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Toaru Majutsu no Index General Discussion Thread 2

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Guys, looking at Ollerus' profile should we just change his range to unknown? maybe add a explanation for it aswell? I know Unknown attacks is kinda Ollerus' thing but It looks a bit funny considering the quote we have on his page.
 
I don't mind, but isn't "at least X" basically the equivalent of "Unknown, at least X"? I think anyone reading the page would realize that it means "this guy is likely better in this category, but this is the best we've seen". The quote is not really stating that Hliðskjálf has that kind of range.
 
Well I don't really care it's not a big deal, but the fact that Ollerus mentioned such a large number as a possibility dwarfs "at least a few metres" and no one is going to look at "at least a few metres" and think it extends to possibly thousands of kilometres.
 
Well, his page could use some tinkering anyway, so I'll just add a short explanation for the range to make it clearer.
 
Agreed with the fairy spell.

Durability negation, he.

I can guess were you're coming from (people not recognizing that characters that have things like reality warping, matter manipulation, spacetime manipulation and so on have that per default), but usually I don't add it to every page that has it, since it is exactly that obvious.

Well, I will sometime later add it to all magic gods. If we are consequent with that have all other characters with such hax have it listed in some form?
 
I usually add it if the character is at a lower tier and has an specific ability that negates or ignores durability, like Carissa or White Queen, since at their tiers the ability is notable. I also assumed that it would be obvious that a Low 2-C reality warper like Othinus has some forms to bypass conventional durability, such as Reality Warping, Matter Manipulation and her space destroying attacks, but it might be better to also list it in the Powers/Abilities List like other characters in higher tiers.
 
I'm thinking of doing a page for the animal type robots Baba Yoshio uses. As for AP, the Great Dane have this feat. Do Street level Durability and Athletic Human Speed sound fine?
 
Thanks. There's probably no more pages to do until next volume or until Kuriba and Hirumi do something. Kuriba only has Durability feats so far.
 
Well there are a few less fighting involved characters left (Saten, Uiharu, Himegami, Takitsubo or Kaitabi Hatsuya come to mind), but the impressive, non human stats, people are probably finished, yes.
 
"The rail car lurched violently and began to move. Soon the roof above Touma and Sasha's heads disappeared and they were given a vista of the sky. The sky was pitch black, an empty void without a single star."

[...]

Fiamma: "Using Gabriel to remove all the stars from the sky and leaving the Star of Bethlehem as the only thing floating in the incomplete heavens that are filled with Telesma was establishing the large flow of power needed for the ceremony to reset the four elements."

I can't believe I didn't notice when reading the volume (and everyone else probably did :/), but did gabriel move all stars out of the nightsky there? Astro in Hand would be a bit stronger than I thought then.
 
That's what it says it did. Of course, it doesn't make much sense, but Angel/Telesma is weird. The pitch black sky is mentioned multiple times, so it's probably legit. Even in the illustration of the fight between Accelerator, Kazakiri and Gabriel the sky is black, with only the lights of Sweep's magic circles (Not that this would be good evidence given the lack of details illustrations sometimes have, but it helps).

OT21 Gabriel turns the sky black:

The world turned to night.

As if everything had been instantaneously painted over with black, the sky turned to a night sky.

"You're kidding…"

That magic was so great that it gave one control of the positional relationships of the earth, the moon, and the sun. Kamijou could only stare in blank amazement upon seeing that.

It wasn't that he didn't understand the phenomenon he was seeing.

Kamijou Touma's eyes were opened wide to the limit and he was trembling because he did know.

He had seen that before.

It was an angel's spell.

That supernatural phenomenon was the buildup to the even greater spell known as Sweep that interfered with the movements of heavenly bodies, built up one's own power, and was enough to destroy the entire human race without moving a single fingertip. That was a true angel's spell. As such, it was clear what the being using it should be called.

Kamijou's face was paler than the night sky as he heard Fiamma continue to speak.

Fiamma sounded like he was enjoying himself.

He sounded like a soldier showing off a weapon he had heavily practiced with.

"No, I suppose I should refer to you as Misha Kreutzev here."

Immediately afterwards, some sort of blue point of light became visible in the pitch black night sky.

If one stared at it close enough, one might have seen the form of a person. However, it was so far away that it just looked like a small point of light.

OT21 Gabriel collapses into energy:

The mass of energy exploded. A pure white sphere of light exploded outwards, consuming everything in its path. Even if one closed their eyes, they would still have been blinded by that tremendous light. The pitch black night became a ceiling of pure brilliant white. Everything within a radius of several tens of kilometers should have become ash. This was not a simple explosion, but one of a Special Energy. It would not have been weird for some crazy side effects to be produced.
 
Hmm... so if the nightsky has 4548 Stars visible and Gabriel moved them to the other side of the earth or something to make it so that they are not visible, that would put Astro in hand probably in the solar system level category, no? (Given that Solar System level is 3565 times higher than star level)
 
I think so. I'm actually not 100% sure about this, considering the spell is not used for direct destruction and Kamachi focuses on the spell moving the Earth, Sun and the Moon, so it looks like an outlier. The only way you could argue the spell being directly used in a match would be a bloodlusted Gabriel doing something like dropping the Moon on the Earth, or sending Earth into the Sun.
 
Yes, it usually is used for the sake of construction magical arrays, wether focussed on the solar-system or not.

And as usual Astro in Hand would be listed seperate for gabriel, as it is not his usual way of attacking and he showed that his usual attacks aren't on that degree.


Either way I will make a revision thread for this, as it is an more major character update.
 
On second thought, it probably won't change much, as the few matches I've seen with Gabriel here take away Astro in Hand anyway. Maybe people don't realize it isn't really an attack, otherwise we would have Accelerator, Kazakiri and upper-Saint level fighters at Star level already.
 
Thread created.

Yeah, if we would scale Astro in hand around the powerlevels of top tiers would be insane...

Maybe we should write a sentence in the description of Astro in hand mentioning that it usually isn't used to attack directly.
 
Chapter 88 of Railgun was translated. Kuriba's Doppelgangre is now pretty solid Wall level physically, and there's a bit more fuel to the prototype Rensa theory. Plus Seike and Naru showing off more applications of her powers and Ya using a new chemical. We still don't have a page for Ya, now that I think about it.

Accelerator's raws seem promising, though honestly this arc has gone for far too long for the first manga arc, it should have had a smaller one or some independent chapters like Railgun as introduction before doing a major arc like this. Am I the only one that thought Accelerator seems to be using a Rasengan to save Hasami's zombie?
 
I've added a general in-universe tier list so that people who are unfamiliar with the verse can have an idea of how high a character is in the verse's power levels. Input on possible mistakes, corrections or additional characters will be appreciated. Especially in which tier should we put Misaki, Izzard, Etzali, etc... I'm leaving Noukan and the AAA aside until we know more about the suit's power, but since it did manage to defeat a restricted Zombie they might go to the Joker tier.

Also, Kamachi has released a crossover between Heavy Object and Toaru/Boo Boo on his official website.
 
LazyHunter said:
Also, Kamachi has released a crossover between Heavy Object and Toaru/Boo Boo on his official website.
Click to expand...
kamachi likes writing crossovers, eh? But I wonder if he will be able to play heavy object well in that setting. (I have the feeling crossover beatrice or boo boo will end up city level somehow...)


To the tier list:

I agree on the god tier, that is basically magic god / could be magic god level.

For the high tier:

I suppose gabriel belongs there if you count astro in hand, but I wonder if in universe it wouldn't make more sense to have angels (Kazakiri, Accelerator, Kakine, Rensa and Gabriel) together, since they build an in-universe class of power.

In that regards I would also consider to put saints and saint level fighters (knight leader and probably also curtana users)

One could consider simply making something like Angel tier and saint tier.


Not sure if gunha and level 6 shift misaka should be together with saints, angels or in gunhas case below.

I would consider Birdway and Mjölnir below saints. Even though being capable to fight one they don't quite reach their stats.

For mid and low tier things get generally very unordered, because abilities get too important. For example thor would probably belong there without mjölnir, but is unbeatable by any of them.

Well, Izzard would go mid I think.

Misaki... I don't know. Stat wise low, but given her ability... maybe joker?

I would also take 50/50 othinus out of joker. While her ability depends highly on probability she is during that condition still reliably on ollerus level making her a top tier either way.
 
I think the crossover is more: Crossover shenanigans happen, Quenser ends up in AC and Heivia ends up in Grandnir; but the crossover will probably involve a new Object, since even the short crossover with Toaru that had Touma visiting HO world had one.

Tiers can ve very wide, Mugino and Mikoto are in the upper Middle Tier, but I don't think they are strong enough to classify for the High Tier. I consider the High Tier to basically have the City to Island level people, mostly the characters who are tough enough to defeat most of the characters in lower tiers with ease, and can put a fight with characters on their own tier (Barring strong hax cases like Accelerator's). Accelerator, Kazakiri, Kakine and Rensa would be upper High Tiers in their Angel forms, above Saints but still below Gabriel.

I considered Gabriel's Astro in Hand as enough to put it above Accelerator and Fuze, even if its use is indirect. I should probably list Thor as Mjolnir!Thor and put normal Thor in the Middle tier due to raw power (despite Almighty being very good hax that would hold up in the High Tier). Izzard and Vento have the same issue of good hax for their tier, lack raw power.

Misaki does sound like a joker, as she theoretically can easily control any human that lacks speed/a defense against her power, but would be overwhelmed by animals and robots. She was useless against the Elements despite being a Level 5, so the tier fits well. As for Othinus, while she can use a lot of raw power, her probability limitation is still important and repeated a lot in-universe, so I think she also fits the mold perfectly.
 
Well, if you want to rank it after the stat perspective instead the in-universe power ranking, that makes sense. (in-universe I would believe the difference between saint and angel to be more notable than between angel and archangel, even though the latter is larger stat wise)


You're right about aureolus. I still had him in mind as town level, since he was listed as such out of some reason some time ago.


Still sceptical about 50/50 othinus though.

I believe her explosions for example might not be a spell reliant of the 50/50 part, giving her some reliable base amount and even if they are... well as said she is able to compete with ollerus. Essentially probability dictates that if a coin is thrown 1000 times the result will be exceedingly close to 500 times head, so a certain average output can be reached even for her abilities based on luck.

In other words, without probability manipulation I would doubt someone significantly weaker beating her and at least in the verse there aren't any much stronger characters she might beat by per chance getting good rolls.
 
I also think adding the "god tier , high tier etc" would be good thing people still misunderstanding toaru power levels , and most of toaru fights aren't really based on the raw power for each character
 
Hmm since god tier and top tier are obvious i think anyone who is about equal to accel in his angle form should be high tier "kakine , fuse kazakiri , rensa etc "

Gabriel should be Top tier with astro in the hand
 
@DontTalk

Yeah, the tier list is more in terms of raw power so that people unfamiliar with the verse can see which characters are stronger in stats than others. I figure it would be useful since the character list is pretty big and we group them by groups and affiliations, not by power levels. Individual Hax/Powers overturning the difference in stats is not counted unless it's really notable like Touma and Kakeru, which makes the character go to the Joker tier.

I'll add regular Thor, Izzard, Vento and Terra to the Middle tier + Misaki to the Joker tier.

If you are really so iffy about 50/50 Othinus maybe we could put her as a Top Tier with a note about her probability limitations.
 
If it were only Touma and Kakeru in that tier I'd have totally called it that. They were adressed in-story as jokers compared to kings and aces, so it's still a good name based on the series,
 
Hey, I had forgotten about this part. From Norse Mythology SS (Mark Space stopping the fight between Birdway and Kaori):

"If two monster-class magicians fought in an enclosed area like this, the outer walls would definitely be destroyed from within. If that happened, we would be done for. It may be no problem for you two to survive with zero pressure and no oxygen, but unfortunately, I have not abandoned the laws of physics to that extent. I beg you to not get me wrapped up in this. Do you understand?"

Birdway answers that he's right (which pisses her off), and we know that Kaori is able to survive in a vacuum. Should we note that likely possibility in Birdway's page?
 
Wow, 15 days without post here. Suppose that is the inbetween volume silence.

So just to have talked about this:

"He focused on his trajectory.

The several meter path to Othinus appeared clearly in his head.

…The ninth shot ignored the concept of numbers.

The arrows that fell from above colored the night sky like fireworks and glittered like stars covering the heavens."

and

"Time stopped.

Space was compressed.

The standard concepts of time and space no longer had any meaning.

The lance of the head Norse god was named Gungnir. Its handle was made from the wood of an ash tree, the same as the world tree, its sharp tip was made from gold, and it had tremendous power due to the runes personally carved into the Dvergr-made base by the head god. "


We take the mentioning of ignoring concepts here as a manner of speach and not possibly as part of conceptual manipulation, right?
 
I don't think theres any set rule that you must follow for it, seeing as it may or may not be more reliable/believable depending on the tiering of said person

My impression is that it's just fancy wording.
 
Second suggestion of the day:

If we list aleister as "possibly Multiverse level+"

shouldn't we list the magic gods as "likely Multiverse level+", because they would inhert Aleisters "possibly" together with them being unlikely one shotted by each other (as also suggested by the "They can withstand a single attack from another Magic God."-statement in their weakened form)
 
IMO if Aleister could survive fighting High Priest, it stands to reason the Magic Gods would not simply oneshot each other in a fight. Something like "At least Universe level+ (Survived the destruction of the hidden world), likely Multiverse level+ (Likely capable of fighting other Magic Gods)" sounds okay.

I agree with Aizen about the description of the attacks being just wording to make it sound more impressive.
 
I agree with changing their durability to either what you suggested DT or what Lazy suggested. Either one is good. I'm not sure whether anyone has noticed or not but having their Striking Strength as Multiversal+ and their Durability as Universe level+ looks off.
 
"Whether we peacefully talk it out or exchange blows, our actions could unintentionally shake destiny to the point that the outside world is destroyed." <- Another hint at them being capable of fighting each other, which reminds me that I might as well give them fate manipulation, if I'm at it.

Either way. I think I will go with LazyHunters suggestion then. Will be added in a bit.


About the Striking strength part: I don't quite know where you see the problem with having Multiversal+ striking strength and universe level+ durability. I gave them that striking strength because of the shattering universes by moving an arm with a fraction of their power thingy.
 
Saw Accelerator Manga's last raws... I wish the translation would come soon to be able to know what they are talking about, since the Tree of Sephirot seems to be pretty important with whatever Hirumi/Taowu want to do. Let's hope the final fight it's not too long, we're 30 chapters in and still in the first arc.
 
DontTalk said:
About the Striking strength part: I don't quite know where you see the problem with having Multiversal+ striking strength and universe level+ durability. I gave them that striking strength because of the shattering universes by moving an arm with a fraction of their power thingy.
Click to expand...
If they were to punch someone that hard, how does it not scale to their durability?
 
Because they don't punch themself that hard?

You are thinking in terms of Newtons third law, I suppose. That usually isn't considered in fiction (because in fiction you can be strong without being durable, the same way you can be strong without being fast) and certainly wouldn't be relevant to a punch that disobeys the laws of physics.


@LazyHunter: The Tree of Sephirot, huh? When was the last time we saw that mentioned? Angel Fall arc?

Makes it sound like Angels are involved, but probably has more to do with the level of souls in this case.

If thats the case we deal with souls in both side stories...
 
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