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ATLA Speed Downgrade: It Is Time

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Kingofwolves999

Kingofwolves999

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vsbattles.fandom.com

Avatar: Zuko Blocks Lightning

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

This calc has been rejected for a LONG time, yet is still on every single profile as justification for Massively Hypersonic reactions and combat speed for the verse. This is a clear oversight from the wiki, and I propose this calc be purged from every profile and an alternative one be created for them to scale to.

Also, some of the scaling for the profiles is circular and makes no sense., or is even just flat out wrong. Aang has his season 1 reactions because he scales to Korra, which is supported no where. But worse than that, Korra's reasoning has no scans or feats for it, and just says she can react to people that react to lightning, which is not what Aang's profile says about her.

Lightning bending must be proven to be the actual speed of lightning, and then a REAL scaling chain should be established for early Avatar characters other than vaguely scaling to Korra for no reason.

Lets get this started.
 
There are other issues with the verse as well, particularly with calcs and how we scale bending to be the exact same (which isn't correct, as there's no reason for Aang's air bending to be equal to his earthbending when his earthbending is only 8-B due to the mass of the rock he was using at the time), but that is for another thread.

First things first: Lightning speed has got to go
 
Yea, the verse overall needs a huge rework, but to start things off, I agree with the downgrade.
 
Yeah the ATLA has had this speed issue for a long time.
Especially because a lot of the calculations I’ve seen don’t put this verse anywhere near MHS, even the Avatar state has supersonic maybe hypersonic calcs at best
 
Plus like, wasn't it made a big deal whenever natural lightning both blitzed and one shot Aang whilst in The Avatar state?
 
LordGinSama said:
Plus like, wasn't it made a big deal whenever natural lightning both blitzed and one shot Aang whilst in The Avatar state?
Click to expand...
That wasn’t natural lightning it was still Azula’s iirc, unless you’re talking bout a different scene then I’m thinking of.
 
Maitreya said:
Didn’t Iroh deflect natural cloud to ground lightning with his own lightning bending?
Click to expand...
When it had an obvious tell, enough time for everyone else to run inside, and from over a kilometer away, as it formed in the sky from storm clouds
 
LordGinSama said:
Plus like, wasn't it made a big deal whenever natural lightning both blitzed and one shot Aang whilst in The Avatar state?
Click to expand...
Azula one shot him from the back, yes.

But lightning bending is NEVER stated or even implied to be the same speed as literal lightning.

The only feat that relates to lightning for the entire verse, for REAL lightning, is when Iroh diverted a bolt on a ship in early Book 1.
Maitreya said:
Didn’t Iroh deflect natural cloud to ground lightning with his own lightning bending?
Click to expand...
And he was shocked as hell he even did that, and it would need a calc and no one even scales to Iroh. Especially not Season 1 Aang.

Also the way he deflected it implies he used himself as a rod rather than intercepted the bolt, as it comes at him from an angle that it was not naturally doing. The bolt was coming down vertically, yet approached Iroh horizontally, as if attracted to him.

But thats for the calc guys to figure out.
 
LordGinSama said:
Plus like, wasn't it made a big deal whenever natural lightning both blitzed and one shot Aang whilst in The Avatar state?
Click to expand...

huh? Thought he was off guard (and like shot in the spine area) at those times cuz he had no issue against Ozai and scales to Zuko who reacted to lightning multiple times.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
I would have to be in a "debate Weekly for 4 weeks straight" mood for that
Click to expand...
I mean all we gotta do is grab feats from Vol 4+ feats which are HHS+ and below to downgrade them

ANYWAYS I’m gonna do a basic rough estimate for Iroh’s speed, pics aren’t great cause my iPad is DOGSHIT Bad
 
The speed of a spark is (about, I've heard the resistance caused by environmental factors can be noticeably variable) proportionate to the square root of the voltage (cause duh) and it's pretty consistent in the show that people can't bend more than what they can generate themselves (otherwise it would be impossible for firebenders to ever fight each other even if one was massively stronger than the other), so considering the fact that Ozai is fairly relative to Iroh I think we can safely say that the lightning the former generated is probably comparable in speed to natural lightning.
 
Maitreya said:
Idk he still has to make these movements in time before the lightning reaches him. Plus we can see him move in between when the lightning reaches him meaning he should scale to it in speed.
Click to expand...
The movements he makes are miniscule and already happening before the lightning has reached him.

When the lightning first shows up, he's already getting into his stance, not reacting to the bolt. Then, if you go frame by frame when the perspective changes, he's barely moving at all, only completing his motion as the lightning hits his hand, then following it through.

That's also why he looks so shocked by it when the bolt is diverted, because he probably didn't even expect that to work or it happened so fast he's shocked it didn't kill him.

Tago238 said:
The speed of a spark is (about, I've heard the resistance caused by environmental factors can be noticeably variable) proportionate to the square root of the voltage (cause duh) and it's pretty consistent in the show that people can't bend more than what they can generate themselves (otherwise it would be impossible for firebenders to ever fight each other), so considering the fact that Ozai is fairly relative to Iroh I think we can safely say that the lightning the former generated is probably comparable in speed to natural lightning.
Click to expand...
That would make it's power equal to a lightning bolt, not the speed. And you're also ignoring that the basic principle of lightning redirection is that you're using yourself as a conduit to get RID of the lightning in a chosen direction, not bend it like normal bending.

Lightning redirection =/= lightning generation, as it is a style specifically made to counter it, and even runs the risk of KILLING YOU if you make a single mistake. So clearly, they cannot handle lightning at all if its not what they themselves created.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
That's also why he looks so shocked by it when the bolt is diverted, because he probably didn't even expect that to work or it happened so fast he's shocked it didn't kill him.
Click to expand...
That was clearly for comedic effect though? Avatar is a kid's show and this took place before lightningbending was properly established as a technique.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Also the way he deflected it implies he used himself as a rod rather than intercepted the bolt, as it comes at him from an angle that it was not naturally doing. The bolt was coming down vertically, yet approached Iroh horizontally, as if attracted to him.
Click to expand...

Uh to redirect lightning he needed to move his body before it struck him and he did so after seeing it coming. The bolt came down naturally and vertically not horizontally lol what?

While I do agree it needs to be calced, what you said here was wrong and unnecessary.




Also he was shocked because he was literally shocked. You can literally see his hair frizzing and a bit of steam coming off him.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Avatar: Zuko Blocks Lightning

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

This calc has been rejected for a LONG time, yet is still on every single profile as justification for Massively Hypersonic reactions and combat speed for the verse. This is a clear oversight from the wiki, and I propose this calc be purged from every profile and an alternative one be created for them to scale to.
Click to expand...
That calc is 6 years old, has never been given the "thumbs up" and is has been the only calc to justify that speed
It makes me wonder how a discussion rule for it even got added, when all signs point to the profiles being full of cobwebs
 
BrackishBrineBroth said:
That was clearly for comedic effect though? Avatar is a kid's show and this took place before lightningbending was properly established as a technique.
Click to expand...
That's not really an argument. Iroh knows very well that he is a lightning bender, and the concept of lightning bending is being established right here as a foreshadowing to Azula.

The movements he makes are the exact same movements he makes later to show Zuko how to redirect it. This is a callback to him redirecting this bolt. Claiming it wasn't established yet by the writers requires evidence on your side.
Arnoldstone18 said:
Uh to redirect lightning he needed to move his body before it struck him and he did so after seeing it coming. The bolt came down naturally and vertically not horizontally lol what?

While I do agree it needs to be calced, what you said here was wrong and unnecessary.




Also he was shocked because he was literally shocked. You can literally see his hair frizzing and a bit of steam coming off him.
Click to expand...
The first shot of Iroh, when he is moving into his stance, has the bolt coming at him towards his face. That is not vertical.

Also



You can see the lightning attract to Iroh and not move normally, in the middle of his stance.
 
I predict any calc of this will not yield the results people think it might, as the lightning is travelling a much further distance than Iroh is moving. His movements, compared to the bolt, are tiny, implying the bolt is much faster than him. This is combined with the fact he was already moving in the first place yet the bolt still caught up to him faster than his movements could be completed.

Also, again, no one scales to Iroh except maybe Ozai. The rest of the entire verse is not scaling to Ozai.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
I predict any calc of this will not yield the results people think it might, as the lightning is travelling a much further distance than Iroh is moving. His movements, compared to the bolt, are tiny, implying the bolt is much faster than him. This is combined with the fact he was already moving in the first place yet the bolt still caught up to him faster than his movements could be completed.

Also, again, no one scales to Iroh except maybe Ozai. The rest of the entire verse is not scaling to Ozai.
Click to expand...
Well I’m partially done so place your bets
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
I predict any calc of this will not yield the results people think it might, as the lightning is travelling a much further distance than Iroh is moving. His movements, compared to the bolt, are tiny, implying the bolt is much faster than him. This is combined with the fact he was already moving in the first place yet the bolt still caught up to him faster than his movements could be completed.

Also, again, no one scales to Iroh except maybe Ozai. The rest of the entire verse is not scaling to Ozai.
Click to expand...
People scale to Iroh and Ozai in speed.

Zuko straight up redirected lightning at Ozai and Azula hit Iroh.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
The first shot of Iroh, when he is moving into his stance, has the bolt coming at him towards his face. That is not vertical.

Also


You can see the lightning attract to Iroh and not move normally, in the middle of his stance.
Click to expand...

isnt that like a close shot and why does that matter if it’s still cloud to ground lightning? Lightning doesn’t have to go down in a straight line, it moves to the ground in an irregular fashion it doesn’t always have to be straight down from top to bottom… i mean why are your claims heavily backed up by that first shot when we have this?

IMG_0458.png
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
isnt that like a close shot and why does that matter if it’s still cloud to ground lightning? Lightning doesn’t have to go down in a straight line, it’s irregularly moves towards the ground… i mean why are your claims heavily backed up by that first shot when we have this?

IMG_0458.png
Click to expand...
"heavily"

Can you get a calc for that? I know very well that the outside shot of the ship shows the bolt going straight down, but that is contradicted by the first shot where it is coming across the ship at Iroh.

This shot just creates a scenario where now you don't even know how far the bolt was from Iroh when it hit him, because both of these shots can't be correct. If the first shot is wrong, then there's nothing to calc to even put Iroh reacting to the bolt in the first place.

Your stance is the one that requires him to have actually moved while the bolt was coming at him. This shot does not help you as you can't even see Iroh.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Also the way he deflected it implies he used himself as a rod rather than intercepted the bolt, as it comes at him from an angle that it was not naturally doing. The bolt was coming down vertically, yet approached Iroh horizontally, as if attracted to him.
Click to expand...
Disagree with him using himself as a rod; he just knew where the lightning would end up and adjusted his hand accordingly. If they used their hands as lures, then Zuko should have been able to catch lightning at the end of Bitter Work, but he confirmed later that his confrontation with Ozai was the first time he caught lightning. His eyes are even searching the sky for any lightning that might be coming his way.
 
Anyways, what did people bet that the calc would come out as?
Bet it’s not what you expect
 
BrackishBrineBroth said:
Disagree with him using himself as a rod; he just knew where the lightning would end up and adjusted his hand accordingly. If they used their hands as lures, then Zuko should have been able to catch lightning at the end of Bitter Work, but he confirmed later that his confrontation with Ozai was the first time he caught lightning. His eyes are even searching the sky for any lightning that might be coming his way.
Click to expand...
Yeah the fact that Zuko is confident that he can redirect natural lightning and the fact that Iroh’s done it before I think says they should be able to.
 
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