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Top 5 Strongest Characters for Every Tier 20

The Hex Statue is a piece of gear he has, it's the thing that gives his body the 1-A aura in the first place. It's the physical hex that he later gives to Meng Hao.

Reaching the Dao is to Transcend and reach Daosource/Heaven-Trampling/Boundless-Dao/4th-Step/Eternal. Where the characters become 1-A.

There was nothing saying LT wanted to resurrect anyone, or that he even knew it'd happen in the first place. He just finished the statue and it happened instantly.

The magic is his, from the statue that he made, and powered by his own soul. I don't quite get how that's outside help.
 
Agnaa said:
Oblivion Of The Endless said:
So just because an ability is sentient it will be considered outside help?
Click to expand...
What makes LT's sentient magic that protects it and destroys anything that would harm it, any different from Vegeta (Dragon Ball Super) protecting Bulma and resurrecting her with the Dragon Balls?
Click to expand...
The fact that Vegeta isnt on Bulma's equipment, nor its an ability/summon/stuff of hers
 
An Avatar getting helped, even if its alot, by its higher form should not be considered outside help, cause its literally that same being just helping its lower form not some truly outside entity or different being.

Its not the same as the Presence killing people for ******* with Cain since Cain and the Presence are their own separate entities while the Avatar is the higher being just a lower level.
 
Reaching the Dao is to Transcend and reach Daosource/Heaven-Trampling/Boundless-Dao/4th-Step/Eternal. Where the characters become 1-A.

Yes but what/who reached the Dao, causing the resurrection?

There was nothing saying LT wanted to resurrect anyone, or that he even knew it'd happen in the first place. He just finished the statue and it happened instantly.

Okay, so the statue can do things that LT doesn't want. Who's to say that it would stop LT from being incapped? It might desire LT being incapped at that point in time.

The magic is his, from the statue that he made, and powered by his own soul. I don't quite get how that's outside help;

The magic is "his", but it's sentient and acts outside of what LT wants.

He made the statue, but it does its own thing outside of what LT wants.

It's powered by his own soul, but his soul has a different mind and can act on its own, doing things outside of what LT wants.

That's what makes it outside help. An outside sentient process unbeholden to LT's wishes is considered to be fighting for him.
 
Oblivion Of The Endless said:
The fact that Vegeta isnt on Bulma's equipment, nor its an ability/summon/stuff of hers
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Vegeta's not on Bulma's profile because it's considered outside help. LT's 1-A stuff that's out of his control shouldn't be in the 10-B key.

You can't defend a profile being wrong by pointing to how the wrong stuff's on the profile.

@Psycho Read the earlier posts I quoted from Bambu:

It was agreed ages ago that characters who have lower tiers basically because they feel like it shouldn't be considered for that tier. Weaker forms, sure. Even while having a restriction placed on you, okay. Just punching lighter to go easy on the enemy? No.
 
PsychoWarper said:
So wouldnt that make GER Outside Help? Or any Automatic Stand?
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I'm not sure, but I think there's a qualitative difference worthy of discussion about this.
 
The Hex itself reached the Dao, when LT finished carving the statue.

Because the Seal the Heaven's Hex's whole thing is "WHAT I DON'T WANT BETTER NOT EXIST IN THE HEAVENS! AND WHAT I WANT WILL EXIST!". It's the full manifestation of Meng Hao's Dao of Freedom and Independence, it just letting LT get rekt is ridiculous.

Can't gear or stuff you made fight for you?
 
Hm. I don't see why is summoning people able to fight for you in vs threads allowed (Bambu said that), but a Passive Aura able to work on levels higher than yours and do stuff for you considered outside help?
 
But it isnt just punching lighter, its literally a weaker form that gets massively helped by its Higher Form.

This isnt Saitama holding back to only knock out 10-Bs this is a normal human with a 1-A soul that helps/protects him.
 
Then again, we have some characters with the same kind of ability. That is, being sentient and acting on its own. It shouldnt be considered outside help if its something related to the character itself
 
The Hex itself reached the Dao, when LT finished carving the statue.

Ahh okay, got it.

Because it's whole thing is "WHAT I DON'T WANT BETTER NOT EXIST IN THE HEAVENS! AND WHAT I WANT WILL EXIST!". It's the full manifestation of Meng Hao's Dao of Freedom, it just letting LT get rekt is ridiculous.

But doesn't the world still change? What he wants is fluid and changes over time, so something like passive mindhax should change what he wants, and hence be effective.

Can't gear or stuff you made fight for you?

There's some sort of limit to this that we haven't solidified yet. A normal human created SCP-3812 but I'm not sure if that dude should get a 10-B profile with outerversal hax because of a 1-A+ being that acts out of his control. I think there's other limits to it, with us generally not assuming that creator deities have everything they created at the start of the story helping it.

I wanna make a thread about this but it's Christmas, it might take a bit for me to get around to it.
 
Agnaa said:
PsychoWarper said:
So wouldnt that make GER Outside Help? Or any Automatic Stand?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure, but I think there's a qualitative difference worthy of discussion about this.
Click to expand...
Alright but, "It's powered by his own soul, but his soul has a different mind and can act on its own, doing things outside of what LT wants.

That's what makes it outside help. An outside sentient process unbeholden to LT's wishes is considered to be fighting for him."

Doesnt that explain what GER kinda is just with LT instead? Its GioGios soul but it has its own "mind"/thought process, it acts on its own without his will or thought even talking iirc.
 
ts literally a weaker form that gets massively helped by its Higher Form.

That really does seem like punching lighter, since both exist simultaneously and are the same from the same point in time.

Then again, we have some characters with the same kind of ability. That is, being sentient and acting on its own. It shouldnt be considered outside help if its something related to the character itself

Yeah I'm not sure where the line should be drawn.

Doesnt that explain what GER kinda is just with LT instead? Its GioGios soul but it has its own "mind"/thought process, it acts on its own without his will or thought even talking iirc.

Yeah I'm not sure. I'm just one person, talking to just 3 other people, I don't have all the answers for site-wide policy changes affecting tens of thousands of pages. I've already told you this.
 
I'm sure getting mindhaxed is not on his Christmas wish list, there's no reason to want that. The Hex is made to seal the Heavens, to destroy whatever tries to restrain or control it/the user. Why would it allow anything harmful to happen to LT? It can just nuke the person attacking.

I don't see how the SCP guy is comparable if the SCP doesn't want to protect or help in any way.
 
Plus arnt 3812 and the one that made it two seperate/different beings? While LT and his Soul are the same being they can just act independently.
 
Are we really doing this?

The 1-A soul is always part of the character. Stands aren't outside help for jojo characters, and this is the least "outside" it gets since it's part of him.

The soul is autonomous, but still wants what LT wants. It's not going to rebel or leave him incapacitated. Even if it's will was 100% seperate, it didn't even allow for beings LT didn't want to get remotely close, it didn't push them after they annoyed him. Something LT wouldn't want is about to happen-->it gets intercepted. And no, passive haxes that change desires aren' t allowed to just work either. People, literally every single person (or animal, or even object) past Nascent Soul passively makes people become subservient (make anyone in 20k kilometer radius cowtow) to them.

I don't particularly care if the thread allows that ability for a tier or not tough.
 
I'm sure getting mindhaxed is not on his Christmas wish list, there's no reason to want that.

Well he won't have an issue with it once it happens, and why would he want to EE someone that he doesn't know about that hasn't done anything?

The Hex is made to seal the Heavens, to destroy whatever tries to restrain or control it/the user. Why would it allow anything harmful to happen to LT? It can just nuke the person attacking.

Sounds like it does more than that considering it resurrected a bunch of random people for no reason, but if that's the case then it seems like it causes outside help concerns.

I don't see how the SCP guy is comparable if the SCP doesn't want to protect or help in any way.

Sure, so for it to not count as outside help it has to be protected by something that wants to protect it, this definition still seems like it could cause issues.

Plus arnt 3812 and the one that made it two seperate/different beings? While LT and his Soul are the same being they can just act independently.

Creator and creation.

What makes something the same being? Does the text just have to say it is?

The 1-A soul is always part of the character. Stands aren't outside help for jojo characters, and this is the least "outside" it gets since it's part of him.

I already commented on the jojo comparison before.

The soul is autonomous, but still wants what LT wants.

What was the deal with the resurrection then? From what I'm told LT didn't want that.

Even if it's will was 100% seperate, it didn't even allow for beings LT didn't want to get remotely close, it didn't push them after they annoyed him. Something LT wouldn't want is about to happen-->it gets intercepted. And no, passive haxes that change desires aren' t allowed to just work either. People, literally every single person (or animal, or even object) past Nascent Soul passively makes people become subservient (make anyone in 20k kilometer radius cowtow) to them.

Ahh okay, this explains a lot then. Still seems weird but less weird.
 
When one reaches the Dao, everyone "below" it ascends, so everyone who was killed by Allheaven was resurrected (since the Hex doesn't like the Heavens, it makes sense for it to want to bring them back), and LT himself was healed of his blindness (since he's "under" the Hex's protection, I guess).
 
When one reaches the Dao, everyone "below" it ascends, so everyone who was killed by Allheaven was resurrected (since the Hex doesn't like the Heavens, it makes sense for it to want to bring them back)

Then this doesn't seem like a good example of the Hex targeting on its own, if this resurrection is just an automatic process whenever one reaches the Dao rather than something the Hex decided to do.
 
Not necessarily automatic, it seems. Didn't happen when Meng Hao transcended, or else his destroyed Realm could have been brought back. He probably wouldn't want that at the time, it most likely has to be willed and chosen the people "below" it.
 
So then LT did want it, making it like the teleportation example I gave earlier?
 
Not LT, the Hex. The Hex reached the Dao, so those "below" the Hex got brought back or healed. There's no mention of LT willing anything after completing the statue, only the Hex's aura spreading and it being mentioned how it was the new strongest Dao that'd slap the Heavenly Dao away.
 
@Agnaa: Ya know, it might be more productive if I just PM'd through Discord or a message wall about everything that happened with LT, with all the context, so everything can be addressed more easily. >_>
 
Not LT, the Hex. The Hex reached the Dao, so those "below" the Hex got brought back or healed. There's no mention of LT willing anything after completing the statue

So the Hex has its own will, that it enforced upon reaching the Dao?
 
It seems to have a will of its own, yes.


It was terrified, because it could sense that a new aura had appeared within the starry sky. It was a new power, a Dao... that superseded the Heavenly Dao!

That Dao could be called... the Seal the Heavens Dao!

The Seal the Heavens Dao was boundlessly domineering. It refused to allow anyone to offend it. It refused to allow any other will to change it.

It… could make the Heavens open their eyes, and could make the Heavens close their eyes. If I want the Heavens' eyes closed, they won't dare to refuse!

What I want, the Heavens shall NOT lack! What I don't want, had BETTER not exist in the Heavens!
 
LT's thing is basically stands

LT's 1-A soul is a different form, which belongs in its own key, not helping its weaker form. While stands are a persons' own powers manifested.

He made the magic statue so it's not outside help

Things that are made aren't always considered "not outside help", only if they're considered standard/optional/summonable equipment are they allowed. Which makes me wonder, is LT having the seal the heavens statue as standard equipment accurate? Does he carry it around with him all the time?
 
Guys, how transformations work here ?

For example, a 8-C with a 8-A transformation can use this to go further in the rank, or he only gets a chance against other 8-As ?
 
I think we start them at 8-C but let them transform into 8-A mid-battle.
 
Agnaa said:
LT's 1-A soul is a different form, which belongs in its own key, not helping its weaker form. While stands are a persons' own powers manifested.

He made the magic statue so it's not outside help

Things that are made aren't always considered "not outside help", only if they're considered standard/optional/summonable equipment are they allowed. Which makes me wonder, is LT having the seal the heavens statue as standard equipment accurate? Does he carry it around with him all the time?
Click to expand...
A different form..? How? They are literally not. His 1-A soul is literally his soul, and the statue is controlled by it.

Pretty sure, yeah. Equipment is never left behind by any character unless they are forced to do so.
 
@Agnaa: LT carries the statue around before completing it, completing it was his purpose in life in the first place.

The completed one, he only really had it for a minute or two before giving it to Meng. He completed it, it healed everyone, blew up the barrier around the continent, slapped Allheaven away, then LT gave it to Meng and fused back with him. His first key is for that small moment between completing and giving it to Meng in the first place (it didn't have power before that), so it should be standard, I guess.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
A different form..? How? They are literally not. His 1-A soul is literally his soul, and the statue is controlled by it.

Pretty sure, yeah. Equipment is never left behind by any character unless they are forced to do so.
Click to expand...
People's true forms are usually considered different forms and given their own keys.

If that's true then it's probably fine. But it seems really weird for a 10-B to be carrying a statue around everywhere they go rather than just leaving it where they carved it.
 
Okay, then I believe Dante (Devil May Cry) deserves a chance for 7-B

He has some good haxes like Time Stop, Time Slow, Power Null, Atomic Deconstruction, Passive Fear Hax, BFR, Sealing. Ap wise he stomps 10 MT characters and can easily defeat Nightmare, who scales far abive that, even when it had a help from Trish, another 10 MT character

Aaaaand he has a 3-A/Low 2-C with FTL/Massively FTL speed transformation with the Devil Sword Sparda Devil Trigger

When he gets this Sword in game, he starts with it and DT is very in character for him
 
ZackMoon1234 said:
I thought you couldn't do transformations in a battle...
Click to expand...
Unless they're restricted, characters that can transform can transform.
 
Oh, that is a really weird backstory and situation for a profile.

I'll have to think about it for a bit but it's leaning towards the "it's okay" category.
 
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