Toaru Majutsu no Index Discussion Thread 4

[Malox1696]

I think IB needs to protect the user before the change in the phase is done so before someone cast the magic that create the spark, cause the spark already changed the normal course of the event and can't turn it back (think of it like a file, if u have IB the file is protected and u can't change it but applying the IB protection after the file was changed by the spark do nothing) ex: to late for Allen to save himself with the use of IB after he saw his future

 

[LazyHunter]

I mean, as I've said before we don't really know the exact mechanics, only that the Golden Dawn was using it to protect its magicians while they used magic in their base. Could be anything, really.

 

[Malox1696]

Yea but if could be applied after the changes it would not be a problem to save Allen and Lilith, and u wouldn't need only a limited people to be protected, cause u can, let's say once a week, remove all the spark affecting your self and give it to another member of the cabal to use it on himself, instead if it needs to be used before the spark make changes u would always need to have it for yourself cause if u are unlucky the moment u remove it the spark might spell ur doom

 

[LazyHunter]

Allan was dying of drug use, it had nothing to do with sparks. When he said "…In other words, it is the same as my body" he was making a comparison between him being a slave to drugs due to his addiction to people being "slaves" to fortune and miracles.

As for Lilith, I already said that we don't know the requirements to use IB as a protection against sparks. If, for example, the person needs to be close to it, Lilith would be out of luck, as she wasn't born until after Aleister had already destroyed the IB Golden Dawn had.

 

[Malox1696]

"There was a way of exorcising it," said Allan Bennett. "Although Westcott and Mathers never publicly admitted it, there was an unspoken understanding that it was not a problem as long as they had the treasure at Blythe Road and that they would be fine as long as they possessed it. Edward, you too were protected by that. That is why they saw no problem with what you were doing."

But that would only protect him, the magician.

They said they could not pass their protection onto those who were not there, and they did not bother to reveal the protective charm already hidden in their pocket.

IB effect against the spark is always viewed as an umbrella or as protective charm which works as prevention (the umbrella doesn't dry u off after u get wet, the protective charm doesn't let evil spirit near you but doesn't kill them or remove them)

 

[LazyHunter]

Does anyone know where the "Accelerator is superior to 100 supercomputers" comes from? Or a quote for the Level 5 > Supercomputer thing? I'm trying to find them and most of the references to supercomputers in the series are talking about the Tree Diagram, which is obviously beyond regular supercomputers and the Misaka Network being used as a supercomputer's replacement in Railgun S' filler.

 

[Zensum]

@LH Cant find the one you were looking for but there was this quote

"Accelerator stared at the papers in Yoshikawa's hand, and then to the thick stack of papers that were being printed out from the source. A large number of papers were scattered all over the floor.
The experiment was currently on hold. The experiment had been initially planned through the Tree Diagram simulations, however, it had been discovered that the simulations were wrong.
However, the experiment was merely paused and not ceased. They could restart the experiment once they found the error in the simulations and corrected it.
However, Accelerator didn't think that they would find that error. The Tree Diagram's method of simulation wasn't especially complicated, but the calculations were really too big. The '1 X 10 = 10' function that humans used would be calculated as '1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 10' by the machine. To the machine, that may be easier, but to the one who calculated wrongly, it was a nightmare. It was likely that they would need several decades just to look through those vast numbers.
"Such a hardworking person. Is it really interesting to read all these?"
"Not at all. If possible, I really want to ask for your help. Your calculations and analytical ability are rather reliable."
"It shouldn't be good if I know of the contents of the plan, right?"
The main aim of the experiment was to have twenty thousand battles, and let Accelerator go through the plan and eliminate the twenty thousand enemies. The skills of an esper could increase through battle, and the final aim of the experiment was to use a controlled growth and let Accelerator level up from a Level 5 to a Level 6.
In that situation, if Accelerator knew too much, maybe the battles wouldn't go on according to the plan. Thus, Accelerator had been warned not to touch the data of the experiment if it wasn't necessary. "

It seems to show he's semi comparable to tree diagram. I think the supercomputer > was probably conjecture/assumption based on being superior to misaka whose comapred to a computer or his calculation speed being fast enough to reflect light. Even hundreds of supercomputers couldn't calculate fast enough for this feat.

 

[Trulybehind]

Yeah, as i remember there is no clear statement for that. But in fact by accel can calculate and make new algorithm for 25.000 dark matter kakine that unknown to index universe and have their laws that twist physic in split second i think accel calculation ability already exceed supercomputers

 

[DexWald]

Volume 22 Chapter 10 Part 3

Fiamma heard a damp noise and the next thing he knew, a right arm had already extended from Kamijou Touma's shoulder. He had eaten away such a massive power and then grown a new part of his body.
(He…threw it away…?)
Fiamma tried to mutter those words, but he realized afterwards that he had not said them out loud. His throat dried and a feeling like something was clinging there remained.
(He gave up all that power to get Imagine Breaker back…?)
He looked up to the boy's right arm that he had taken for himself. Even then, Fiamma had the Imagine Breaker arm inside his body after having disassembled it. However, he could tell the shining power was gradually fading from the flesh and blood he had acquired. It was such a unique power that two of it could not exist within the same world. The scene made Fiamma think that such a rule must exist. And that rule might also have been that the true power could only reside within the right arm if it was attached to the boy known as Kamijou Touma.
He could not allow himself to lose it. He did not miss the power of Imagine Breaker in and of itself. In fact, he had been
planning to eventually eliminate the functionality of the arm he had taken into this body. It did nothing but interfere with the power within Fiamma's body. However, if the right arm itself continued to rapidly deteriorate, it may continue on to the point of losing its ability to receive Fiamma's power. That would be a problem for his goal.

Volume 7 Chapter 7 Part 11

Rensa had a slight thought. An ever so slight thought. Kamijou Touma would die here. He would die before she could try out his rare power even once. Kuroyoru Umidori was interfering before she would even have the chance. The desire to try out that exceedingly rare power rose back up within her. While Kamijou dangled down from her hand, Rensa held her other hand out toward Kuroyoru. The giant "flower" opened from Rensa's back and the countless "knitting needles" shot out, pulling the many "threads" within her as they did. This action could easily have killed any human with a proper sense of pain, but Rensa's body only swiftly altered its characteristics.

She was creating the characteristics needed to call in Kamijou Touma's power.

She met all of the necessary conditions.

And…

Imagine Breaker flowed in.

She could feel something passing through the arm she held out toward Kuroyoru. She could feel it gathering beyond her wrist.This was the power to negate other powers. It was the perfect defensive power. But…The arm Rensa held out toward Kuroyoru suddenly swelled up like a balloon.

"Ah?"

She grew confused. It resembled a lithium battery used in cell phones or laptops when it was destroyed due to over-charging. Tremendous static ran up her arm and spread across her body. Her very thoughts were thrown into disarray.

(Dh…gh…What!? High level problem detec-… I-I-Imagine Breaker should be nothing more than the power to negate other powers. Why is it causing such great destruction…just from being drawn into me!?)

Her mind raced around in search of an answer. Then she finally realized this was no time to be leisurely seeking an answer.

(E-e-emergency release…of body wiring…!! Dz…Command not…received… Fatal…problem…detected… Th-this is…!!)

She tried to open the giant "flower" from her back, but it only opened halfway and convulsed violently. Swapping out the wiring based on precise values would be impossible. An unpleasant noise burst from deep inside her head. Rensa lost all sense of up and down and she collapsed to the side like a piece of wood.

Volume 14 Prologue

"Pant, pant…!!"

In the middle of the Academy City night, a boy covered in sweat sat with his back against a building's concrete building.

It was Kamijou Touma. He gasped for breath and held his dangling right arm with his left hand. Blood was splattered all over the road. It had only been his own blood at first and it should have remained that way. He had clashed with Kamisato. His arm had been torn away by World Rejecter and sent "somewhere else". The explosion of intense pain and the almost comical geyser of red blood were still burnt into the back of his mind.

But…

Even so…

"What…was that?"

Unable to even stand up, he gulped. Even now, his right arm was attached like normal. He had no noticeable injuries. He remained so perfectly healthy that one would assume the red stains covering his clothes came from someone else. Also, Kamisato Kakeru, the boy he had confronted here, was gone.

"What in the world was that?"

His heart pounded in his ears. He could not think properly. Two types of blood were splattered everywhere. One was from the severed arm and the other was from Kamisato Kakeru who should have had an absolute advantage. Kamijou could not believe what he had seen with his own eyes. The confusion inside him would not settle down as he continued staring fearfully toward his right arm that pulsated from within like a pump.

He had run across unexplainable phenomena a few times in the past.

There was something about his right arm.


Should Touma has enlisted in Power/Abilities: Resistance to Power Mimicry/Power Absorption?

 

[LazyHunter]

@Zensum

Thanks, though that quote doesn't really compare Accelerator to the Tree Diagram. IMO it should probably be changed to exceeding a supercomputer, because I don't think the gap between the calculations of him and other Level 5s is that big, especially without a supporting quote.

@DexWald

I'm unsure if it would be considered resistance because the power mimicry/absorption does happen, it's just that it's either harmful for an opponent to try (Mimicry) or doesn't stick because IB immediately goes back to Touma's right arm if available (Absorption).

 

[SchroKatze]

Unconventional Resistance.

Its like Magical Girls resistance to power absorption: It happens, but the power just leave the one who absorbed, hurts them or even control them.

 

[Trulybehind]

@lazy Yeah i agreed too, but for some reason i think accel and kakine should be superior than other level 5. In vol 15 kakine reoptimized twitzer from bigger one to smaller, and he can calculated dark matter that can bypass accel reflection. And for accel he can control a fight between him and kakine while protecting surounding and himself while calculated all dark matter that kakine emitted. And for several occasion the narrator said that accel have the strongest brain power in AC like in vol 3 when he created plasma

 

[LazyHunter]

Of course, Accelerator and Kakine are above the other Level 5s in brain power. That doesn't mean the "100 supercomputers" claim is valid when there's no actual quote to support it. "Superior" doesn't immediately mean "has several dozens of times the calculation power".

 

[Malox1696]

Although it's not a quote, it must be stated that accelerator controlled the atmosphere before brain damage, so he calculated each current of wind similarly to the tree diagram that calculated meteo right 100% of the time, or that he rewrote the personality and brain of last order in what 1 min ? i would put him on tree diagram lvl but still below mina

edit found this :

"But it was still incomplete. Unlike his automatic reflection, he had to think about the original vector and the altered vector when he was altering vectors under his own will.
Wind, the flow of the atmosphere, required complex calculations that involved chaos theory, so it could not be completely predicted without the use of Tree Diagram.
He doubted that the flow of the entire world's atmosphere could be calculated in a single human's head.
He had only managed to manipulate the wind within Academy City and that had still been imperfect.
However, it had still produced that much destruction. He no longer needed Level 6. If he could calculate the flow of the wind more perfectly and more accurately, he already held the power to destroy the world in his hands. "

 

[LazyHunter]

Accelerator imperfectly controlled the wind in Academy City. Tree Diagram accurately calculates one month of weather by analyzing the planet's atmosphere down to the air particles. The fact that Accelerator himself considers it unlikely for a human to be able to replicate this feat means he doesn't consider himself to be on Tree Diagram's level.

 

[Malox1696]

Accelerator imperfectly controlled the wind in Academy City. Tree Diagram accurately calculates one month of weather by analyzing the planet's atmosphere down to the air particles. The fact that Accelerator himself considers it unlikely for a human to be able to replicate this feat means he doesn't consider himself to be on Tree Diagram's level.

Accelerator controlled (controlled>only reading) only the wind in the city, but he calculated all the atmosphere, he doubted he could do it before but then " If he could calculate the flow of the wind more perfectly and more accurately, he already held the power to destroy the world in his hands." it's implied he could do it if he perfected his calculation a bit more and unlike the tree diagram he has way more versatility in calculations method and storing (the example above 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1=10 is the same as 1x10=10) I would say his calculation power is way beyond "conventional" supercomputer but still below dedicated super processing device like Mina (so he can't tell the future but can tell u where the first rain drop is gonna fall in the city)so still supergenius(even umidori could create a makeshift cyborg hand with household items)

 

[Trulybehind]

Different between accel calculation and tree diagram is tree diagram like a computer with parallel core so tree diagram have more core to calculate more data. Different with accel that only have single core. That why accel calculation power is inferior to tree diagram

 

[Malox1696]

More core =/= better calculations, right now with misaka network he has 10000 cores but still less calculations power

 

[LazyHunter]

When has he calculated the entire atmosphere? Because this: "If he could calculate the flow of the wind more perfectly and more accurately, he already held the power to destroy the world in his hands" is not evidence of anything nor does it imply he's at the same level that Tree Diagram, something even Accelerator himself disagrees with a couple of lines earlier.

Suffice to say, I heavily disagree with Accelerator's new Intelligence ranking, IMO Level 5s are at most "Extraordinary Genius". I am aware that like with Kakine's "Awakening" and regen, I'm in the minority so I won't bother trying to get them changed. But Accelerator hasn't shown that level of atmospheric calculations, and what Kuroyoru did isn't that impressive as you try to make it look like, given it was not an actual cyborg arm, just a model resembling one, which was the only thing needed for her little magic experiment.

 

[Trulybehind]

What i mean is the more core, more data can inputed. Imagine thousand data calculated by single core, and by 20 core. The best feat for accel calculation is in vol 3 when sister interupt the turbine to disturb the flow of wind and accel re calculated data in instan And in vol 21 when he try to interpret magic to heal LO. In that moment accel says that all code or password from da vinci to modern code is the same. The problem is how much time to decode those code.

"Whether you're talking about high-level security encryption on computers or encrypted plans from da Vinci's time, it all comes down to math. The number of digits is a bit different, but the root of it all remains the same. The code put on cell phones for privacy can be broken by repeating the same simple calculation over and over again. People only think of it as safe because the numbers are so huge that it would take too long to do it that way. The actual method of encoding isn't all that complex."

"So?"

"So I dealt with it using math. I broke apart all the information into 1s and 0s and then put it together like a puzzle in my head. Under normal thinking, I should have been able to solve it that way. At the very least, I should have at least gotten a clue to how it's encoded. …Let's just ignore that the numbers are so large that it would take hundreds of years."´┐¢

 

[Trulybehind]

Ah sorry from vol 22

 

[Malox1696]

"That meant that, if he could grasp the vector of the wind flowing through the atmosphere, he could bring the motion of the giant wind flowing throughout the entire world into his hands!"

Doubted is past tense and in the next sentence it's written that if perfected his calculations he could control the "world" Btw check the intelligence ranking definitions, accel quite clearly surpasses normal supercomputer

Btw our supercomputer can't even predict the weather cause u still need the whole atmosphere currents even to predict one city,so accelerator needs to know the major forces to only read and predict the ones in the city, now imagine changing (which is way more difficult than reading) the wind in the city too while someone makes specific artificial currents at interval to disrupt your calculations

 

[Malox1696]

Was rereading vol NT 7 and during the fight with Kakine and found this:

"He grabbed at the electrical signals running through the Dark Matter and reversed them.
A loud snapping sound rang out.
A large hole in the unnaturally perfect shape of a hexagon appeared in the puddle. The damage had been intentionally cut off before it reached the entire system of Kakine Teitoku.
"It's no use. Information is exchanged between the different blocks, but there is no direct connection. The blocks can freely communicate without any direct wiring, so your attacks cannot reach me. I suppose it is similar to an electronic wiretapping system that intentionally crosses the wires via alien crosstalk. An attack across those lines cannot reach me because the lines are not actually connected"

Does this mean that accel can negate Regenerationn up to high for bio-eletricall based life form ?

 

[LazyHunter]

I don't think so. Accelerator was trying to attack the entire Dark Matter mass all at once and failed because Kakine can cut off attacks like that from reaching beyond the "piece" attacked. I don't see how that implies negation of Regenerationn.

 

[Malox1696]

he can shutdown the Regenerationn process if they can't shutdown the impulse from part to part (by shutting down the signal that start the Regenerationn process or simply making the signal go bakcwards), would work on mutant and "conventional" Regenerationn but not trough other means (ex magic like Ladylee Tangleroad). it's less about negation of Regenerationn and more about destroying the process by reversing the electric signal or purging the source (by interfering with the consciousness/signal inside dark mater he constricted kakine to cut off the part or be purges out of teh dark mater system)

 

[LazyHunter]

I disagree, Accelerator was merely trying to use a possible connection between Kakine's Dark Matter to damage the entire network. It didn't work and it only physically damaged the part he could touch. There's nothing else to it, much less implications of negating/blocking Regenerationn, something which would have been a lot more useful when facing Kakine's copies and would have given Accelerator a choice beyond "crush them real hard and leave the area while they recover".

 

[Malox1696]

but that part did not regenarate right ?

. The damage had been intentionally cut off before it reached the entire system of Kakine Teitoku.

seems clear that kakine did something here

he clearly destroyed that part of the network problem is that beeing all disconected from each other the damage was contained to that one unit

at least is seems clear that if the network was connected the damage would have killed him

 

[LazyHunter]

We don't know if it regenerated because it's not mentioned if it did. It also was simply making a hole in a puddle, so it could have been just dispersing the liquid Dark Matter only for it to reform later as if it were water.

I don't see the reasoning for this, so I can't support it, sorry. You can bring it up in a CRT though, others might agree with your interpretation

 

[Malox1696]

When someone will do it i will bring it up, sorry if i can't explain well, eng is not my first language

btw if u want i can try to make an example

 

[Malox1696]

accel vector control should work on Coulomb law right ?

 

[DontTalkDT]

If with "work on Coulomb law" you mean that he can redirect electrical fields, then yes.

 

[Malox1696]

If with "work on Coulomb law" you mean that he can redirect electrical fields, then yes.

no i mean when we touch the coulomb force blocks us from really touching creating an opposing force cause of the N-, P+ charges he redirects that force too right ?

 

[DontTalkDT]

1) You have a strange definition of really touching

2) In other words electical fields (or the force assosiated with them, I suppose). Of course Accelerator isn't per default redirecting them on the normal touching level, but if he reflects the impact of his own punch so that he does not hurt his hand (and by that hits his opponent twice as hard), he is essentially doing nothing but that.

 

[Malox1696]

But could he reflect the coulomb force that an object apply to another when they touch ? If so he could penetrate any matter as it just keeps reflecting the opposing force

 

[DontTalkDT]

Less than penetrating the object would just fly off from the force directed at it.

And in practice that comes down to nothing but "if he can manipulated force on the level of penetrating the object, then he can do that". There is no practical difference between using the force of the object pushing back at his hand for that and using just any other force.

What matters would just be producing force on the level necessary for breaking the object. It doesn't circumvent durability or anything.

 

[Malox1696]

Yes but you use the object own durability to destroy it as the more the object apply a force to resist the change the more the force will be applied to said object until it breaks or move, effectivly negating the durability of the object ex

<----| |----> after beging rediected it would just be <----| |<---- wich is <-------|


F2=F1 in module only the direction changes so what would happen is as F gains more force F2 needs to be equal to F1 this goes repeating until said object reaches his molecular bond critical point and bearks or the other forces applied to the object are <F and the object moves

 

[DontTalkDT]

The force pushing against his fist when touching is a different force from the binding forces that cause structural integrity of the target, albeit from the same source.

Dissolving the material by inverting the binding forces of the material should in theory be possible, but was never practically demonstrated and would require major calculation force (though not necessarily beyond accels capacity)

F2=F1 in module only the direction changes so what would happen is as F gains more force F2 needs to be equal to F1 this goes repeating until said object reaches his molecular bond critical point and bearks or the other forces applied to the object are <F and the object moves

If you read really carefully what you just wrote you will notice that the progress only works if accel actually manipulates force on the same level as the one holding the particles together. Or very close to that. Accel would in this scenario have to control all the <--- force through his ability, except the small part that was the force of his fist. Meaning that for the <--- force to overcome the binding force holding the particles together he would require to manipulate force of the magnitude of the durability. He can gain that force by pushing against an object and always reflecting the force of the object pushing back at him, but that is just one way and in the end result not really different from just redirecting this force from the earths rotation or anything.

All in all: Amount of force he has to manipulate to overcome durability = durability => No durability negation.

 

[Malox1696]

If you read really carefully what you just wrote you will notice that the progress only works if accel actually manipulates force on the same level as the one holding the particles together. Or very close to that. Accel would in this scenario have to control all the <--- force through his ability, except the small part that was the force of his fist. Meaning that for the <--- force to overcome the binding force holding the particles together he would require to manipulate force of the magnitude of the durability. He can gain that force by pushing against an object and always reflecting the force of the object pushing back at him, but that is just one way and in the end result not really different from just redirecting this force from the earths rotation or anything.

All in all: Amount of force he has to manipulate to overcome durability = durability => No durability negation.

he actaully doesn't really touch, just the "barrier" can apply this effect as it just reflection, by durability negation i mean the ability to penetrate all the material he wants as the material will always be hit with just enough force to reach the breaking point thanks to the opposite force applied to the barrier by the object

 

[Malox1696]

The force pushing against his fist when touching is a different force from the binding forces that cause structural integrity of the target, albeit from the same source.
Dissolving the material by inverting the binding forces of the material should in theory be possible, but was never practically demonstrated and would require major calculation force (though not necessarily beyond accels capacity)

i don't mean by dissolving the melocular bond of atoms what i menat is that every material as has faliure point ( point when a fracture occur) this point is dictated by how much opposing force can the material exert when under stress but if u can use that opposing force aganist the materail itself the force used on the material will always reach the faliure point and so can be fractured

(a pratical example is negative mass wich does exatly as accel reflection does)

 

[Malox1696]

Should we count orina spells as simple spells that everyone with western magic knowledge can use ? After all by the description the short hand just allowed her to bypass aligning to a certain element, using her own mana, being automatic(immune to spell intercept) and boosted by the grimore, so casting the spell without anyone knowing form where who or what they are, and she said they were simple combination as she writes new one every time