Doom Eternal downgrades

[LordNidhoggr]

So...Doomguy is rated 2-A at his peak, which is ridiculous. This is based on scaling to Davoth very incorrectly. For some reason, it's assumed that Davoth is at full strength when the Slayer kills him. He is not. Davoth's peak power was stolen by the Father, eventually coming to rest in the Father's soul sphere after he retreated from creation. Why do you think the Doom Slayer destroys the Father's soul sphere? It's not because the Father is his enemy, it's so Davoth can't get his full power back. So, there shouldn't be a 2-A level Doom Slayer under any circumstances; depending on how Davoth (final battle) is scaled he might have a new key for that, but I don't know of anything particularly relevant in that final battle. Davoth is 2-A at his peak, but not by the time of the final battle. I don't know exactly how to scale Davoth at the time of his battle with the Doom Slayer, so I'd suggest either an unknown key or scaling him to the Slayer at 7-B for him at that time.

Quotes from the game to back this up:

1. "For too long have I been imprisoned by my own creations. You will not stop my vengeance, nor the one who betrayed me. Tell him." -Davoth
2. "He is the first being.....and my creator. When he fell, I ascended." - The Father
3. They lied to you, Slayer. Immora and its people would have been perfect if not for the treachery of my servants. They sealed me away, stole my power and name, and now the time has come for a reckoning. As all things have been made by my hand, so shall they be unmade. Starting with you." -Davoth

Now that third quote might imply to some that he has the power to do that. I would argue that if he did possess the power to unmake everything he had made, he'd have just wiped the Doom Slayer from existence as soon as look at him. He was clearly talking about a plan he would go through once he re-attained his full power at some point. Keep in mind that in this verse powerful beings like angels and demons can be fought and killed with conventional weapons. True, only some have the power to put down the most dangerous of them, but Davoth would definitely be capable of soloing Heaven or Earth just like the Doom Slayer is. He's still quite powerful without his demiurgic power and armed with very potent technology. He's just very clearly not 2-A powerful when he's killed.

 

[Axxtentacle]

So...Doomguy is rated 2-A at his peak, which is ridiculous. This is based on scaling to Davoth very incorrectly. For some reason, it's assumed that Davoth is at full strength when the Slayer kills him. He is not. Davoth's peak power was stolen by the Father, eventually coming to rest in the Father's soul sphere after he retreated from creation. Why do you think the Doom Slayer destroys the Father's soul sphere? It's not because the Father is his enemy, it's so Davoth can't get his full power back. So, there shouldn't be a 2-A level Doom Slayer under any circumstances; depending on how Davoth (final battle) is scaled he might have a new key for that, but I don't know of anything particularly relevant in that final battle. Davoth is 2-A at his peak, but not by the time of the final battle. I don't know exactly how to scale Davoth at the time of his battle with the Doom Slayer, so I'd suggest either an unknown key or scaling him to the Slayer at 7-B for him at that time.

Quotes from the game to back this up:

1. "For too long have I been imprisoned by my own creations. You will not stop my vengeance, nor the one who betrayed me. Tell him." -Davoth
2. "He is the first being.....and my creator. When he fell, I ascended." - The Father
3. They lied to you, Slayer. Immora and its people would have been perfect if not for the treachery of my servants. They sealed me away, stole my power and name, and now the time has come for a reckoning. As all things have been made by my hand, so shall they be unmade. Starting with you." -Davoth

Now that third quote might imply to some that he has the power to do that. I would argue that if he did possess the power to unmake everything he had made, he'd have just wiped the Doom Slayer from existence as soon as look at him. He was clearly talking about a plan he would go through once he re-attained his full power at some point. Keep in mind that in this verse powerful beings like angels and demons can be fought and killed with conventional weapons. True, only some have the power to put down the most dangerous of them, but Davoth would definitely be capable of soloing Heaven or Earth just like the Doom Slayer is. He's still quite powerful without his demiurgic power and armed with very potent technology. He's just very clearly not 2-A powerful when he's killed.

Jesus Christ. I am so not in the mood for this. I'll do it anyway.



"1. "For too long have I been imprisoned by my own creations. You will not stop my vengeance, nor the one who betrayed me. Tell him." -Davoth
2. "He is the first being.....and my creator. When he fell, I ascended." - The Father
3. They lied to you, Slayer. Immora and its people would have been perfect if not for the treachery of my servants. They sealed me away, stole my power and name, and now the time has come for a reckoning. As all things have been made by my hand, so shall they be unmade. Starting with you." -Davoth"

1. Because the Father sealed him away after their fight, which he won. This doesn't support you, nor does it mean jack shit.
2. Yes. He took his place as the ruler of the Multiverse. Next.
3. The Father didn't ******* absorb Davoth's power. If he did, why would Davoth become "whole" when you resurrect him using his life sphere, WHICH IS NEVER NOTED TO BE LACKING ANY PART OF DAVOTH'S ESSENCE? Their essence, their literal entire being, their power, etc, is all within the life sphere. Davoth had his power stolen by having his ******* life sphere ripped out, meaning he lost his power, and The Father overthrew him.

Your 3rd "Section" is entirely speculation and baseless. You do not know Davoth's plans, and your interpretation isn't based on anything other than your belief that he's not at full power, which has already been talked about in the previous threads where it was agreed to be false with these exact same arguments. He says he'll destroy everything. Done. There's really nothing else needed.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with Axx.

 

[Roachman40]

following

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

To back up Axx's argument. How exactly a Primeval works is that their power depends on whether or not they have a physical form. If they have a physical body, they're at full power.

The Father sensed this and knew they both needed to leave the physical realms before their warring lieutenants tore creation apart. It was then that the Father returned to Jekkad, now called Hell by many. Atop the Pyramid of the Lost where Hell once worshipped the Father, as the skies split and Hell trembled, the Father ripped the Dark Lord's life sphere from his chest. He placed it in the Tomb of Souls, unwilling to obliterate the Dark Lord's essence entirely as he had favored Davoth once. Samur then took the Father's life sphere to the Luminarium, and for a time, there was a stillness in creation. But now the Dark Lord whispers lies and deceptions about the Father to his praying minions in Hell, while he rages, trapped in the Tomb of Souls. For even without a physical form, gods may yet influence the realms.

~ Book of the Seraphs -Part VIII
His power was greatly diminished because he lost his physical form.

This is further hammered in that Primevals are at their godly power when they have their physical body, such as in the Tainted Prophecy.

It was believed by cultist members of the UAC that the creation of the Slayer was guided in secret by the Dark Lord himself. He did it to destroy the Maykrs and their world as punishment, his hope to exact revenge on the servant race who had betrayed him. Even without a physical form the Dark Lord can still have a powerful influence, especially against ones susceptible to corruption. He touched the mind of the Khan Maykr, leader of the Maykr race, convincing her that there was a "chosen one" who would threaten her rule. The Khan set out to find him - paranoid, afraid of this potential hidden threat the Dark Lord convinced her was close. She would do anything to find and destroy the hidden Beast.

This is not only represented in the codex, but it is even said to be the case by other Primevals like the Father.

To further add onto Axx's argument, there is actually physical proof that the Father absorbing Davoth's power just isn't the case. In the Tomb of Souls, we clearly see their life spheres, the color of their essences are very different, one being a reddish purple while the other is bright yellow. If the Father were to have absorb Davoth's power (which isn't actually said anywhere), a part of his essence, there should be some purple essence in the sphere, which there clearly isn't, even when Doomguy destroyed it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Disagree FRA

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Disagree fra

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah I am inclined to disagree for the reasons that Axx and Gewsbumpz have provided.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm inclined to agree with Axx and Gews as well.

 

[Roachman40]

I agree with axx and gews on this

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Axx and Gews are correct.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Jesus Christ. I am so not in the mood for this. I'll do it anyway.



"1. "For too long have I been imprisoned by my own creations. You will not stop my vengeance, nor the one who betrayed me. Tell him." -Davoth
2. "He is the first being.....and my creator. When he fell, I ascended." - The Father
3. They lied to you, Slayer. Immora and its people would have been perfect if not for the treachery of my servants. They sealed me away, stole my power and name, and now the time has come for a reckoning. As all things have been made by my hand, so shall they be unmade. Starting with you." -Davoth"

1. Because the Father sealed him away after their fight, which he won. This doesn't support you, nor does it mean jack shit.
2. Yes. He took his place as the ruler of the Multiverse. Next.
3. The Father didn't ******* absorb Davoth's power. If he did, why would Davoth become "whole" when you resurrect him using his life sphere, WHICH IS NEVER NOTED TO BE LACKING ANY PART OF DAVOTH'S ESSENCE? Their essence, their literal entire being, their power, etc, is all within the life sphere. Davoth had his power stolen by having his ******* life sphere ripped out, meaning he lost his power, and The Father overthrew him.

Your 3rd "Section" is entirely speculation and baseless. You do not know Davoth's plans, and your interpretation isn't based on anything other than your belief that he's not at full power, which has already been talked about in the previous threads where it was agreed to be false with these exact same arguments. He says he'll destroy everything. Done. There's really nothing else needed.

The quote literally says his power was stolen. Also, you don't need to be a jerk about it. Just explain your points and let people weigh in. For the record I did search the old threads, I just must not have found the parts you're referring to.

To back up Axx's argument. How exactly a Primeval works is that their power depends on whether or not they have a physical form. If they have a physical body, they're at full power.

The Father sensed this and knew they both needed to leave the physical realms before their warring lieutenants tore creation apart. It was then that the Father returned to Jekkad, now called Hell by many. Atop the Pyramid of the Lost where Hell once worshipped the Father, as the skies split and Hell trembled, the Father ripped the Dark Lord's life sphere from his chest. He placed it in the Tomb of Souls, unwilling to obliterate the Dark Lord's essence entirely as he had favored Davoth once. Samur then took the Father's life sphere to the Luminarium, and for a time, there was a stillness in creation. But now the Dark Lord whispers lies and deceptions about the Father to his praying minions in Hell, while he rages, trapped in the Tomb of Souls. For even without a physical form, gods may yet influence the realms.

~ Book of the Seraphs -Part VIII
His power was greatly diminished because he lost his physical form.

This is further hammered in that Primevals are at their godly power when they have their physical body, such as in the Tainted Prophecy.

It was believed by cultist members of the UAC that the creation of the Slayer was guided in secret by the Dark Lord himself. He did it to destroy the Maykrs and their world as punishment, his hope to exact revenge on the servant race who had betrayed him. Even without a physical form the Dark Lord can still have a powerful influence, especially against ones susceptible to corruption. He touched the mind of the Khan Maykr, leader of the Maykr race, convincing her that there was a "chosen one" who would threaten her rule. The Khan set out to find him - paranoid, afraid of this potential hidden threat the Dark Lord convinced her was close. She would do anything to find and destroy the hidden Beast.

This is not only represented in the codex, but it is even said to be the case by other Primevals like the Father.

To further add onto Axx's argument, there is actually physical proof that the Father absorbing Davoth's power just isn't the case. In the Tomb of Souls, we clearly see their life spheres, the color of their essences are very different, one being a reddish purple while the other is bright yellow. If the Father were to have absorb Davoth's power (which isn't actually said anywhere), a part of his essence, there should be some purple essence in the sphere, which there clearly isn't, even when Doomguy destroyed it.

First, thanks for being polite about it. Second, I'm seeing a lot of assumptions here. The biggest one is the essence spheres; I could just as easily say Davoth's is red because the Father took his true, golden essence. I'm not arguing against the idea that Davoth or the Father is more powerful with a physical form than without, I'm simply saying he is not as powerful as he was when he created Jakkad when the Doom Slayer kills him. He directly states that his power and position were stolen from him. That seems a pretty clear indication to me that the position of ruler/god is separate from the power Davoth had and so the two aren't a causal relationship.

Look at the Icon of Sin. The codex clearly states that it's power has an effect on reality and that if left long enough could destabilize the entire universe, but it clearly isn't that powerful when the Slayer kills it. It's affecting reality on some level, but it's not a universal threat at the point where it's killed. If it was, how would the Slayer's conventional weapons hurt it without the fundamental laws of reality functioning? And the fact that it isn't acting like a black hole at all. Davoth at his peak was clearly extremely powerful, but he hasn't been at his peak since his betrayal at the hands of the Father. I think it's a little absurd to think that the Slayer is somehow magnitudes stronger than he is in Doom 2016 or the base game of Eternal when using essentially the same tools and power. If he was really 2-A, why even fight demons or zombies at all with guns? He should just be able to will them out of existence, or at least off of earth. Either the Slayer is overrated or everything he fights is massively underrated by virtue of not scaling to him at all. That's the disconnect for me. If that's just an interpretations thing, fine.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

I'll let Axx respond to his respective responses.

The biggest one is the essence spheres; I could just as easily say Davoth's is red because the Father took his true, golden essence.

Baseless. You can say this or that all you want, but please provide evidence for them.

The comparison between Davoth and the Icon of Sin is a bad comparison. You are comparing an entity that gets stronger over time to someone who lost their power at one point, completely different.

how would the Slayer's conventional weapons hurt it without the fundamental laws of reality functioning?

He empowers his weapons. Yes, this is a Twitch statement, but it is actually backed up in the lore. He maimed the Icon of Sin with his weapons, despite weaker titans being so resilient that they are indestructible to conventional weaponry.

I think it's a little absurd to think that the Slayer is somehow magnitudes stronger than he is in Doom 2016 or the base game of Eternal when using essentially the same tools and power.

Doesn't matter if you find it absurd, its a new DLC with new scaling and tools. The Slayer grows in power the more he kills, becoming more and more capable after every battle he goes through. So there is an explanation for how he gains this big power boost.

If he was really 2-A, why even fight demons or zombies at all with guns? He should just be able to will them out of existence, or at least off of earth.

Covered by what I said about him empowering his weapons. Also he is pretty much an unstoppable force to them anyway, so I don't see how this point is significant.

 

[Axxtentacle]

The quote literally says his power was stolen. Also, you don't need to be a jerk about it. Just explain your points and let people weigh in. For the record I did search the old threads, I just must not have found the parts you're referring to.

Yeah? Ok? And it has to mean that specifically, why? Why did The Father HAVE to have absorbed the power? If you take a robot's power core, you aren't exactly using that for yourself, are you? But you could 100% word it as the power was stolen. If they have their power via their physical forms, and Davoth had his life sphere (basically, power core) ripped out, his physical form killed, and had his place as ruler of the multiverse taken, why does that mean The Father HAD to absorb his power? Where is it ever directly said that The Father absorbed Davoth's power?

Let's not forget that "stolen" can be used the same way as "taken" which does absolutely not mean that.

It's not. It's just a common misinterpretation. If Davoth would have gotten his full power back with his physical form, what power did The Father steal?

Still, your last paragraph in the OP is entirely baseless assuming he'll somehow get his full power back with literally no source to get it from after he beats The Slayer, despite him never stating anything even remotely like that, and saying that he would destroy everything after he destroyed the Slayer.

Also that whole thing with the life sphere colors is dumb. Davoth's theme has always been red, even in the codex's artwork of him when he got his Life Sphere ripped out. There's a picture of him with red eyes, and he's always black. Dark. Like Hell. Nowhere is Davoth depicted as Holy.

 

[DTG499]

Brother I will argue against this until I’m blue in the ******* face. I also said this would happen when we made the first CRT

 

[Transcending]

Disagree FRA

 

[Transcending]

Also even if Davoth was weakened in his fight with Doomguy, we have Samur Maykr at 2-A for scaling to the Father who Doomguy beat. So Doomguy would still retain his 2-A rating.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, Doomguy would still be 2-A regardless in that regard.

 

[Shmooply]

I agree with Axx and Gews' points.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Ok, I get it. Doomguy is 2-A and I was wrong. Thanks for humoring my mistaken idea with explanations.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So I may close the thread?

 

[KLOL506]

So I may close the thread?

Sure.