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So I was away from this community while the ATLA verse got downgraded to Supersonic+ again. However, the thread ressponsible for this was still inconclusive on the verse's speed and much of the information used to rebute them being lightning-timers ignores a lot of what we had discussed in the thread upgrading them. So I think it's important to open up this conversation again for the sake of getting a more conclusive result. I also think there should be a note on their profile or proper page to explain why the ATLA characters are their current speed rating, similar to other often-debated ratings, in order to avoid repeating things like this.
Personally, even after reading the new thread, I would still put most of the major characters of the series as lightning-timers (though a calc would obviously be needed to figure out the specific speed). Let me break this down in a way that considers arguments I've heard on the new and old thread -
Thesis: Lightning-bending uses real electricity so those dodging it should scale to that speed as their reaction speed.
Evidence:
1. All other Elements in ATLA are real
Firstly, keep in mind that element-bending in the ATLA-verse consistently uses the real element. Real fire, real water, real earth, real air, real ice, real sand etc.
Yes, some forms of bending are described as the bender using their usual element to pseudo-bend something else (using the water in a plant's body for plant-bending, using tiny bits of unpirified earth in metal to metal-bend etc.) but they all still involve the real thing (real plants, real metal etc.) just manipulated through secondary means.
So if anyting, we should assume that lightning-bending uses the real element like all the other bending styles until proven otherwise, rather than the opposite.
2. Iroh's explanation for it is similar to that of real electricity
The process of lightning-bending is described by Iroh as this: "The energy is both yin and yang; positive energy and negative energy. Only a select few firebenders can separate these energies. This creates an imbalance. The energy wants to restore balance and in a moment the positive and negative energy come crashing back together. You provide release and guidance, creating lightning.".
This is a very similar explanation to the scientific explanation for electricity . Just apply the concept of positive/negative energies coming together to the attraction between positive protons and negative electrons and how the bender provides release and guidance to the way current electricity works. It's not a perfect description but much of that can be attributed to how people in ATLA are more spiritually aware than scientifically aware .
3. Lightning Redirection works on natural lightning
Iroh can use lightning redirection to redirect real lightning. While calcs have shown he could've done this at a much slower speed than the lightning, the very fact he can redirect real lightning using the same technique he uses to redirect lightning-bending shows us they have the same properties. Iroh explains lightning redirection works because it's specially taylored to the lightning's properties(implied to be Azula's lightning in his explanation) but he uses it to redirect both natural and bender lightning, meaning they must work the same way.
4. Lightning Redirection can stop your heart
It's both told and show in the show that if a bender's lightning is conducted through the heart while it's being redirected, it could damage the heart. Because of this characters are told specifically to avoid the heart while redirecting lightning . Bender lightning conducting through people's bodies and stopping their hearts are things real electricity is also well-known to do.
5. Lightning benders can conduct electricity into machinery and redirect the electricty from it
It's shown in Korra that lightning benders can power machinery by sending lightning into it . They can also conduct and redirect electricity from machines, such as when Mako used it against a Mecha Tank (Couldn't find footage of that fight on youtube, but it's mentioned on the ATLA wiki). Both of these are further evidence that bender lighting and real electricity have the same properties as lightning benders manipulate them interchangeably.
All examples of lightning-bending being reacted to:
These were the ones I found. I tried avoiding examples that could be interpreted as aim-dodging. There's also some examples in the comics which are considered 100% canon, but I've yet to read the last few volumes before updating the list.
- Zuko redirecting Ozai's lightning (Season 2 Episode 11). He moved his arms after it had been fired.
-Zuko redirecting Azula's lightning (Season 3 Episode 20). He realised it was aimed at Katara instead of him, ran and moved his arms to catch it only after the it had been fired.
- Katara blocking Azula's lightning with water (Season 3 Episode 20). The water moved after the lightning had been fired.
- Aang redirecting Ozai's lightning (Season 3 Episode 20). He landed on a pillar and moved his arms after it had been fired.
- Amon dodging Zolt's lightning (Season 1 Episode 3 of Korra). He only dodges out of the way after it was fired.
- Amon dodging Mako's lightning (Season 1 Episode 12 of Korra). He only noticed Mako was attacking him and dodged after it had been fired.
Rebutal #1: Lightning-bending takes too long too charge, so dodging it is more like aim-dodging and it shouldn't count as reaction speed
This rebutal doesn't take into consideration that this is very much a case-by-case thing. There are plenty of times in the ATLA/Korra series when bending (including lightning-bending) takes a while to be produced , while other times it's almost instantaneous . What matters is that the calc we use for reaction against lightning doesn't imply aim-dodging, which the first example wouldn't anyway since Zuko runs and moves his arm once the lightning has already started to travel.
Rebutal # 2: The characters were supposed to struggle against the Yuyan archers, so how can they dodge lightning when they can't dodge arrows?
I see this way too often and there's a number of things wrong with it. Firstly, Aang was sucessful in dodging all their arrows, only getting caught when he was caught off-guard or couldn't see them. Secondly, there are plenty of verses out there with archers (even normal human ones) who shoot arrows far faster than their real-life counterparts so the speed of the arrows could be questioned just as much as the speed of bending. Thirdly, the Yuyan archers are said to be known for their stealth and precision and it's implied this is why they were hired to capture Aang (nothing to do with speed). The official ATLA website claimed "The Yuyan Archers were used for very stealthy missions where precision and accuracy were vital for success", and Zhao says "Their precision is legendary. The Yuyan can pin a fly to a tree from a hundred yards away without killing it", when deciding he should hire them to catch Aang.
But most importantly, you have the fact that you're using a singular event from a single episode of the first season (when the characters were weaker) to prove that a phenomenon that happens multiple times throughout the series in sepperate seasons and even sepperate shows with different characters is an outlier. If anything the arrows (provided they travel at the same speed as normal arrows and that they managed to hit Aang, which they never did anyway) are the outliers here.
Rebutal #3: How can the characters dodge lightning when they struggle to dodge *insert throwing weapon here*?
The speed of said weapon would drastically depend on the power and speed of the thrower. A kunai thrown by a Naruto character is obviously far faster than one thrown by a real-world human and the same applies to other verses, like ATLA, where "normal" humans showcase superhuman feats commonly (such as Ty Lee jumping ridiculously high).
Rebutal #4: How can the characters dodge lightning when Korra struggles to dodge an explosion?
She never really struggled. She was likely caught off-guard by seeing an explosive barrel in the room she just entered, instead of Aiwei, who she was chasing down at the time. We see her looking suprised at the explosion before blocking it , hence accounting for her late reaction to it.
Refutal #5: How can the characters dodge lightning when they struggle against slower elements?
There's no substantial evidence that lightning-bending is far faster than any all other kinds of bending. In fact, when describing it, Iroh mentions how it has great power and precision compared to normal fire-bending but never speed.
It's certaintly animated to look faster and I don't doubt it's one of the faster bending styles out there but it's never shown to be a significant difference. Ignoring it would be no different than ignoring a speed feat because that verse has shown seemingly slower attacks too.
Personally, even after reading the new thread, I would still put most of the major characters of the series as lightning-timers (though a calc would obviously be needed to figure out the specific speed). Let me break this down in a way that considers arguments I've heard on the new and old thread -
Thesis: Lightning-bending uses real electricity so those dodging it should scale to that speed as their reaction speed.
Evidence:
1. All other Elements in ATLA are real
Firstly, keep in mind that element-bending in the ATLA-verse consistently uses the real element. Real fire, real water, real earth, real air, real ice, real sand etc.
Yes, some forms of bending are described as the bender using their usual element to pseudo-bend something else (using the water in a plant's body for plant-bending, using tiny bits of unpirified earth in metal to metal-bend etc.) but they all still involve the real thing (real plants, real metal etc.) just manipulated through secondary means.
So if anyting, we should assume that lightning-bending uses the real element like all the other bending styles until proven otherwise, rather than the opposite.
2. Iroh's explanation for it is similar to that of real electricity
The process of lightning-bending is described by Iroh as this: "The energy is both yin and yang; positive energy and negative energy. Only a select few firebenders can separate these energies. This creates an imbalance. The energy wants to restore balance and in a moment the positive and negative energy come crashing back together. You provide release and guidance, creating lightning.".
This is a very similar explanation to the scientific explanation for electricity . Just apply the concept of positive/negative energies coming together to the attraction between positive protons and negative electrons and how the bender provides release and guidance to the way current electricity works. It's not a perfect description but much of that can be attributed to how people in ATLA are more spiritually aware than scientifically aware .
3. Lightning Redirection works on natural lightning
Iroh can use lightning redirection to redirect real lightning. While calcs have shown he could've done this at a much slower speed than the lightning, the very fact he can redirect real lightning using the same technique he uses to redirect lightning-bending shows us they have the same properties. Iroh explains lightning redirection works because it's specially taylored to the lightning's properties(implied to be Azula's lightning in his explanation) but he uses it to redirect both natural and bender lightning, meaning they must work the same way.
4. Lightning Redirection can stop your heart
It's both told and show in the show that if a bender's lightning is conducted through the heart while it's being redirected, it could damage the heart. Because of this characters are told specifically to avoid the heart while redirecting lightning . Bender lightning conducting through people's bodies and stopping their hearts are things real electricity is also well-known to do.
5. Lightning benders can conduct electricity into machinery and redirect the electricty from it
It's shown in Korra that lightning benders can power machinery by sending lightning into it . They can also conduct and redirect electricity from machines, such as when Mako used it against a Mecha Tank (Couldn't find footage of that fight on youtube, but it's mentioned on the ATLA wiki). Both of these are further evidence that bender lighting and real electricity have the same properties as lightning benders manipulate them interchangeably.
All examples of lightning-bending being reacted to:
These were the ones I found. I tried avoiding examples that could be interpreted as aim-dodging. There's also some examples in the comics which are considered 100% canon, but I've yet to read the last few volumes before updating the list.
- Zuko redirecting Ozai's lightning (Season 2 Episode 11). He moved his arms after it had been fired.
-Zuko redirecting Azula's lightning (Season 3 Episode 20). He realised it was aimed at Katara instead of him, ran and moved his arms to catch it only after the it had been fired.
- Katara blocking Azula's lightning with water (Season 3 Episode 20). The water moved after the lightning had been fired.
- Aang redirecting Ozai's lightning (Season 3 Episode 20). He landed on a pillar and moved his arms after it had been fired.
- Amon dodging Zolt's lightning (Season 1 Episode 3 of Korra). He only dodges out of the way after it was fired.
- Amon dodging Mako's lightning (Season 1 Episode 12 of Korra). He only noticed Mako was attacking him and dodged after it had been fired.
Rebutal #1: Lightning-bending takes too long too charge, so dodging it is more like aim-dodging and it shouldn't count as reaction speed
This rebutal doesn't take into consideration that this is very much a case-by-case thing. There are plenty of times in the ATLA/Korra series when bending (including lightning-bending) takes a while to be produced , while other times it's almost instantaneous . What matters is that the calc we use for reaction against lightning doesn't imply aim-dodging, which the first example wouldn't anyway since Zuko runs and moves his arm once the lightning has already started to travel.
Rebutal # 2: The characters were supposed to struggle against the Yuyan archers, so how can they dodge lightning when they can't dodge arrows?
I see this way too often and there's a number of things wrong with it. Firstly, Aang was sucessful in dodging all their arrows, only getting caught when he was caught off-guard or couldn't see them. Secondly, there are plenty of verses out there with archers (even normal human ones) who shoot arrows far faster than their real-life counterparts so the speed of the arrows could be questioned just as much as the speed of bending. Thirdly, the Yuyan archers are said to be known for their stealth and precision and it's implied this is why they were hired to capture Aang (nothing to do with speed). The official ATLA website claimed "The Yuyan Archers were used for very stealthy missions where precision and accuracy were vital for success", and Zhao says "Their precision is legendary. The Yuyan can pin a fly to a tree from a hundred yards away without killing it", when deciding he should hire them to catch Aang.
But most importantly, you have the fact that you're using a singular event from a single episode of the first season (when the characters were weaker) to prove that a phenomenon that happens multiple times throughout the series in sepperate seasons and even sepperate shows with different characters is an outlier. If anything the arrows (provided they travel at the same speed as normal arrows and that they managed to hit Aang, which they never did anyway) are the outliers here.
Rebutal #3: How can the characters dodge lightning when they struggle to dodge *insert throwing weapon here*?
The speed of said weapon would drastically depend on the power and speed of the thrower. A kunai thrown by a Naruto character is obviously far faster than one thrown by a real-world human and the same applies to other verses, like ATLA, where "normal" humans showcase superhuman feats commonly (such as Ty Lee jumping ridiculously high).
Rebutal #4: How can the characters dodge lightning when Korra struggles to dodge an explosion?
She never really struggled. She was likely caught off-guard by seeing an explosive barrel in the room she just entered, instead of Aiwei, who she was chasing down at the time. We see her looking suprised at the explosion before blocking it , hence accounting for her late reaction to it.
Refutal #5: How can the characters dodge lightning when they struggle against slower elements?
There's no substantial evidence that lightning-bending is far faster than any all other kinds of bending. In fact, when describing it, Iroh mentions how it has great power and precision compared to normal fire-bending but never speed.
It's certaintly animated to look faster and I don't doubt it's one of the faster bending styles out there but it's never shown to be a significant difference. Ignoring it would be no different than ignoring a speed feat because that verse has shown seemingly slower attacks too.
