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Toaru Majutsu no Index Discussion Thread 4

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I have to see if I find out spoilers for the Toaru x Virtual On game, I think it was a continuation of the crossover novel and I'm interested in what role Othinus plays on it, since she's obviously not one of the playable characters.
 
Short summery for vol20 preview:

Crowley uses magic to eliminate the Lola below her boot and swears she will take back her other daughter >AC is dead and everyone has to leave >Tsuchimikado guides Crowley to a safe spot in Egypt but doesn't stick around with the group >Crowley is traveling with Index, Othinus, Accel, Shiage, Takitsubo, Fran, and Touma >They travel from Egypt to France and try to cross the channel into England >England has a ton of magic defenses set up >Crowley sends in tens of thousands (or more) Crowleys to clear the way >The channel literally runs red with Crowley blood.

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Corozon: Old Fool, your Magic is the most useless of all!

Aleister: Oh my god!

Touma:The only reason you lost, was because you pissed me off.

IB:ORAORAORAORAORAORAORA!!
 
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Ok, guys. The translation of the latest volume is finished, so spoiler grace period is starting.

Say once you are finished reading, unless you don't mind spoilers. Until then no spoilery debates, if possible.


I have finished reading the volume.
 
Got a little distracted with another LN series I'm currently reading (thankfully a finished one), but I've also finished reading the volume.
 
If I recognize the scenes correctly they are planning to cover WWIII arc, huh.


That aside, finally weekend, good time for the NT 20 edits. Here is my list of edits to be debated:

Aleister Crowley

"I shall teach you the true nature of the blood sacrifice used to kill every last member of the Golden cabal. Or if you like, you could call it my Blood Sign."
God damn it Aleister wrong series!
-Blood Sacrifice: Aside from the technique itself this requires changes to his physical stats, scaling him to saints. Question is how we want to list it. Either we note something like ",up to at least" behind his current stats or make a "with blood sacrifice" key. I think the latter is better.

-Neutralization of western magic: In principle clear. The question is if we can somehow classify what would be western magic in other fictions.

-Sealing

-Crowley Hazards: The description should be changed a bit, most importantly mentioning how there is a main Aleister that has limited control over the rest. (Should we add a list of all known ones?)

-Weapons are to be added to spiritual tripping (scythe and golden staff)

Coronzo
"This seems far better than something as dangerous as pure good, if you ask me. Currently, there is no way to kill Great Demon Coronzon who is possessing my second daughter. Not even with Imagine Breaker. This is due to the way she has sewn herself to all 53 nations and regions in the British Commonwealth. I am taking measures in the other regions, so we will directly attack England itself."

Aleisters actions of attacking the commonwealth for this reason give it the proper credibility. The question what to do regarding this remains.

New profiles

  • Qliphah Puzzle 545: Do we have anything to give her in terms of stats?
  • Ises-Demeter / Orsola Aquinas: Her power varies, but given her fight against Crowley, I think we can give her up to saint stats, in my opinion. Though one could debate how much of that is saint stats for her and how much for her plants.
 
The Crowley hazard is too varied to give it a list just add that not all aleister possibilities are magician and can be others things (form a dinosaur to an android to an alien octopus to angels)

for the blood sacrifice I would wait as it was very vague in the explanation

I think the neutralization of eastern magic only works in universe cause he wrote the code, so he can toy with it, but inversely he should know and be able to cast 80% of the spell seen on the series so far

cronozon should be similar to aiwass with no real way to really kill them, and he probably has some other pseudo avatar

For 545 she btfo unpowered KL so around saint lvl ?

for isis-demeter some problem rises as even othinus stated that if it was used during her arc thing would have gonne down differently and it seems that it controls most plants on the planet right ?
 
Malox1696 said:
The Crowley hazard is too varied to give it a list just add that not all aleister possibilities are magician and can be others things (form a dinosaur to an android to an alien octopus to angels)
Click to expand...
I mean here is a list....

for the blood sacrifice I would wait as it was very vague in the explanation

I don't think it was that vague? It optimizes and defrags him when the Crowley Hazards die and by that increases his stats. Hence he was human level against Touma, when none of them were killed, and saint level in London when he on purpose had a ton of them killed in the war against the commonwealth and GB.

I think the neutralization of eastern magic only works in universe cause he wrote the code, so he can toy with it, but inversely he should know and be able to cast 80% of the spell seen on the series so far

He devised the basics of western magic, I doubt that enables him to know or cast most spells in the series, which add specific knowledge to these basics. Per verse equalization the negation of western magic should also work against other verses provided we can argue that it would qualify as western magic in to aru. Hence the question on whether there is a clear classification on what would be western magic and what not.

For 545 she btfo unpowered KL so around saint lvl ?

Don't think so. She manipulated him with her abilities, but I don't think she harmed him with brute strength.

for isis-demeter some problem rises as even othinus stated that if it was used during her arc thing would have gonne down differently and it seems that it controls most plants on the planet right ?

Saying that using all the divine mixtures might have changed the outcome of the arcs doesn't tells us enough to rank based on that. It isn't like changing the outcome would mean that they alone defeat everyone involved either.

In regards to the "controls all greenery on the planet" statement: I believe this is meant as "has influence over any kind of plant on the planet" less than "can attack with every plant on the planet at once"

At least that would match her feats better.
 
1. Blood Sign: Clearly scales Aleister's durability and speed to saint level given how he was fighting Kanzaki and Knight Leader. Aiwass appearing as a Material in Blood Sign whe

2. Nullification of western magic should IMO clearly apply only to Toaruverse magic, as that's the only one that has followed and adapted Toaru's Crowleys teachings to most modern magic. This should be mentioned in Aleister's page with a note about it so people don't take it out of context

3. Sealing is simple, though again, there should be a mention about how this sealing spell requires the use of Academy City,

4. Crowley's Hazards: Agree on rewriting it so that there being a main one apparently much stronger than the others and how not all of them are master magicians is made clear. The list is kind of extra, but I personally have nothing against it. We do have something similar with Freyja's monster list.


5. New spiritual tripping weapons are a simple addition.


545 hasn't really shown anything deserving a page, IMO. She might just end as an addition to Accelerator's page in the future, though.


Unsure how to deal with Isis-Demeter Orsola, given how the twist behind her power makes it really hard to judge and a perfect anti-Crowley weapon. We can give her plants the feats for the enviromental destruction and mention that against people it can reach saint level or 7-A, I guess. Not sure about speed, though, given she wasn't moving around fast. The "control plants across the planet" seems to be a range thing.
 
LazyHunter said:
2. Nullification of western magic should IMO clearly apply only to Toaruverse magic, as that's the only one that has followed and adapted Toaru's Crowleys teachings to most modern magic. This should be mentioned in Aleister's page with a note about it so people don't take it out of context
Click to expand...
Isn't that like saying that spell intercept is useless against all verse external magic, due to such magic not working after rules that index would know? I think verse equalization should affect such things to a certain extent.

Either way, since I fully agree on writing down why the ability works I would just explain that and see how its taken.

3. Sealing is simple, though again, there should be a mention about how this sealing spell requires the use of Academy City,

A seal that used an entire city and measured dozens of kilometers across might sound nice, but the city had not been designed for use against Coronzon. She had only connected the spider web of roads in a meaningful way. It was a makeshift method that took inspiration from the giant circle Karasuma Fran had used in her attempt to summon Kamisato Kakeru.
Pretty sure this isn't AC specific. Aleister just needs some network of roads (or probably other things) in which he can interpret a part as forming the banner of the west.


What is your opinion on the coronzon bit?
 
There is a difference between Spell Intercept being able to mess up spell chants, autonomous guardians, and magic weapons in general via analysis and Aleister having a blank "Western based magic doesn't work on me (unless you are a super good magician like me) because I know all the exploits and backdoors due to designing large parts of this specific branch of the magic system of the Toaru verse".

Verse equalization doesn't mean we can ignore the actual mechanics of the ability to that extent IMO. If it wouldn't work against sufficiently distinct magic from its own verse, why would it work on magic that doesn't even share basic mechanics with, just a thematic of "Western"? Why would the western magic of other verses have the same backdoors and exploits like the one mostly designed by Aleister does?

Not much to say about Coronzon, it's pretty vague so far. Immortality Type 8?
 
Guess I will write it down as possibly/likely type 8 for now.


To the western magic: Consider that Aleister Crowley isn't a unique figure to to aru. Real life Aleister has remained a highly influential figure over Western esotericism as well.

That means if a series draws ideas for its magic from real life modern western magic practices, it will in most cases include things that stand in relation to practices of the real live aleister.

Given that A Certain Aleister has basically made all of the same practices, its is reasonable that his backdoors would also be in the real life versions and by that it also makes sense to assume that they also are in the fictional analogies that other verses picked from the real life aleisters heritage.


If another verse were to use the Thoth Tarot it would seem strange to say that crowley can't negate that magic, despite the fact that it without doubt would fall in his jurisdiction in his own verse.


Edit: Another thing. I wonder whether it wouldn't make more sense to rename the Lola Stuart page to Coronzon. On one hand because the entire page basically describes what Coronzon can do and because for example Coronzon is non-corporeal, I believe, but listing that on Lola's page seems strange. (Similar thing for the possession ability for which Coronzon probably has to change the host.)
 
I'm not sure. I personally don't think it'd apply unless the other verse can be proven to have Aleister Crowley in the same influencing position and a similar type of magic system to Toaru. It's probably better to bring this up in a CRT. Even if this is added we should be careful with how we word things. It's already enough that the bs about Accelerator's matter manipulation keeps getting repeated in so many of his matches despite all the explanations given.

Can't Coronzon use multiple hosts at the same time? Like, when it tried to posses Aleister's body it didn't leave Lola's, and Lola and Fran were active at the same time without any issues. The page lists things for Lola as an avatar because Coronzon hasn't appeared without an avatar like Aiwass so far. If it does it'd probably get its own page.
 
I don't quite remember the possession details to be honest, so I will just assume you're right until I look it up.

That it is the page for Lola just appears in so far a strange choice as that the being they fight in the novel is just Coronzon. What I mean is that they wouldn't win if they kill or free Lola and Coronzon just continues with a new host (not that killing her is the plan), while in a thread it would presumably be the case.

The type 8 for example is probably also more for Coronzon than its host.


I will make a CRT about the Negation thing then. On that occassion I will also include the stat revision, I guess, in order to follow proper protocols.
 
Yeah, the immortality type 8 would probably apply to Coronzon itself, not to its Lola avatar. Hopefully Kamachi gives more details about it.
 
I have done edits to Crowley. Everyone fine with it like that?

I won't ask for it to be relocked for now, 'cause there probably are at least some minor fixes to be done.
 
I don't see how you divided his keys AP and tier wise, you put two keys but didn't bother to fix his tiring
 
Mountain level is 7-A and Tier is 7-A normally. Do I need to devide it somehow?


regarding AP: Pretty sure it is nothing unusual to have only one AP section to say "same thing for both keys", which would apply here.
 
Perhaps it's just me but the profile is kinda of a mess it would be better if you divided it if you have time, I have hard time following Alister's profile info and I read the series from time to time unlike others who never touched Index
 
Simply copying everything form the first key to the second would make everything pretty long, though.

I guess I could just write "same as before", though that doesn't look good either

Edit: Does this help you? Personally I think this is ugly and unecessary, but if you really want.
 
You added the Key info to his Speed and Durability but didn't do the same for his AP and Tier, I kinda make it confusing IMO

How about we treat his Blood Sacrifice Key as it own thing? we are just mixing things up right now
 
ZERO7772 said:
You added the Key info to his Speed and Durabilty but didn't do the same for his AP and Tier, I kinda make it confusing IMO
How about we treat his Blood Sacrifice Key as it own thing? we are just mixing things up right now
Click to expand...
It is treated as its own thing..?

As said, if you don't create two sections for a stats it is usually taken as applying for both keys.

E.g. if you look at Meliodas page and see that intelligence, range and stamina has only one stat you know it is meant for all forms. This is basically the same principle.
 
Intelligence, range, and stamina are treated as secondary info and most people leave them be unless it has shown major different for such status when making another Key. Meanwhile, AP, Speed, and durability are critical info for any profile, even if it basically the same status you MUST add another section to the profile for every category.

See these profiles for example https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Haju and https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Natsu_Dragneel
 
Aside from alsoe having different explanations, these profiles have a lot of keys which makes this necessary (If you have 2 sections with 3 keys you don't know what belongs to which section other than if you have 1 section for all keys)

I would give good examples but profiles with just 2 keys where one statistic neither changes in stats nor reasoning are hard to find spontanously. But for example this, this, this , this, this, this, this, this etc.

You get the point, it is a common and accepted practice to do it that way.
 
Literally, none of the profiles you linked ignore the "Tier" part of the profiles and again I am not saying what you are doing is wrong I am just saying we can show off Alister's profile in "better" way

I would edit his profile myself but my grammar isn't the best and you know the series much better than I do so...
 
This is just a random thought but, The True magic gods are High 1-C scaling from Othinu, true Magic Gods are described as far beyond Othinus I think they deserve to add "At least" to them.

I mean this is Wiki for characters wank yet we keep low-balling everyone and everything in this verse ┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬»
 
@Zero I agree

Anyone know where Meltdowners durbaility bypass went via particle/waveform cannon? X I coulda sworn it was listeded when I checked months ago and I cant find a relevant CRT thread under her name.
 
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