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Toaru Majutsu no Index General Discussion Thread 2

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So should we assume they punch someone as hard as they can they will disintergrate? If they can punch that hard theres no reason their durability shouldn't get it..

Sorry, but I find that too ridiculous to believe. No other verse would get penalised so harshly.
 
What would make you think they would disintegrate then?

Again, in fiction the damage you can dash out has nothing to do with what you can take. You could have a character with a punch that can destroy planets, be shot with a gun. Defense and attack stat are as seperate as they are in RPG. (See kusuo Saiki for a practicle example of a character where it is clearly seperate)

That Newtons third law doesn't apply like that is something I would very much believe to be the usual standard, which I very much apply to other verses, if I notice it being brought up.

If you think Striking Strength should scale to durability make a Staff thread and try to get it an established standard, I at least don't think that makes sense.
 
If I'm not wrong, a direct punch would imply that your hand is at the epicenter of the blast that destroy X thing, unless it's a punch with a magic effect or smth, in which case I don't think it's really Striking Strength.
 
As far as i'm aware with the numerous people i've spoken to and my own personal experience it is already a standard.
 
Not one I am aware off and neither one noted down somwhere. If you don't want to do a thread, I guess I will create one on the topic later...
 
OK, so regarding the canges that have to be made considering the Striking Strength Ôëñ Durability thing:

1. Should I upgrade the durability of the magic gods or lower their striking strength? Given that their striking strength basically comes from a slightly different formulation of the "destroy universes just by existing" effect, I am uncertain if it in that sense should count as striking strength then, given that it is the fighting capacity from physical strikes loaded with their magical presence basically. So while it might be their close combat strength, would it also fall under striking strength when scaling like that?

2. Kanzakis Durability, while using Yuisen would have to get upgraded, given that the spell boosts her Striking Strength.

3. Gunhas durability either has to include "likely Small Island level" or the Striking Strength has to be "possibly Class EJ"

4. Class 3 Elements durability and Striking strength has to be fit together

Anyone else?
 
If they use magic to enhance they ST, then probably it wouldn't scale to Durability, or probably scale to Durability when using magic
 
1. The Magic Gods' power comes from their reality warping and, as you said, it's not really their striking strength but the "too big for the world" part is what makes them destroy universes like that. IMO I wouldn't count it as Striking Strength.

2. I also wouldn't count this, as Yuisen is more of a boosted slicing spell and doesn't seem to increase her actual physical strength that much. Another regular Saint like Brunhild can match her physically, even though her claymore is not at the level of Yuisen and gets damaged. It might be better to leave her Striking Strength as just Class PJ.

3. Gunha is a weird case in Durability, as he gets injured by much weaker stuff but can tank and recover from very powerful stuff. I also don't think that his AP comes from raw physical strength, and his power is canonically nonsensical. I'm unsure as to what it should be done with him.

4. I agree with this.
 
LordAizenSama said:
Question. Is the Accelerator singstar spinoff thing actually some sort of canon?
Click to expand...
You mean Toaru Idol no Accelerator-sama? It is canon to itselfs, I suppose, but obviously not canon to the main series.

Regarding creating profiles for characters from it, one would probably have to consider the rules regarding alternative canon.

Why do you ask, did something impressive happen in it?
 
No nothing impressive, I just saw this scan and it had the boy whos only seen in the Railgun manga, so I got a bit curious. Also Awaki's shota is showing.
 
The Accelerator Idol spinoff seems to like using spinoff characters. Even the food obsessed member of the Board of Directors has showed up. Actually, since they appeared in the Railgun manga, I wonder if we'll get to see Scavenger. Might be hard to write a way for them to get violently stomped in such a lightearted manga, though.

I'm not surprised that the manga used the anime version, it's more visually impressive and itdoesn't need an explanation like the novel version.
 
The bonus web crossover was translated, and once again it's a crazy Kamachi plot. Protagonists and heroines from the major Kamachi novels appear in the Zashiki Warashi world and are challenged by young Shinobu to a contest about staying awake, otherwise the White Queen gets you. And the teleportation makes them feel like they've already been awake for 24 hours. Yeah, they start dropping like flies, and it's mainly because of the heroines.

Shame that the Index side was taken out so quickly, though it makes sense that the crossover focused in Beatrice since it was a bonus written for her series' 3rd volume. And even here Kamachi managed to get one of his classic fight scenes. Shame it's not canon, it would be an interesting upgrade for Blood Sign.
 
LazyHunter said:
Shame it's not canon, it would be an interesting upgrade for Blood Sign.
Click to expand...
Just out of curiosity, who would have been upgraded to what?


Also just saw a few pages accelerator manga chapter 30 spoilers. AIM burst the second?
 
Ah, not a stats upgrade. It's a technique that would give Blood Sign summoners a decent way of fighting other, more direct combact oriented, magic users without relying on their Material. Nothing major besides that, another feat of White Queen's acausality and a few additional techniques for Beatrice.

Yeah, it also reminded me of the AIM Burst. Hopefully the battle starts soon, the transformation has gone on for quite a while. In Railgun we have Mikoto vs Seike, might get a new feat for either one there.
 
Raws of the new Railgun and Accelerator chapters are out. For Railgun we have Mikoto doing something with her electricity which may give her a burst of speed. Like with the Level 6 Shift fight, I wish this was in novel format, since then Kamachi would explain what she is actually doing instead of realying just in static visuals like manga. Also, I find funny that the Scavanger seem to have a Level 5 trauma from the beatdown Accelerator gave them, Seike and Leader freak out when they realize who Mikoto is. At least the Boy with Goggles is not longer alone in that regard.

From Accelerator raws, definitely AIM Burst 2.0, with wings and halos once more. This is probably going to fall to Estelle's magic knife, unless the demon can be defeated with raw power, then Accel should have this. Though I'm beginning to wonder how much more are his "5 minutes of battery time" going to last.
 
About the burst in speed, i haven't read the railgun novels but didn't mikoto used her lightning to move really fast to prevent a guy from killing himself? She did that in the anime but i don't know if this is cannon.
 
As I mentioned above I'm not sure about him. He tanks pretty strong stuff, but his power is nonsensical and it might be a matter of endurance + regen + GUTS letting him continue fighting. I'm OK with his current rating having "likely higher" for the Level 6 Shift Mikoto and Ollerus stuff.

Anyway, we might want to look for better structure/justification for his stats, though. Aren't his best physical feats catching the low power Railgun and destroying the large ball of debris Level6Shift!Mikoto threw at Touma? Would the later be a City Block level feat? His feats against lightning should not be counted for normal AP due to Aurora Guard being a special technique against electricity attacks, and his "fight" with Mikoto mainly consisted in him tanking her electric attacks.
 
LazyHunter said:
Also, I find funny that the Scavanger seem to have a Level 5 trauma from the beatdown Accelerator gave them, Seike and Leader freak out when they realize who Mikoto is.
Click to expand...
To be honest, that isn't a trauma. If you consider that level 5's tend to be crazy and have the firepower to at least defeat a military unit alone... That reaction is called common sense.


Just read railgun chapter 89. The electricity thing to move doesn't seem quantifiable.

What did Seike do to defend from the bar here though? Did she increase friction to block it or is this more decreasing friction to let it glide of without effect? Seems like the latter.


Regarding Gunha: Might have to think about his stats and justifications. He should probably scale to what base misaka can do with iron sand manipulation.
 
@DontTalk

Seems like the latter option is correct, given that she did the same thing earlier against the Doppelganger. As for the Mikoto thing, not much to gain from it, yeah. She also seems to have used lightning to create a flash of light and blind Seike. Unrelated, but Seike seems to out himself as a trap in this chapter, which could explain why he was waiting for the others outside the girls' bathroom in chapter 87.

Gunha should probably be at least Building level or Large Building level by powerscaling from Mikoto/Mugino/inferior destructive Level 4s. Adding "likely higher" for his fight with Level 6 Shift Mikoto seems the safest route until he has more feats. We should do the same thing with Kakine, he should be at least Large Building level (or at least City Block level pushing it a little) for being very superior to Mugino. We could try to use the warship cannon level of his beetles as a lowballing for his power, given it's a casual thing one of his later creations can do.
 
Actually thinking about it level 5's should at least be City Block level. Kiyama Harumis power output should not be above that of a combat focussed (as in not misakis) level 5.

Also want to look at some more feats for them if I have time, maybe see if I can somehow make a more solid guess for misakas iron sand tsunami, that I think gunha (since he breaches level 6 shift misakas iron sand defenses) and kakine (due to generally being more powerful) should possibly scale to.
 
City Block level? I could see Mugino pulling off a similar feat, she has casually vaporized a human arm before. Jihanki no Fanfare does note that if Gunha started fighting back Mikoto, the park could be entirelly destroyed.

One side was attacking, and one side was defending. It was just a one-sided battle.

But even so, there was already such a large flow of power. If Sogiita Gunha used his real ability to fight back, no matter who won, maybe there would be a need to be ready in case the entire park disappeared.

No big feats there though since they never fight each other seriously. The last clash levels all trees in the parks and blows out Nayuta and at least a bench.
 
Mugino even vaporized a bit more than an arm.

Maybe I calc that properly sometime, but per thumb approximation would make it City Block level as well.

So should we give gunha and mugino "at least City block level" stats based on scaling from Kiyama Harumi?

And what should wo do in regards to gunhas normal durability? At least Building level from Misakas railgun?


Regarding Kakine: Either we give him the same treatment or we scale him to accelerators normal attack potency in base, given that the two could exchange blows as long as accelerator couldn't manipulate dark matter directly.
 
"At least City Block level" for Mugino and Gunha seems fine. We can put Gunha's durability at the same level of his AP, the railgun was probably not Building level but he should be capable of at least tanking his own attacks, leaving his better durability feats as "likely higher".

Kakine could be put as likely/probably City level for apparently stomping Mugino and matching base Accel. Though his Durability in his new body might be better as Unknown, as he doesn't seem to go for a durable body and instead trusts his Regenerationn.

Shouldn't we upgrade Qiong Qi too, as it also has Level 5 powers and fought a weakened Accel?

Since we are upgrading a few characters, we should put this in a content revision thread.
 
LazyHunter said:
We can put Gunha's durability at the same level of his AP, the railgun was probably not Building level but he should be capable of at least tanking his own attacks, leaving his better durability feats as "likely higher".
Click to expand...
I don't quite get the reasoning behind the AP=dura bit here.

For Kakines durability in the new body I think we can just write something along the line of at least as high as his old one if he wants to, but he doesn't necessarily wants to. Just to give a bit more information on his dura.

Regarding the Qiong Qi, I think we can scale it to City Block level. I am more sceptical towards scaling it to accelerators base AP in particular though if that is what you are suggesting.


We could do a thread on that either now or together with any changes from NT 17.
 
I was thinking of the earlier discussion about Gunha's Durability, where we talked about possibly upgrading him to Island level for the fight with Level 6 Shift Mikoto. Island level seems a bit too much, but given that he did tank a few attacks I don't see any reason not to scale his Durability to his AP like we discussed.

A note about Kakine's new body in his Durability would work too.

I meant scaling it to City Block level, since it kind of proved his claims when it countered Accelerator's wind and didn't immediately explode when trying to fighting him directly.

We could probably do the thread now. I'm avoiding spoilers until translation starts like with the past few novels, but from the summary it looks like mainly it'll be new stuff for other girls of the Kamisato faction like Fran or the pirate girl. The only old character I can definitely see joining the battle would be Mikoto, since she's probably looking for Touma after he dissapeared in the previous volume and Kamachi will likely continue her character arc.
 
Was just on writing the thread when I noticed two other things that might need to be adressed as well:

For one thing any idea what stat or reasoning we should give level 6 shift misakas durability? Town level was there without justification since ages, but might need to be changed.

I would think "at least [Gunhas AP] with her iron sand shields" would work if we find nothing else.


Second thing is regarding Gunhas speed. I would see were Supersonic comes from (twice the speed of sound stuff), but I am not sure about the reasoning for the "Supersonic+ to Hypersonic+" he has. (Well, Supersonic+ would possibly make sense for catching Mach 3 railgun)
 
At least City Block level with iron sand shields and Unknown for her actual Durability seems correct. I don't even know where Town level comes from.

As for Gunha's speed, Supersonic makes sense for the statement and him catching Mikoto's Railgun, but the Hypersonic+ should definitely be removed. The "can keep up with Mikoto" should also probably go, it's not really a notable speed feat. I'm not sure about Supersonic+, the Railgun was only at 30% power so it likely wasn't moving at Mach 3, since railguns derive their power from their speed.

Also, rereading his "fight" with Mikoto in Fanfare, she also used several iron sand attacks on him (iron swords and hundreds of iron sand drills). While they are just mentioned as some of the attacks she used and it's not shown how Gunha deals with them (unlike the lightning and Aurora Guard), it seems like it could support him having City Block level Durability. Though a subjective observation, there's also Mikoto saying that he feels a lot sturdier than a tank.
 
Since Haimura posted the designs for NT16, should we replace the current Element image with the color design? Or just add the design as a gallery?
 
Done. It's a shame the only Railgun manga designs we got were for Kuriba and the Doppelganger, we could use the Scavenger's.
 
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