Kaguya were to have created an "infinite corridor composed of spacetime", then it looks more like spacetime hax than anything that solidly translates to attack power. The series itself certainly doesn't treat it like anything that translates to attack power, and we don't see any Gensokyo resident portrayed as a threat to the universe itself, something that would be a given if everyone of note in Gensokyo scales to a universal feat.

And believe me, nothing in Touhou whatsoever suggests some kind of universal power for Gensokyo residents, not even the weird "heaven-breaking" feat people claim for Suika. Characters aren't shaking the planet when they fight. They don't generate universal shockwaves in their danmaku battles. They aren't powering up and having that power felt across all of space. They generally just seem to top at a stellar level in realistic terms.

If we're going to just take hyperbole and flowery language seriously, then I guess the floodgates can now be opened not just for, for example, outerversal 2hus, but a lot of other shit that would be considered "wank" just a week ago.

Now to deal with this guy, for starters:

Oh and Tenshi shook all of Heaven with her power of humanity's temperament. And Joon and Shion also with the Perfect Possession incident were screwing up the dream world fundamentally. Doremy recreated the LoTB and netherworld in dreams which are established as reality.

So, there's a few things you want to go over, before retracting low 2-C from them.

1. Even assuming that these feats are being accurately presented or even real, there is no evidence that either Heaven or the Dream World are universal in size, or even extend that much farther than your average solar system. There's also the fact that "screwing up the dream world fundamentally" is presented in such a vague manner that it could mean anything, and certainly doesn't necessarily translate to universal attack power regardless.

2. The netherworld has never been established to be universal in size either, and I have no idea what the "LoTB" is supposed to be neither is there any evidence for the LoTB being "infinite" in size either (I certainly didn't find any on Doremy's profile). Dreams are also portrayed as rather separate from reality in the Touhou universe, and the verse's metaphysics aren't deep enough to give us some sort of Neil Gaiman/Grant Morrison style nonduality between reality and unreality, so I don't understand what "dreams which are established as reality" is supposed to mean either.

Edit: "LoTB" refers to "the Land of the Backdoor", I just found out.

AGREES WITH THE DOWNGRADES:

DISAGREES WITH THE DOWNGRADES:

UNDECIDED/NEUTRAL ON THE DOWNGRADES:

 

[Malomtek]

And another thing: why are we assuming that the "8 million gods" that took part in creating the universe correspond to any of the current deities that we see in Touhou in particular? There isn't much reason to assume the primordial creator gods are the same as the presently working gods.

If we assume that "8 million gods" refers to an innumerable number of deities, as it is often interpreted to be in Shinto, then it doesn't even mean any of them are necessarily universal to begin with. Each one of them could have just made a small piece of reality to add to the whole. If a character cuts out a small piece of space, or patches up a tear in space, for example, does that mean he's somehow universe level?

If we assume that "8 million gods" refers to literally 8 million deities, there's also the fact that the Touhou universe isn't confirmed to be of infinite size, and there is no indication that each deity performed equally to each other. Indeed, if one is to assume that these "8 million gods" refer also to the current deities of the Touhou universe, the fact that there are clear in-universe hierarchies and power rankings for these deities makes it impossible for all these "8 million gods" to have each done the same level of work. We don't seem to assume the size of any given universe as infinite by default here either.

If we assume that the primordial creator "8 million gods" correspond to any of the "primordial forms" of the present 2hu gods, then it seems clear that these "primordial forms" are so qualitatively different from their "regular" forms that they are essentially completely "lost" and inaccessible to any of the currently active deities. They might as well be different characters entirely, even. We don't see Junko threatening to use her "primordial form" on the Moon, or any of the lunar gods threatening to use their "primordial forms" on her, now do we?

 

[FanSyst]

Following

 

[Deleted member 11410]

Following too.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

I agree

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Alright, since I won't be online for much longer, thus rendering the 2hou's supporter to none, I'll give you a piece of my mind

Even the "infinite corridor composed of spacetime" stuff reeks of hyperbole taken way too seriously. There doesn't seem to be any evidence for its "infinity" beyond a character statement and some circular reasoning done to justify that character statement. People are essentially stating as fact that Kaguya created an infinite universe hidden inside the Eientei estate, which is kind of an extraordinary claim that requires some pretty hard-hitting evidence, not just one-note character lines. There's also the fact that even if Kaguya were to have created an "infinite corridor composed of spacetime", then it looks more like spacetime hax than anything that solidly translates to attack power. The series itself certainly doesn't treat it like anything that translates to attack power.

Hyperbole you say? No, something infinite isn't hyperbolic on 2Hou depending on the context

Here we have Hieda, one of the most accurate source of statement on the series, stating that the world is infinite.
And this doesn't contradict many things, specially things that has something to do with "Eternal"

Eirin	そう、外よ。 貴方達は永い廊下に導かれてここまで来た。 どう？ 外の空気は。	Yes, the outside. You were led through that eternal corridor, and came here. So, how's the air outside?

Eternal, is pretty much the equivalent of infinite

Eirin	ふん、ガキの癖に。 貴方みたいな幼い子供が永遠の民である 私に敵うはずが無いじゃない。 貴方の積み重ねてきた紅い歴史。 私の歴史で割れば、ゼロよ。 永久からみれば貴方は須臾。	Hmph, what a brat. Young children like yourself can't stand a chance against me, an eternal being. All the scarlet history that you've built up--- Divided by my history, the result is zero. From eternity's point of view, you are but a mere instant.

Let's say someone's age is 50, divide that by infinity, and it will become 0

Eirin	ここは偽の月と地上の間。 さっきの永い廊下は、偽の月と地上を 結ぶ偽物の通路。 貴方達は偽満月が生み出した幻像に 騙されてここまで来たのよ。	This place is between the false moon and the Earth. That endless corridor just now was a false passage that connects the two. You two were fooled by an illusion that the false full moon produced, and came here.

Also, the endless corridor doesn't exist inside Eientei, it strech out to the false moon.
Let's take a look another statement for this corridor that come from an outsider, so the statement is gonna unbiased

Miko	月の民に話があって やってきたんだが なるほど……永遠に続く廊下か これは微少な時空の隙間を 無限に繋げる力だな 月の民の力だろうな	Well, I'm here to speak with the People of the Moon. Ah, I see... a corridor that continues endlessly? Made with a power that infinitely links miniscule gaps in space-time together. The power of the Moon's residents, to be sure.

You may say that this is hax, and not AP, sure but it won't take off the L2-C rating from people

	Miko starts doing something flashy
Miko	……という事は 空間を扱う仙術の一種 という訳だ	...So I ought to use a type of hermit art that absorbs space, then.
Miko	私の手にかかれば この永遠の廊下の術を破るのは さほど難しい事では無い そこの兎！ 今からこの無限の罠を打破するが よろしいか？	If left up to me, breaking through this endless-corridor spell is hardly anything difficult. You! The rabbit over there! I'm about to break down this infinite trap; you don't mind, do you?

Miko, then proceed to absorb the infinite corridor, then stating that she can break through the infinite time space, thus rendering her AP L2-C/H3-A and this scales to pretty much everyone.

Hell
As I mentioned before, infinite isn't hyperbolic using the right context, specially things that has something to do with "Eternal"

Hell, is stated to be infinite and eternal, not once but a couple of times

Even Tenshi state that hell is stupidly huge, implying that hell being infinite isn't hyperbolic

Of course you'll never find it, it's infinite and eternal after all

The 8 Millions

If we assume that "8 million gods" refers to literally 8 million deities, there's also the fact that the Touhou universe isn't confirmed to be of infinite size, and there is no indication that each deity performed equally to each other. Indeed, if one is to assume that these "8 million gods" refer also to the current deities of the Touhou universe, the fact that there are clear in-universe hierarchies and power rankings for these deities makes it impossible for all these "8 million gods" to have each done the same level of work. We don't seem to assume the size of any given universe as infinite by default here either.

Hierarchy you said, the problem with that, it only apply to the physical world version of them, not their Primordial Forms, there's no indication (as far as I remembered) that there's a hierarchy of power in a state where concept doesn't even exist, the hierarchy of power here only applies to their physical world.

Why do we assume that the Primordials are L2-C? Well, there's an infinite sized space here, and Space=Time in 2hou, more info on that here, we can assume that there's one person that's able to create infinite space then scaling to the rest of the guys, since they're the same at this state.

If we assume that the primordial creator "8 million gods" correspond to any of the "primordial forms" of the present 2hu gods, then it seems clear that these "primordial forms" are so qualitatively different from their "regular" forms that they are essentially completely "lost" and inaccessible to any of the currently active deities. They might as well be different characters entirely, even. We don't see Junko threatening to use her "primordial form" on the Moon, or any of the lunar gods threatening to use their "primordial forms" on her, now do we?

Well actually, that key works when one's avatar got bodied so hard and then returned to their Primordial Forms, if you read the CRT till the end, you'll see that it's the purpose of adding the key in the first place.

The H3-A to L2-C Stuff

Even assuming that these feats are being accurately presented or even real, there is no evidence that either Heaven or the Dream World are universal in size, or even extend that much farther than your average solar system.

The Netherworld is larger than Hell and Heaven is larger than the Netherworld, and Hell is consistently stated to be infinite in size, so....

The Dreamworld, eh...,the Dreamworld is very well another reality, if you don't know

Then it should scale to the infinite sized world, also it contain the Land of Backdoors and Netherworld which is infinite in size...

And then we have Suika that breaks the Heaven, Doremy which control the Dream World, Eirin with her infinite mass Klein Bottle, Okina creating the land of backdoors, Tenshi shakes the heaven, Miko created infinite sized Senkai, etc...

Them not being "A Universal Threat"
Alright, listen, it's a common thing in fiction where one can bust a Universe but doesn't shake the Universe every time they fight, it's common.
Also, one wouldn't be a threat if there's someone that can immediately neutralize the threat, and that person would be our MCs, one wouldn't be a universal threat if there's a universal saver.

Side note: I'm not gonna be online for a while, I'm busy IRL and probably won't be online for a couple of days, take care and see ya, also, I can't believe I'm an Anos fan now.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Also, I just the context behind this and it's seems that someone is taunting you eh? Man, that person should apologize, just sayin

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Those statements on Hell, at least to me, imply that "Eternal" doesn't mean "infinite in size", but more referring to your suffering being infinite. Also Akyuu's statement sounds more like a statement on the various ideas out there, not the literal size of the universe.

If the universe was infinite, then Amitabha could not have a size larger than it that is stated to be a size less than infinite (6×10125 yojana tall)

Hell, from other places such as Neo Traditionalism of Japan is stated to not actually be that big as well, with Paradise being far larger. The only statement I can recall that specifically notes Hell's size is:

Hell Ain't That Big, unfortunately. And if Hell has a size that isn't infinite, then you can't scale Heaven or the Dream World to that, either.

Also, did they break out of the infinite corridor leading to the false moon or did it dump them out there? I legit don't remember. If it dumped them out, it might not even be infinite, but just long enough to lead to the fake moon because they wanted to buy time. I legit don't know this one.

Are you sure you're reffering to the right Hell? I don't remember, really

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Edit: Ignore this post

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Is this a poor excuse to gain more message? Yes it is

Those statements on Hell, at least to me, imply that "Eternal" doesn't mean "infinite in size", but more referring to your suffering being infinite. Also Akyuu's statement sounds more like a statement on the various ideas out there, not the literal size of the universe.

Just like as a said earlier, Eternal doesn't always mean infinite, and doesn't always mean infinite suffering, depends on context, yata yata.

If the universe was infinite, then Amitabha could not have a size larger than it that is stated to be a size less than infinite (6×10125 yojana tall)

Idk man, Amitabha could very well not exist, like at all

Hell Ain't That Big, unfortunately. And if Hell has a size that isn't infinite, then you can't scale Heaven or the Dream World to that, either.

I can, via Netherworld, Netherworld is larger than Hell, and Heaven is larger than the Netherworld

It just mentions "Hell". It could be mentioning "Former Hell"

I'm sure its former Hell since it's below the Earth and all

Again, Avici is rocking an infinite suffering thing, from all of those quotes.

With all the additional context (Eternal and Infinite), we can easily assume it's indeed infinite, since we also don't see an end to Avici either

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

1: The contexts of those messages don't rely on size, they rely on the suffering of the person in the realm. That doesn't necessarily need to be infinite in size to inflict those.

Depends on the context, really.

2: Ah man, you don't believe in Amitabha? Guess it's going to Gensokyo now! In all seriousness, though, while that is a debatable point, the entire point of touhou is forgotten mythologies exist in other worlds. It'd feel weird if that mention didn't mean that there wasn't some sort of entity out there right now. But it is debatable, I suppose.

Lol yeah

3: If Hell has no defined size, then neither does the Netherworld, so you can't use that either.

Yeah

4: It probably is just Former Hell. But that doesn't actually matter because I'm not seeing another size comparison for Hell.

There is, actually

Yachie	信じないというのなら良いですよ この無限に広い地獄で永遠に 彷徨い続ければいい	If you don't believe me, then fine. Feel free to wander forever in Hell's infinitely vast space.

5: Eternal suffering is a concept. Infinite suffering is a concept. Just because we don't see an end doesn't mean that there isn't one.

Yeah but it's described as infinite too, so I believe that Hell is at least infinite in size (Also scales from the other hell, i suppose)

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Lol, 2 more messages and I'm at 900

 

[ZetaMarishi]

THANK YOU for providing an actual size quote. Granted, she could be exaggerating even still, but at least it's ******* something that isn't referring to the amount of suffering.

Also, I know Touhou's not losing H3A/L2C, but can we at least admit that Miko isn't a generic hermit and not scale generic hermits and generic kishins automatically to H3A/L2C.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

THANK YOU for providing an actual size quote. Granted, she could be exaggerating even still, but at least it's ******* something that isn't referring to the amount of suffering.

No problem, but with additional context we have, it's safe to assume both hell scales to each other and both supports them being infinite

But can we at least admit that Miko isn't a generic hermit and not scale generic hermits and generic kishins automatically to H3A/L2C.

I mean, is there any other Hermits that we know that doesn't scale to Miko?

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Possibly Seiga, but I'm just irritated that the scaling chain has been presented as:
H3A/L2C Generic Hermit = Generic Kishin < Seiga < Miko

to my memory.

Also none of the Avici quotes read as infinite in size to me. None of them. But I'll drop this because of the Yachie quote.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Generic Kishin should be H3-A/L2-C, since they give a problem to Seiga, tho generic Hermits may not

 

[ZetaMarishi]

I honestly am not even sure Seiga scales to Miko, I'll be honest.

Also, is the comparison between the Netherworld to Former Hell or Hell?

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I honestly am not even sure Seiga scales to Miko, I'll be honest.

Also, is the comparison between the Netherworld to Former Hell or Hell?

The New Hell

 

[Malomtek]

Here we have Hieda, one of the most accurate source of statement on the series, stating that the world is infinite.

So now we've established that the physical universe is infinite. I'll give you that.

Eternal, is pretty much the equivalent of infinite

Or it could just mean the corridor is really long lasting, because "eternity" is generally used as a measurement of extent in time, not extent in space in fiction.

Let's say someone's age is 50, divide that by infinity, and it will become 0

But that would just be 50/infinity, not zero.

That is just fluff that's not relevant to anything.

Also, the endless corridor doesn't exist inside Eientei, it strech out to the false moon.
Let's take a look another statement for this corridor that come from

You may say that this is hax, and not AP, sure but it won't take off the L2-C rating from people

Miko, then proceed to absorb the infinite corridor, then stating that she can break through the infinite time space, thus rendering her AP L2-C/H3-A and this scales to pretty much everyone.

Except no one other than few Gensokyo residents happened to detect what is basically an infinite universe within the universe that Kaguya is supposed to have created. So it's more likely to just be wonky spacetime hax, not something that translates to attack power in any case, even when absorbed.

And if that corridor is just supposed to connect the earth and a "false moon", then there is even more evidence that calling it "infinite" is hyperbole. You don't need an infinite space just to connect two celestial objects together. Miko, for her part, may have just been exaggerating a little bit.

Eirin describing it as a "false passage", and that the people she was talking to were fooled by an "illusion" the "false full moon" generated also puts into question if the so-called "infinite corrider" is even real, and not just an illusion created by Kaguya or whatever.

Hell, is stated to be infinite and eternal, not once but a couple of times

But those first two scans didn't refer to Hell in general, but a specific Hell, Avici Hell. Even then, "infinite hell" need not be taken literally as a statement of spatial extent, as it could just as easily be a reference to how the horrid existence in Avici hell takes place over countless ages upon ages in Buddhist cosmology.

I want to harp on the fact that Avici is called "THE infinite hell", implying that hells are generally not "infinite" in any given case.

Also those scans reek of "Imprecise English Translation Syndrome" too.

Hierarchy you said, the problem with that, it only apply to the physical world version of them, not their Primordial Forms, there's no indication (as far as I remembered) that there's a hierarchy of power in a state where concept doesn't even exist, the hierarchy of power here only applies to their physical world.

Okay, I'll give you that.

Why do we assume that the Primordials are L2-C? Well, there's an infinite sized space here, and Space=Time in 2hou, more info on that here, we can assume that there's one person that's able to create infinite space then scaling to the rest of the guys, since they're the same at this state.

Even though that "create infinite space" feat was more than likely done through wonky spacetime hax and not raw power, so it's not an attack power feat that actually scales to anyone, it's just a weird ability that can likely only be replicated by a relative few.

Well actually, that key works when one's avatar got bodied so hard and then returned to their Primordial Forms, if you read the CRT till the end, you'll see that it's the purpose of adding the key in the first place.

You're equating the nameless and non-distinctive supposed "primordial forms" of the Touhou gods with whatever abstract, yet clearly named (if in multiple ways) and distinctive minds they have as their "true forms" in the present, which is nonsensical.

The Netherworld is larger than Hell and Heaven is larger than the Netherworld, and Hell is consistently stated to be infinite in size, so....

No, Avici hell can be tentatively said to be infinite in size if you literally interpret it's "the infinite hell" epithet to mean that it is infinite in size, instead of infinite in function, i.e. the number of times you suffer in it as per regular Buddhist cosmology.

Also, how can spaces of infinite size be meaningfully "larger" than the other - excepting higher levels of being and higher infinities, which the Netherworld and Heaven clearly aren't portrayed to be.

The Dreamworld, eh...,the Dreamworld is very well another reality, if you don't know

Then it should scale to the infinite sized world, also it contain the Land of Backdoors and Netherworld which is infinite in size...

"Another reality" could just as easily mean "a separate plane of existence" in this context, not an entirely different universe.

And then we have Suika that breaks the Heaven, Doremy which control the Dream World, Eirin with her infinite mass Klein Bottle, Okina creating the land of backdoors, Tenshi shakes the heaven, Miko created infinite sized Senkai, etc...

I'm seeing a lot of wonkily described "feats" with no evidence to back them up.

Alright, listen, it's a common thing in fiction where one can bust a Universe but doesn't shake the Universe every time they fight, it's common.

Apparently not to the people doing the Marvel revisions right now, for which the assertion that fictional characters can generally control the AoE of their attacks is just absurd. "Two wrongs don't make a right" and all that.

Even so, 2hus simply don't have any solid feats to back up universal power. It's sad, but it's true.

PS: Yachie sounds like someone who is speaking figuratively, and not literally with that "Hell's infinitely vast space" line of hers. She's also known for being manipulative, and that quote sounds very manipulative to me, so that makes the quote even more unreliable.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

This some long stuff, hold up

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Or it could just mean the corridor is really long lasting, because "eternity" is generally used as a measurement of extent in time, not extent in space in fiction.

Yeah but this is 2Hou, things works differently here

That is just fluff that's not relevant to anything.

The point is to establish Eternal can mean infinite, get it?

And if that corridor is just supposed to connect the earth and a "false moon", then there is even more evidence that calling it "infinite" is hyperbole. You don't need an infinite space just to connect two celestial objects together. Miko, for her part, may have just been exaggerating a little bit.

Idk man, the universe is infinite why wouldn't fit 2 celestial object with infinite space between them? Also, you can say that the fake moon exist somewhere near the Moon therefore one would need to travel through the Dream World

Wonky Space time hax, did you not read a little message between the quotes?

Even though that "create infinite space" feat was more than likely done through wonky spacetime hax and not raw power, so it's not an attack power feat that actually scales to anyone, it's just a weird ability that can likely only be replicated by a relative few.

No, I don't think so, we've seen people able to do it, so why couldn't they?

You're equating the nameless and non-distinctive supposed "primordial forms" of the Touhou gods with whatever abstract, yet clearly named (if in multiple ways) and distinctive minds they have as their "true forms" in the present, which is nonsensical.

The key actually exist to made people notice that it exist and can be used, but that form can't be used in every battle one fight

No, Avici hell can be tentatively said to be infinite in size if you literally interpret it's "the infinite hell" epithet to mean that it is infinite in size, instead of infinite in function, i.e. the number of times you suffer in it as per regular Buddhist cosmology.

What r you trying to say here, mate?

Also, how can spaces of infinite size be meaningfully "larger" than the other - excepting higher levels of being and higher infinities, which the Netherworld and Heaven clearly aren't portrayed to be.

Fiction, also this is 2hou

I'm seeing a lot of wonkily described "feats" with no evidence to back them up.

It's hard to grab the links, do you want it?

Apparently not to the people doing the Marvel revisions right now, for which the assertion that fictional characters can generally control the AoE of their attacks is just absurd. "Two wrongs don't make a right" and all that.

Marvel are kinda based tho

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Imma need to sleep soon, and probably won't be online after that, you need to find a new 2hou chad here.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

"Another reality" could just as easily mean "a separate plane of existence" in this context, not an entirely different universe.

This could made Dream World scales higher, btw

 

[Malomtek]

Yeah but this is 2Hou, things works differently here

Yeah no. "Thinks just work differently with my preferred verse" is not an argument, unless one explains why and how things are different.

The point is to establish Eternal can mean infinite, get it?

Yes. Infinite in time, not spatial extent in this context.

Idk man, the universe is infinite why wouldn't fit 2 celestial object with infinite space between them? Also, you can say that the fake moon exist somewhere near the Moon therefore one would need to travel through the Dream World

Wonky Space time hax, did you not read a little message between the quotes?

Doesn't the Dream World itself only contain a fake moon? Why would the "fake moon", if it existed in the physical world, be a literally infinite distance away from Earth? And why would a passageway between the physical and dream worlds necessarily have to be infinite in size?

I did read that "little message between the quotes". It doesn't mean anything.

No, I don't think so, we've seen people able to do it, so why couldn't they?

"Nuh-uh" isn't an argument, son.

The key actually exist to made people notice that it exist and can be used, but that form can't be used in every battle one fight

Missing the point, which is that the "primordial 8 million gods" that created the world are essentially entirely and fundamentally distinct and separate entities from, say, Hecatia Lapislazuli, Junko, Kanako Yasaka, or Lord Tsukuyomi.

What r you trying to say here, mate?

That saying that Avici hell is actually infinite in spatial extent is a headcanon-y interpretation of an epithet that could just as easily refer to how rebirth in Avici hell is often described as lasting for numberless eons in Buddhist cosmology, and that Avici hell is really the only hell described by relatively reliable characters as "infinite" to begin with.

Fiction, also this is 2hou

"lol fiction" and "lol 2hu" aren't good enough excuses here.

It's hard to grab the links, do you want it?

I do indeed want it.

This could made Dream World scales higher, btw

Or even lower, as "planes" in fiction can also function more like separate dimensions, which can be of any size.

 

[Malomtek]

If we assume that "8 million gods" refers to an innumerable number of deities, as it is often interpreted to be in Shinto, then it doesn't even mean any of them are necessarily universal to begin with. Each one of them could have just made a small piece of reality to add to the whole. If a character cuts out a small piece of space, or patches up a tear in space, for example, does that mean he's somehow universe level?

Noticing how nobody even attempted to refute this.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

The place that's forty thousand yojana underground is the bottom of Hell. Hell is actually about thirty nine thousand yojana high; that means that its ceiling is far closer, just a thousand yojana from the surface. Converting to metric puts that at about seven thousand kilometers underground. In other words, close to the center of the earth.The place that's forty thousand yojana underground is the bottom of Hell. Hell is actually about thirty nine thousand yojana high; that means that its ceiling is far closer, just a thousand yojana from the surface. Converting to metric puts that at about seven thousand kilometers underground. In other words, close to the center of the earth.

Hell Ain't That Big, unfortunately. And if Hell has a size that isn't infinite, then you can't scale Heaven or the Dream World to that, either.

I can't comment on all of thread today since I'm busy with my psychology class, but just to point out:
This is a retconned statement. ZUN referred to Hell as infinite is size in an interview
いくつか新しい設定や世界が出てきました。地獄に行くかと思ったら地獄じゃないところに行ったし。A number of new locations and background details appeared this time. We thought we were going to Hell, and then we actually went somewhere besides Hell...

�

ZUN	大きく見たら地獄の一つですよ、畜生界も。	The Animal Realm's just one of many Hells, broadly speaking.
――	そうなんですね。	Is it, now?
ZUN	とにかく地獄はめちゃくちゃ広いんです。霊をたくさん受け入れられる。それこそ無限に広いんです。畜生界はお隣って言っているけど、まあちょっとだけ分かれてる、程度の感覚です。	The first thing about Hell is that it's stupidly large. It accepts tons of spirits. Just, you know, infinitely large. The Animal Realm's described as being "next door" to it, but in terms of perception it's only a little bit divided from it.

Kanji is "Mugen" which means infinite here.



I'll make a response to most of the other stuff tomorrow or later tonight.
(Good Job Onsokuno by the way.)

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

From what I’ve read, I’ll have to disagree with the downgrades at the moment

 

[Deleted member 11410]

okwy I disagree for now

 

[Malomtek]

This is a retconned statement. ZUN referred to Hell as infinite is size in an interview

And you don't think "the first thing about Hell is that it's stupidly large. It accepts tons of spirits. Just, you know, infinitely large" is in any way merely figurative or hyperbolic/exaggerative language at all?

You'd think if ZUN was literally saying that Hell was infinite in size, he would say something a bit more definitive and less vague about how many spirits it contains that "tons".

Edit: Just tallied up the score of people who agree and disagree with this downgrade as of now.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

And you don't think "the first thing about Hell is that it's stupidly large. It accepts tons of spirits. Just, you know, infinitely large" is in any way merely figurative or hyperbolic/exaggerative language at all?

You'd think if ZUN was literally saying that Hell was infinite in size, he would say something a bit more definitive and less vague about how many spirits it contains that "tons".

Literally there is no reason to assume it's hyperbolic, you have TWO statements of it being infinite, another one from the same interview saying hell contains multiple other hells, which would include avici.

And no there isn't a need to be more definitive because it's a blatant statement, you're taking part of the sentence and trying to twist it in an entirely different context.

 

[Malomtek]

Literally there is no reason to assume it's hyperbolic, you have TWO statements of it being infinite, another one from the same interview saying hell contains multiple other hells, which would include avici.

And no there isn't a need to be more definitive because it's a blatant statement, you're taking part of the sentence and trying to twist it in an entirely different context.

One statement (from Reimu) could just as easily be referring to Avici's "infiniteness" in terms of the innumerable eons beings are imprisoned in there for. The other (from Yachie) is from a clear attempt at manipulation from a character that is known for being manipulative, and thus unreliable as a source.

As for the interview statement, "Dude, you know how stupidly huge hell is, because it contains a lot of souls. It's like, infinite" doesn't sound like a very "blatant" statement to me. "Infinite" could just be a figure of speech in this case for how "stupidly huge" hell is, which, while enormous, might still have a finite size.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Thanks to a friend for this scan by the way.
The basis of your argument for hell being finite is that story from merry in Neo traditionalism of Japan, correct?
It wasn't hell in the first place (Full context can be read here)

 

[Bummel]

Just gonna say in case you deny the otherworld is not seperate reality/universe

Go to saikou touhou explanation is already agreed that every otherworld is have seperate space-time on their own and some have size as large as universe (like doremy dream world)

 

[ZetaMarishi]

In all fairness, I did bow out of the argument, and didn't pursue after the Yachie quote was dropped. Consider all of my arguments null, I do not wish to be pinged about this.

I'm still not a fan of the infinite corridors, but the interview for Hell is pretty definitive.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I disagree with this for now

 

[Malomtek]

Thanks to a friend for this scan by the way.
The basis of your argument for hell being finite is that story from merry in Neo traditionalism of Japan, correct?
It wasn't hell in the first place (Full context can be read here)

No it's not.

My argument for Hell being finite is based on the lack of solid evidence that it is infinite.

Just gonna say in case you deny the otherworld is not seperate reality/universe

Go to saikou touhou explanation is already agreed that every otherworld is have seperate space-time on their own and some have size as large as universe (like doremy dream world)

I didn't deny that otherworlds can be separate "realities"/"universes", I deny that they're all necessarily the same or comparable in size to the physical universe. Doremy's dream world has never actually been proven to be as large as the infinite physical universe, and don't give me the "dreams of all living creatures" stuff. Dreams don't have to correspond to any size in particular, and for all we know they could all be infinitesimally small.

I'm taking off the tallies until the thread starts reaching a more definitive conclusion.

 

[Bummel]

Well doremy dream world should in fact bigger then universe as is containing the main universe,the lunarian moon,gensokyo,okina dimension,probably hell(hecatia and junko have their own dream version) etc

 

[Malomtek]

Well doremy dream world should in fact bigger then universe as is containing the main universe,the lunarian moon,gensokyo,okina dimension,probably hell(hecatia and junko have their own dream version) etc

This is literally just "dreams of all living creatures" fluff which I already refuted, but presented in a more "inflated" manner. According to you, we're now supposed to believe that the dream world contains essentially the entire Touhou cosmology inside of it, which is a very extreme claim that requires extreme evidence.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

As for the interview statement, "Dude, you know how stupidly huge hell is, because it contains a lot of souls. It's like, infinite" doesn't sound like a very "blatant" statement to me. "Infinite" could just be a figure of speech in this case for how "stupidly huge" hell is, which, while enormous, might still have a finite size.

Then Decides to compare WoG by translating into a form of slang.

My argument for Hell being finite is based on the lack of solid evidence that it is infinite.

You still have two statements which need to be disproved by a direct showing in the original material.
And I still was able to disprove one of the main arguments you used for hell.
Also if the statement from Yachie was this one, I see literally no reason to go against hell being infinite, three statements you need to disprove, saying "unreliable character xd" or "Hyperbolic WoG statement despite there being no implication of it" are not refutes, so please don't treat them as one.

Dream and reality stuff

Various statements of reality and dreams being the same

So yes, when a realm is created it is in fact equal to the said original thing present in reality.

we're now supposed to believe that the dream world contains essentially the entire Touhou cosmology inside of it

Not impossible XD

Continuing with the thread.
Another reason we can consider beings like lunarians and the interpretation of High 3-A, Low 2-C consistent is the occult ball made by sagume, was said to have infinite power flowing out like a white hole

People like Eirin scale, kaguya would also scale, Sumireko utilized these which would've broken the hakurei barrier which extends infinitely for the record.

An attack from youmu by borrowing power from the moon can extend infinitely in width

Japanese text for the card:
月の力を借りて斬る。この一振りだけで物凄く広いといわれる西行寺
の庭全てを網羅する斬り技。月の力が力を生み、無限に横に広がる
(Still has infinite)

So I still really fail to see how High 3-A and Low 2-C are not consistent.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

It's late here in California, so I'll being going to sleep now. (Maybe saikou will come and help, who knows?)