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Toaru Majutsu no Index General Discussion Thread 2
- Thread starter LordAizenSama
- Start date
- Status
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Yeah the explanation didn't really make much sense to me. Though then again this enemy has had some way to bypass Accelerators reflection a bit.
Another thing i've wondered about, here and here is Accelerator reflecting the teleportation here? I can't figure out any other reason why he would mention calculations.
Another thing i've wondered about, here and here is Accelerator reflecting the teleportation here? I can't figure out any other reason why he would mention calculations.
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This is how I understood it:
The Taotie is described as a material teleportation power that switches around objects in chapter 21. Notably, the Taotie doesn't teleport Accel there to get him away from the Hundun, but instead switches the Hundun with one of its missiles. Later the Taotie and Qiong Qi get a boost after Hishigata uploads the data from the Sisters in chapter 24. In the same chapter Hishigata explains how the Taotie's esper power works, and it doesn't seem to work the same way as the other three Teleporters in the series, it just swaps positions of stuff and not transport the user to some coordinates through the 11th dimension. Next chapter Hishigata also explains that Accel was teleported by the linked Taotie and Qiong Qi, and we already know that Qiong Qi has some trick to slightly bypass Accel's reflection. Accelerator also identifies the power as "Asport", so probably a subsection of teleportation powers. Those last two pages that Aizen links are the Qiong Qi's Psychokinesis failing to affect Accelerator like it did earlier (its eyes light up when it uses Psychokinesis, so it wasn't the Taotie), so going by Accelerator's comment, the trick was related to Qiong Qi's calculation abilities, which were obviously diminished by the damage it took.
The Taotie is described as a material teleportation power that switches around objects in chapter 21. Notably, the Taotie doesn't teleport Accel there to get him away from the Hundun, but instead switches the Hundun with one of its missiles. Later the Taotie and Qiong Qi get a boost after Hishigata uploads the data from the Sisters in chapter 24. In the same chapter Hishigata explains how the Taotie's esper power works, and it doesn't seem to work the same way as the other three Teleporters in the series, it just swaps positions of stuff and not transport the user to some coordinates through the 11th dimension. Next chapter Hishigata also explains that Accel was teleported by the linked Taotie and Qiong Qi, and we already know that Qiong Qi has some trick to slightly bypass Accel's reflection. Accelerator also identifies the power as "Asport", so probably a subsection of teleportation powers. Those last two pages that Aizen links are the Qiong Qi's Psychokinesis failing to affect Accelerator like it did earlier (its eyes light up when it uses Psychokinesis, so it wasn't the Taotie), so going by Accelerator's comment, the trick was related to Qiong Qi's calculation abilities, which were obviously diminished by the damage it took.
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Currently reading Road to Endymion and stumbled upon this:
""It might have been the Anglican Church," said Index cautiously. "This people-clearing field is only keeping people from approaching. People outside of it can see and hear the explosion, but they are unable to reach the actual location. This version was likely created to minimize the burden so it can be used on the move!""
For one thing this seems to imply that people outside the field can usually not see and hear things happening inside, but even if they do the spell can still keep a person from approaching.
So people clearing fields seem to be more potent than I to this point assumed they are...
""It might have been the Anglican Church," said Index cautiously. "This people-clearing field is only keeping people from approaching. People outside of it can see and hear the explosion, but they are unable to reach the actual location. This version was likely created to minimize the burden so it can be used on the move!""
For one thing this seems to imply that people outside the field can usually not see and hear things happening inside, but even if they do the spell can still keep a person from approaching.
So people clearing fields seem to be more potent than I to this point assumed they are...
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Yeah, as Index said, there are various versions of the field. That one is a simpler one made to be reapplied when moving, so it doesn't actually "hide" what's happening, it only keeps people away.
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Sooo... I made a calc for Brahma Astra, so I should probably also create a profile to it.
So Ureapaddy:
AP: Wall level with her Shiva Astra (Trishula melted asphalt and Parashu created a large cut in it), Small City level with incomplete and spammable Brahma Astra, Small Country level with complete Brahma Astra
Speed: Not sure if I should go for Athletic Human or Peak Human. The cabbles characteristic trait is "their method of training their physical bodies to the limit using extreme exercises, fasting, and the like." so I would supposed that Ureapaddy is superior to a average human to some degree.
Lifting and Striking stength, more or less the same as for speed.
Durability: If I don't miss anything Ureapaddy didn't got hit even once during the novel. So... Athlete level, possibly higher with magic?
Range: planetary with Brahma Astra, several meters with Shiva Astra
About the limits/uses of Brahma Astra:
-She can use Brahma Astra also without the requirements. At one point that was described as just a normal metal arrow and pierced though a metal container. But then there is this quote:
"It had pierced straight through those acting as shields. The attack had directly reached Kipsila and the other. That had stopped any preparations for a counterattack and then subsequent strikes had wiped them out. Once it started to crumble, an organization was nothing but a hindrance. The members of the magic cabal unit had started to fall one after another, yet the enemy continued to attack without mercy."
I wonder if the use without preperations, while having not much power, possibly still retains the property on phasing though everything except the target. The quote could imply that.
- She can manage one or two shots without the space elevator. This probably means incomplete shots, so the complete version probably requires it.
Does that look about right?
So Ureapaddy:
AP: Wall level with her Shiva Astra (Trishula melted asphalt and Parashu created a large cut in it), Small City level with incomplete and spammable Brahma Astra, Small Country level with complete Brahma Astra
Speed: Not sure if I should go for Athletic Human or Peak Human. The cabbles characteristic trait is "their method of training their physical bodies to the limit using extreme exercises, fasting, and the like." so I would supposed that Ureapaddy is superior to a average human to some degree.
Lifting and Striking stength, more or less the same as for speed.
Durability: If I don't miss anything Ureapaddy didn't got hit even once during the novel. So... Athlete level, possibly higher with magic?
Range: planetary with Brahma Astra, several meters with Shiva Astra
About the limits/uses of Brahma Astra:
-She can use Brahma Astra also without the requirements. At one point that was described as just a normal metal arrow and pierced though a metal container. But then there is this quote:
"It had pierced straight through those acting as shields. The attack had directly reached Kipsila and the other. That had stopped any preparations for a counterattack and then subsequent strikes had wiped them out. Once it started to crumble, an organization was nothing but a hindrance. The members of the magic cabal unit had started to fall one after another, yet the enemy continued to attack without mercy."
I wonder if the use without preperations, while having not much power, possibly still retains the property on phasing though everything except the target. The quote could imply that.
- She can manage one or two shots without the space elevator. This probably means incomplete shots, so the complete version probably requires it.
Does that look about right?
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That sounds about right. I think putting her as "at least Athletic Human" for Speed and Durability would suffice since she doesn't have any feats, but should be better than a normal person. About the quote for Brahma Astra without the requirements, it's a bit ambiguous, as "piercing" could mean it had enough strength to go right through a person to harm someone behind.
I'm kind of wondering if there's enough evidence to make a general reaction speed upgrade for good fighters of the series who don't have feats. So far we have:
Subsonic reactions: Misaki Shokuhou, Musujime Awaki, Kumokawa Maria, Tsuchimikado Motoharu
Supersonic reactions: Kuroyoru Umidori, Naru, Stiyl Magnus, Marian Slingeneyer, possibly Kagun/Bersi, Hitokawa Hasami
To note is that while Misaki and Awaki's reactions likely come from her high Level (And could indicate Subsonic reactions for Lv 4 espers), Maria and Motoharu's could be said to come from their skill as fighters/martial artists, as they are faily low Level, and Motoharu is not doing it with magic.
Would Aureolus Dummy's use of his Limen Magna be a good speed fea for Aureolus? He throws and retracts his chain up to at least ten meters, six to ten times per second.
As if to erase Stiyl's scornful voice, Aureolus fired the Limen Magna from his right suit sleeve. His roar in itself could have supplied the force at which he fired it. It turned into a golden laser and left a stream of afterimages because its launch-rewind speed was just too fast. He may have been a magician, but Stiyl still had a human body. He could never
follow the storm of bullets. It was reaching ten shots per second. As a result, six shots out of ten penetrated through him all over, from his face to his ankles, like a sewing machine.
(Note: Stiyl did use a mirage to dodge the attack)
They were fast. The time it took for Aureolus Dummy to fire, the arrowhead to break, and for him to ready the next shot was under a fifth of a second; it was impossible for a human to keep up. But Kamijou couldn't carelessly flee, either. He knew that averting his attention for a split second, to speak nothing of turning his back on it, would give the arrowheads the chance to puncture vital spots on his chest and face.
Aureolus Dummy's panic ballooned even further. But even while panic was affecting his abilities, he could still keep up the pace of firing and rewinding six Limen Magna in one second. He easily withdrew the arrowhead into his hands and fired a second shot aimed at the face of Kamijou.
I'm kind of wondering if there's enough evidence to make a general reaction speed upgrade for good fighters of the series who don't have feats. So far we have:
Subsonic reactions: Misaki Shokuhou, Musujime Awaki, Kumokawa Maria, Tsuchimikado Motoharu
Supersonic reactions: Kuroyoru Umidori, Naru, Stiyl Magnus, Marian Slingeneyer, possibly Kagun/Bersi, Hitokawa Hasami
To note is that while Misaki and Awaki's reactions likely come from her high Level (And could indicate Subsonic reactions for Lv 4 espers), Maria and Motoharu's could be said to come from their skill as fighters/martial artists, as they are faily low Level, and Motoharu is not doing it with magic.
Would Aureolus Dummy's use of his Limen Magna be a good speed fea for Aureolus? He throws and retracts his chain up to at least ten meters, six to ten times per second.
As if to erase Stiyl's scornful voice, Aureolus fired the Limen Magna from his right suit sleeve. His roar in itself could have supplied the force at which he fired it. It turned into a golden laser and left a stream of afterimages because its launch-rewind speed was just too fast. He may have been a magician, but Stiyl still had a human body. He could never
follow the storm of bullets. It was reaching ten shots per second. As a result, six shots out of ten penetrated through him all over, from his face to his ankles, like a sewing machine.
(Note: Stiyl did use a mirage to dodge the attack)
They were fast. The time it took for Aureolus Dummy to fire, the arrowhead to break, and for him to ready the next shot was under a fifth of a second; it was impossible for a human to keep up. But Kamijou couldn't carelessly flee, either. He knew that averting his attention for a split second, to speak nothing of turning his back on it, would give the arrowheads the chance to puncture vital spots on his chest and face.
Aureolus Dummy's panic ballooned even further. But even while panic was affecting his abilities, he could still keep up the pace of firing and rewinding six Limen Magna in one second. He easily withdrew the arrowhead into his hands and fired a second shot aimed at the face of Kamijou.
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About Aureolus:
10 meters back and forth 10 times per second is 200 m/s. That is Subsonic+.
That would probably just be his attack speed though.
Since he has 0.1 seconds to aim his chain, performing the movement itself is within the capabilities of a human (thoug a human could of course not accelerate the chain to such speeds)
About the general speed:
It's tempting, but I am sceptical about associating esper level with stats (well, attack potency of the same ability might work)
Like for magicians as well I think an espers reaction speed depends on their expertise in battle.
So we can scale fighters better than the ones you mentioned to them, but the problem is how to determine if they are better in the terms we want.
The attack potency doesn't relate their speed (ureapaddy is the best example) and neither does every good fighter have high reactions as they can be good fighters through good useage of their powers instead.
That of course also means that scaling through who defeated who does not work all too well.
All in all that leaves us with only with cases were more or less direct comparisions are made, so a general upgrade probably doesn't work.
10 meters back and forth 10 times per second is 200 m/s. That is Subsonic+.
That would probably just be his attack speed though.
Since he has 0.1 seconds to aim his chain, performing the movement itself is within the capabilities of a human (thoug a human could of course not accelerate the chain to such speeds)
About the general speed:
It's tempting, but I am sceptical about associating esper level with stats (well, attack potency of the same ability might work)
Like for magicians as well I think an espers reaction speed depends on their expertise in battle.
So we can scale fighters better than the ones you mentioned to them, but the problem is how to determine if they are better in the terms we want.
The attack potency doesn't relate their speed (ureapaddy is the best example) and neither does every good fighter have high reactions as they can be good fighters through good useage of their powers instead.
That of course also means that scaling through who defeated who does not work all too well.
All in all that leaves us with only with cases were more or less direct comparisions are made, so a general upgrade probably doesn't work.
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Shame, I was mostly thinking about the Lv 4 Espers like Kuroko, Saiai, Mitori, etc... who are stuck at Normal to Peak Human while Naru (Lv 3 with Lv 4 skills) has Supersonic reactions. As for fighters, I was thinking about scaling the likely best martial artists in the series (Amata, Sugitani, Teshio Megumi and Saflee Opendays) to Maria and Tsuchimikado and give them Subsonic reactions.
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Well, I can see where you are coming from. It is a bit strange for them to have lower reactions then some of the other fighters. (Though I also would find at strange for kuroko to be above Amata, but that is maybe just me.)
But while I on a personal level agree with that I don't really see a way to prove/argue that point properly. If you can put together proper arguments for the characters you could try to see if a content revision thread results in agreement (though the usual lack of contribution will probably appear...)
Scaling Teshio Megumi to Tsuchimikado might actually work, given that tsuchimikado could barely react to her movements she is either subsonic or can coordinate her attacks above the level of someone with subsonic reactions, which one could give subsonic reactions for, I guess.
Then again for her: "Tsuchimikado just barely managed to pull the trigger before she got within punching range.
However, Teshio entered a boxing stance and bent over far enough to kiss Tsuchimikado on the knee causing the bullet to pass her by."
Assuming muzzle velocity of 400 m/s, barely out of punching range being about 1 meter and bending down to knee level about 0.6 meters gives reaction time of 2.5 milliseconds (Supersonic perception) and speed of Mach 0.7 (Subsonic+).
So she might be around Subsonic+ either way, except we assume that the events here were written out of order so that it was aim dodging, but in this case there is no reason to assume so, I think.
But while I on a personal level agree with that I don't really see a way to prove/argue that point properly. If you can put together proper arguments for the characters you could try to see if a content revision thread results in agreement (though the usual lack of contribution will probably appear...)
Scaling Teshio Megumi to Tsuchimikado might actually work, given that tsuchimikado could barely react to her movements she is either subsonic or can coordinate her attacks above the level of someone with subsonic reactions, which one could give subsonic reactions for, I guess.
Then again for her: "Tsuchimikado just barely managed to pull the trigger before she got within punching range.
However, Teshio entered a boxing stance and bent over far enough to kiss Tsuchimikado on the knee causing the bullet to pass her by."
Assuming muzzle velocity of 400 m/s, barely out of punching range being about 1 meter and bending down to knee level about 0.6 meters gives reaction time of 2.5 milliseconds (Supersonic perception) and speed of Mach 0.7 (Subsonic+).
So she might be around Subsonic+ either way, except we assume that the events here were written out of order so that it was aim dodging, but in this case there is no reason to assume so, I think.
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I agree with you in that there's really no good way to argue for the upgrade. I can't think of any evidence that I could provide for the reactions of those fighters I mentioned besides the scaling to similar characters I already mentioned or stuff that it isn't already mentioned in the pages. Besides those I can't think of any feats for them. Or Stephanie Gorgeouspalace, who on second thought is also likely on that level of skill.
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I'm not really caught up but what would happen if imagine breaker and world rejector clashed?
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Well, it already happened, and WR erased IB only for Kakeru to be overwhelmed by the Invisible Thing. He blamed it on the slight time lag between uses, so it's possibly he would have been able to defend himself otherwise.
As for the picture, both seem fine to me, so I don't known which to pick.
As for the picture, both seem fine to me, so I don't known which to pick.
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So... should we add zombies spell to her page? It seems like one of the cases were it is notable even with the given reality warping. (though I wouldn't add an extra key for everyone affected, as discussed before)
And if we do what should we call it? I'm in favor of "Onion spell" ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
And if we do what should we call it? I'm in favor of "Onion spell" ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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I think it's notable enough to be added to the Gremlin Magic Gods' pages, unlike their more minor spells. Probably just add it as an ability and note that is optional and that they trade the "accidental universe collapse" for the infinite layers of existence.
Or go full weaboo: "Glorious Majin existence, folded ∞ times".
Or go full weaboo: "Glorious Majin existence, folded ∞ times".
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I added it as "Existence Layering Spell" for now. I would have used "Glorious Majin existence, folded ∞ times", but I wanted that it has the word "spell" in it.
If we add it for the other magic gods we would probably have to do so as key, given that they can not use the spell themselfs. So for them it really is a different state. But if we do it as a key the question is which stats we assume for that state. (Universe level+ for AP, but I don't know for the rest)
If we add it for the other magic gods we would probably have to do so as key, given that they can not use the spell themselfs. So for them it really is a different state. But if we do it as a key the question is which stats we assume for that state. (Universe level+ for AP, but I don't know for the rest)
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Speed and Durability are unknowns, since they didn't do much until they were nerfed further. Kamachi is not very good at giving definite speeds, and the only thing that the narration mentions about their Durability are pretty vague. There's the conversation High Priest has with Aleister in NT12's Epilogue that shows he's still confident in Aleister not being able to kill them, so they are likely still powerful enough to beat him.
"Word gets to you quickly. Anyway, this might be an excellent opportunity for you, Aleister. Our power is limited to what can be explained in this world, so this would be the best time to kill us."
Even that line had the implied caveat of "but it is still essentially impossible".
For one thing, no one existed who could kill a being that the world could only just barely contain. Whether a Magic God's power was divided by a billion or a trillion, a mere magician was still not enough to kill them.
The Magic God's existence was infinitely layered like a matryoshka doll or an onion. A Magic God was impossible to kill in the first place, but one would have to kill them a trillion or a quadrillion times before they would cease to exist.
Unrelated, but given that the justification for Fiamma's base stats is not great, do you think we should change that to mention the Eurasia thing and this:
His right arm altered the strength of the power it presented to match the strength of the enemy he must defeat. And Fiamma had determined his enemy was World War III. In other words, it was a great calamity that could destroy an entire planet contaminating the surrounding area of space with a large amount of debris. By bringing together the Star of Bethlehem, Misha Kreutzev, and the flesh-and-blood right arm that acted as a container for Imagine Breaker, he should have succeeded in drawing out the proper ability. Fiamma should possess the power to single-handedly claim victory over that large war that was a mix of science and magic. It was like the power to destroy all of humanity on the face of the earth. He was trying to use that for the sake of salvation, but it would have been possible for him to bring an end to human history if he used it in a certain way.
However…
"…Why were you able to stop that?" Fiamma muttered.
He adjusted his grip on the remote control spiritual item.
The golden light in the heavens focused together and rained down straight for Kamijou Touma matching the movement of Fiamma's third arm.
"Is it that great an ability? It is merely the power to negate the supernatural!! It is merely the power to grab and twist a power it cannot completely negate!! …I should be able to sink an entire continent into the ocean with a single wave of my right arm. I should be able to dry up all the water in the oceans with a single strike!! You were nothing more than an adapter connected to that right arm until the designated time. You were nothing more than a potato shoot that is to be returned to the earth after the potato is collected!!"
"Word gets to you quickly. Anyway, this might be an excellent opportunity for you, Aleister. Our power is limited to what can be explained in this world, so this would be the best time to kill us."
Even that line had the implied caveat of "but it is still essentially impossible".
For one thing, no one existed who could kill a being that the world could only just barely contain. Whether a Magic God's power was divided by a billion or a trillion, a mere magician was still not enough to kill them.
The Magic God's existence was infinitely layered like a matryoshka doll or an onion. A Magic God was impossible to kill in the first place, but one would have to kill them a trillion or a quadrillion times before they would cease to exist.
Unrelated, but given that the justification for Fiamma's base stats is not great, do you think we should change that to mention the Eurasia thing and this:
His right arm altered the strength of the power it presented to match the strength of the enemy he must defeat. And Fiamma had determined his enemy was World War III. In other words, it was a great calamity that could destroy an entire planet contaminating the surrounding area of space with a large amount of debris. By bringing together the Star of Bethlehem, Misha Kreutzev, and the flesh-and-blood right arm that acted as a container for Imagine Breaker, he should have succeeded in drawing out the proper ability. Fiamma should possess the power to single-handedly claim victory over that large war that was a mix of science and magic. It was like the power to destroy all of humanity on the face of the earth. He was trying to use that for the sake of salvation, but it would have been possible for him to bring an end to human history if he used it in a certain way.
However…
"…Why were you able to stop that?" Fiamma muttered.
He adjusted his grip on the remote control spiritual item.
The golden light in the heavens focused together and rained down straight for Kamijou Touma matching the movement of Fiamma's third arm.
"Is it that great an ability? It is merely the power to negate the supernatural!! It is merely the power to grab and twist a power it cannot completely negate!! …I should be able to sink an entire continent into the ocean with a single wave of my right arm. I should be able to dry up all the water in the oceans with a single strike!! You were nothing more than an adapter connected to that right arm until the designated time. You were nothing more than a potato shoot that is to be returned to the earth after the potato is collected!!"
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Yes, the Fiamma edit is fine.
Well, with the onion spell aleister has of course still no way to kill them, as long as their attack potency is still universe level+.
Well, I will add a key for the layering to the magic gods then. Basically just unknowns with universe level+ AP then.
Edit: I will do so in a few hours >,<
Well, with the onion spell aleister has of course still no way to kill them, as long as their attack potency is still universe level+.
Well, I will add a key for the layering to the magic gods then. Basically just unknowns with universe level+ AP then.
Edit: I will do so in a few hours >,<
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Well, Noukan killed Zombie with the layering spell using AAA before Aleister could nerf them, but that seems to be part of the unknown hax that the machine receives from Aleister's willpower.
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So, in the end I decided to go for the idea of just adding it as technique, that you suggested.
Using a key makes to many unknowns, to be beautiful and even teh one stat we know is reasoned a bit roundabout, which just makes it hard to explain.
To another topic: I have finished reading NT 16.
Using a key makes to many unknowns, to be beautiful and even teh one stat we know is reasoned a bit roundabout, which just makes it hard to explain.
To another topic: I have finished reading NT 16.
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I've also finished NT16.I liked it a lot, though the final battle could have used more pages. Not really much in the way of feats or new pages, though. Probably just a page for Elements and add Claire and Elza's new abilities to their pages.
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Kihara Yuiitsus page probably also need to be updated, with new abilities.
When I first read that the whole city was swarmed with monsters, I thought that they were pulled into some pocket dimension or something, since AC wouldn't be so easily overrun. Well, I was wrong and could go on about that being a bit unrealistic, but I shouldn't be surprised that authors don't go by battle logic and the idea was cool. All in all I enjoyed the first part with some of his classmates getting a bit more text again. I really enjoyed the Tokiwadai part as contrast, with the people being more capable and scientific in approach. Of course Misaka having build her own A.A.A. and fighting with it was a highlight as well.
And with that we get to the Kamisato harem part. HIs harem as a whole was of course perfectly prepared and practicle, has more firepower than the Tokiwadai and can easily run straight through the city. And Kamisato shows that even without World Rejector he can somehow still fight better than most members of his harmen and without much problems is capable of defeating his opponent. Then he gets to sacrifice himself for his loved ones and for the sins he did in his past.
If Kihara Yuiitsu would actually have stayed defeated in the end, it would have been the perfect Mary Sue scenario.
So in a certain sense that chapter was terrible.
Then again, because Yuiitsu didn't stay defeated, because his self sacrifice only made things worse for his harem and because of the general theme that this isn't the kind of ending touma accepts things look differently.
All in all Touma now gets to rescue kamisato and bring things to the touma kind of ending.
I can even imagine that Kamachi on purpose wrote the chapter unsatisfying in that regard, just to make the following turn all the more satisfying. If that works out well will show in the next volume, but I think it will work out well and hope that kamisato finally gets the punch in the face he deserves so much (IMO).
Between good and bad, it would be good, but between like and dislike, I dislike it. But that is what the chapter is made for, I think.
Except for the upgrades to the already named ones, I wonder if Misakas self-builf A.A.A. isn't there to stay. After all she can simply rebuild it.
So it possibly is worth to even add a key for that version, what do you think?
One should just somehow avoid copying all stats from her base form.
When I first read that the whole city was swarmed with monsters, I thought that they were pulled into some pocket dimension or something, since AC wouldn't be so easily overrun. Well, I was wrong and could go on about that being a bit unrealistic, but I shouldn't be surprised that authors don't go by battle logic and the idea was cool. All in all I enjoyed the first part with some of his classmates getting a bit more text again. I really enjoyed the Tokiwadai part as contrast, with the people being more capable and scientific in approach. Of course Misaka having build her own A.A.A. and fighting with it was a highlight as well.
And with that we get to the Kamisato harem part. HIs harem as a whole was of course perfectly prepared and practicle, has more firepower than the Tokiwadai and can easily run straight through the city. And Kamisato shows that even without World Rejector he can somehow still fight better than most members of his harmen and without much problems is capable of defeating his opponent. Then he gets to sacrifice himself for his loved ones and for the sins he did in his past.
If Kihara Yuiitsu would actually have stayed defeated in the end, it would have been the perfect Mary Sue scenario.
So in a certain sense that chapter was terrible.
Then again, because Yuiitsu didn't stay defeated, because his self sacrifice only made things worse for his harem and because of the general theme that this isn't the kind of ending touma accepts things look differently.
All in all Touma now gets to rescue kamisato and bring things to the touma kind of ending.
I can even imagine that Kamachi on purpose wrote the chapter unsatisfying in that regard, just to make the following turn all the more satisfying. If that works out well will show in the next volume, but I think it will work out well and hope that kamisato finally gets the punch in the face he deserves so much (IMO).
Between good and bad, it would be good, but between like and dislike, I dislike it. But that is what the chapter is made for, I think.
Except for the upgrades to the already named ones, I wonder if Misakas self-builf A.A.A. isn't there to stay. After all she can simply rebuild it.
So it possibly is worth to even add a key for that version, what do you think?
One should just somehow avoid copying all stats from her base form.
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I'm in favour of updating Yuiitsu and Mikoto's pages too. I'll try to make the Elements page soon, their stats seem to be simple enough.
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weren't they just unaffected because Othinus' power could not reach the hidden world? Whether that's a feat of acausality or not I dunno. the stuff is a bit tricky to me.
would them existing in space which does not exist account for anything?
would them existing in space which does not exist account for anything?
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Well, this does include othinus herself actually. It doesn't really matter all that much wether her power directly reached them, as basically the causality chain was broken.LordAizenSama said:
In a sense when a phase wipes the timeline properly the event that made the magic gods from human to magic god, wouldn't have happened for example (in the perfect world in which no tragedie happened, HIgh Priest would have become a buddha in peace and not a magic god). So they would be magic gods without a cause for reaching that state, for example.
Or in a sense their mother were never born etc.
The fact that such things don't affect them should count as acausality, no?
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Yeah, I think them being in the Hidden World where the concepts of space and time don't matter may be why they weren't affected, that probably counts as being outside the world being affected by Othinus, so I don't know if it counts as acausality. At least as far as I understand acausality.
DontTalk has a point in that Othinus herself has rewritten the world's timeline several times, changing things around each time. Then again, if her changes to make a perfect world were just relative to recent events to maximize the torture to Touma (which seems to be the case, and the new timeline doesn't make much sense anyway, seeing that Sherry and Ellis are kids in the perfect world but everyone else is the same) I don't know if it would count, as everything in the far past that created the magic gods would be the same.
DontTalk has a point in that Othinus herself has rewritten the world's timeline several times, changing things around each time. Then again, if her changes to make a perfect world were just relative to recent events to maximize the torture to Touma (which seems to be the case, and the new timeline doesn't make much sense anyway, seeing that Sherry and Ellis are kids in the perfect world but everyone else is the same) I don't know if it would count, as everything in the far past that created the magic gods would be the same.
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MMmm it sounds plausable, though admittedly I'm not the best person to ask
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Lazy brings up a point there on how It may just have been Othinus altering the current just to torment touma, and not literally rewriting everything.
Though I did find something else that seems interesting.
"Letting Othinus run free would have been a problem, but I left that to the strength of the
world. The world was temporarily led to destruction as a result, but I still had to prioritize
this. It wasn't easy converting coordinates filled with non-existent numbers into decimal."
Would that make Aleister Acausal? hes seemingly aware of what has taken place and, if I have this right, continued what he was doing regardless of Othinus' actions as hes saying he had to prioritise entering the hidden world over dealing with Othinus.
Though I did find something else that seems interesting.
"Letting Othinus run free would have been a problem, but I left that to the strength of the
world. The world was temporarily led to destruction as a result, but I still had to prioritize
this. It wasn't easy converting coordinates filled with non-existent numbers into decimal."
Would that make Aleister Acausal? hes seemingly aware of what has taken place and, if I have this right, continued what he was doing regardless of Othinus' actions as hes saying he had to prioritise entering the hidden world over dealing with Othinus.
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Hmm... there is one thing that would show that Othinus at least once rewrote the timeline in a more fundamental way. She can not return to her original world, even though she can rewind time.LazyHunter said:
If she hadn't changed it completly, she would be able to rewind to a state in which the world isn't changed yet and just wait until at the point of her original world anymore.
So the fact that she can even remember that there was an original world, would show that she was unaffected by rewriting that timeline.
But acausality is a strange topic. I should probably sometime make a thread about the topic again to rewrite the current page in a way that it is clear which feats justify acausality. (I mean in a certain way the fact that othinus "could turn back time, re-lay the rails of fate that led to the future, and create the exact result she wanted" would already be acausal, since she essentially avoids the cause of turning back time, but I am uncertain if that kind of time traveler acausality would be sufficient reason or not)
Maybe I should try to clear up the acausality topic in general first and see after that what that results in for this case.
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@LordAizenSama: Maybe. The magic gods and touma and othinus also remembered what happened in the time that in the end didn't happen though.
Man, this is confusing.
Man, this is confusing.
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I have to point out that Kamachi so far has expressly mentioned causality or something to that effect when one of his characters messes with it, even for minor/joke stuff like the Alfheim Princess in A Simple Survey.
But yeah, acausality is confusing, that's why I'd only put it when it's outright mentioned or demonstrated like with the White Queen or Higashikawa Mamoru.
But yeah, acausality is confusing, that's why I'd only put it when it's outright mentioned or demonstrated like with the White Queen or Higashikawa Mamoru.
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Considering what the other elements( that water element attack sounded pretty impressive) I believe it would be in one hit
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Could be in one hit. I couldn't find other feats or statements about Fire Elements except for a statement about a Fire Class 6 "turning the ground into an inferno" or something to that effect, so I wasn't 100% sure, but it'd stand to reason that the magic of smaller Elements is likely stronger than their regular attacks . Honestly, Kamachi should have not focused so much in the water Element, even if the water cutters are cool.
...And I just noticed that the second key should be Class 3, since the water octopus was Class 3. I think the only Class 2 feats were the wind spider knocking Touma out of the window and the crab oneshotting Touma and putting him in critical condition...which is reasonably impressive, given the punishment Touma usually takes before being knocked out. Though the constant heat and exertion probably also helped.
...And I just noticed that the second key should be Class 3, since the water octopus was Class 3. I think the only Class 2 feats were the wind spider knocking Touma out of the window and the crab oneshotting Touma and putting him in critical condition...which is reasonably impressive, given the punishment Touma usually takes before being knocked out. Though the constant heat and exertion probably also helped.
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Since it was a statement and not an outright feat I'd use "likely", leaving Class 1s as "Wall level physically, likely Room level with magic".
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