Toaru Majutsu no Index Discussion Thread 4

[LazyHunter]

No he didn't, tha's just his regular redirection. When he was small, kids rushed him. His redirection sent all that energy back into the point of contact and broke their bones. People attacking Accelerator in melee always get hurt like that, it has nothing to do with what you made up.

So no, since this is still something that never happened in the actual series, I continue to disagree.

 

[Malox1696]

how could a rushing kid have the force to break his arm and the teacher too who was just trying to stop him ? and him breaking the metal wall was during the eraly stage of the experiment when he still had reflection only, a wall that was not pushing accel

 

[LazyHunter]

Because melee attacks against Accelerator are always redirected at least 2x? And because Accelerator explained he didn't have as good of a grasp of his powers when he was younger? At that point nobody knew how strong he was. He makes a mistake, gets scared or whatever and his reflection mirrors that by increasing its potency. We already know it responds to his emotions and subconcious, it was the whole point of Misaka Worst's attacks getting through his reflection because he didn't want to hurt another Sister again no matter what. No clue what you mean about a metal wall.

Again, I do not support adding made-up abilities or headcanon into pages, so unless you can actual bring definite canon evidence I'll continue to disagree with you.

 

[Malox1696]

I m not adding ability, look im not talking about durability negation, accel redirection shield should be able to redirect up to 6a amount of power right ?




Here we see accelerator denting the wall in the early part of the experiment when he could only use redirection, the standing wall does not apply any vector to accel but when it's inside the filter the force that the wall tries to apply to the filter is redirected with just enough force to bend the wall, so if his redirection can redirect up to 6A amount of force it should be able to do the same when instead of the object moving towards him, he moves towards the object so in melee accell should be able to output with reflection up to 6A of force depending on the object he pushes (if it's a 6a pushes with 6a amount of force)

what im saying is that he can reach tier 6A without needing the rotation of the planet in melee if the opponent has 6A durability (same for lower durability not higher).

once again as we are using the 6A limit on his personal reality and it's not durability negation as i said before (as i was calculating with the assumptions of limitless maginitude control)

 

[LazyHunter]

Which chapter is that?

 

[SchroKatze]

High 6-A, not 6-A

 

[Malox1696]

Which chapter is that?

railgun manga during the fight wiht accel he has a flash back (agust 21 part 5)

and again quoting DT : "There is no practical difference between using the force of the object pushing back at his hand for that and using just any other force." obviously with limit of 6A

 

[LazyHunter]

I had already checked said chapter and the raws and I couldn't find that part in the flashback, it apparently got changed in the volume release to add the "fight" with Misaka 1.

I don't even know where you get that Accelerator only had reflection from the original version, though it doesn't really matter because Accelerator clearly has full use of his powers in the updated version as seen by how he uses them for his super-speed and super-strength. Even in the in the original version he likely just started kicking the door.

 

[Malox1696]

accel ganined vector control only "recently". voulme 6 ch 37 page 10 for the scan (and i remember seeing it animated too, maybe in the blue ray ?) and in the anime it already be shown accel can use the "barrier" to "touch" things (when he is beating the thughs for example).

 

[LazyHunter]

I don't think a specific date has been given, but the Level 6 Shift appears to have been running for at most a year, and Accelerator clearly has vector control by the time it started, as seen by his fight with Misaka 1.

 

[Malox1696]

where does he use vector control on misaka 1?

 

[LazyHunter]

He uses it for super speed to disappear from her sight and then uses it to defeat her by tapping her back. Those are like two of his basic vector control applications, almost the only things he did before he started getting creative with it.

 

[Malox1696]

those things can be explained by what i said above already without vector control, he redirects the force he applies to the ground to "push" it harder but u can't move the planet so accel get moved instead as the speed he wants by deciding how much force to apply to the ground, for the fact that he just tap her to hit her with enough force to almost knock her out i already explained above

 

[LazyHunter]

It's clearly vector control.

Like what happened with the discussion about Amata's counter to Accelerator's redirection, you are refusing to accept the actual story. You have no evidence for your headcanon. As long as no actual evidence that validates it comes, I'll continue to disagree with your idea.

 

[Malox1696]

It's clearly vector control.
Like what happened with the discussion about Amata's counter to Accelerator's redirection, you are refusing to accept the actual story. You have no evidence for your headcanon. As long as no actual evidence that validates it comes, I'll continue to disagree with your idea.

he has already shown the ability to use the "barrier" to attack without the need to touch the enemy and here we se clearly that the barrier can interact even if accelerator move towards the object
btw what i'm proposing is not even an upgrade

edit: i proved my reasoning and brought scans too, if u fell that it is headcanon u could always explain it to me why it is

 

[DontTalkDT]

no.

 

[ZERO7772]

Lol Toaru fandom here is hilarious in may ways

 

[Malox1696]

no.

To what ?

 

[DontTalkDT]

no.

To what ?

The removed reply above mine (Was about magic gods having plot manipulation)

 

[Malox1696]

@DT What would happen if a 6a durability character hit with 7b of force the reflection filter ?

 

[Zensum]

@Lazy/DT where would u rank the spell 'Innocentius' dependant Regenerationn. As in permenently defeating it without destroying the rune cards. Right now to me the spell seems like a combo of type 8 immortality and a Regenerationn but dunno which.

 

[LazyHunter]

I don't think there's a good way to quantify it. When Index took it out it was with her wings ripping it apart and overloading the rune cards supporting it. So if I had to give it a level, maybe "at most High-Mid"?

 

[Zensum]

Yeah true kinda hard to pin point. Its body has been fully negated by touma and then come back before so I was thinking it would be around the low high - mid high range. Index method seemed to destroy it completley by force, preventing it from reforming and then the back flow of magic reversed and shorted all the runes knocking back styl.

 

[LazyHunter]

As you said, an opponent negating it wouldn't necessarily affect the cards, so Innocentius would simply pop back up. And we don't know if Index's wings have weird properties like Accelerator's given how little we know about them, so we can't say it was 100% based on their raw power. I'd still assume a powerful enough attack would likely overload the cards for simplicity.

 

[Zensum]

Indeed negating would be different than raw power. She seemed to analyze the spell before she acted so that might be where the strange property comes from. I'm sure it was a little more than physical force as well. Whatever she did though she stopped it from coming back before the cards burned up from the magic 'rebounding'. However I don't think hitting innocentus with enough force would perma down it and reverse the magic in a 'normal situation' as the runes are just the means to bring it back which they were able to do after it was fully negated. "Attacking Innocentius will have no effect. Unless the rune engravings carved into the walls, floor, and ceiling are eliminated, it will revive as many times as necessary." I belive the time between annihilation and revival was less than 1/10 of a second so Index woulda had to do something special to bypass it's regen then short the card magic. Which we dunno exactly.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Thought of the day: How many souls does Post-revival Kakine have?

It's a strange topic, but I think the Doppelganger arc suggests 2 options:

1. If Misaka is correct and the Doppelganger has no soul, I would say that Kakines dark matter beings, as artificial creations of similar nature, don't have one either, including the currently acting Kakine. That means the original Kakines soul is with the original kakine and the post-revival has none.

2. If the Doppelganger has a soul, than according to the same line of thoughts every dark matter being has a soul as well, which would mean if Kakine switches bodies he even switches souls.

 

[Malox1696]

@DT

on the argument from above if accel with barrier ON rushes aganist the wall with only reflection ON does he crash in the wall or does the wall get destroyed ?

 

[LazyHunter]

It is a a strange topic.

Even the Doppelganger came to the conclusion that it had no soul and was just a really good AI. The dreams Kuriba has could support the soul interpretation, though dream Doppelganger still maintains it has no soul. We don't know if the Doppelganger is wrong or not, so it's hard to answer that question.

One could also consider grimoires in this question, as they are sentient collections of occult knowledge created by magicians. As seen with Mina they can display human-like intelligence, though that could be just because of its peculiar origins (AI/computer compared to simpler formats like books), and its function (imitating people from Crowley's past). Does Mina have a soul? Do all grimoires have one?

 

[Zensum]

Probably something artificial that acts like a soul or effectively functions like one but not exactly the real thing imo

 

[LazyHunter]

I have a slight issue with the stats in some of our weapon pages like the HsPS-15 or its shotgu.

1. An anti-tank missile and a tank are Small Building level in AP/Durability, right? We even have the Metal Eater listed as "At least 9-A" for this reason. So we should change the shotgun's AP to "At least 9-A" and the HsPS-15's Durability to Small Building level. This also means some changes for Tsuchimikado, Therestina Kihara Lifeline Enemy Blaster, Large Mobile Weapo, Tarantula and Taotie. Hm, maybe the scene with the Taotie's main gun could be calced.

2. The Railgun FIVE_Over's railguns being stronger than Mikoto's shouldn't automatically put it as Large Building level. Building level for its AP and Durability is better. This also fits Hamazura causing some damage to the one he fought with a lot of Metal Eater bullets exploding at point-blank range.

Before making a CRT, is there anything else that scales to these weapons that would be affected?

 

[Zensum]

How about at least building level for FIVE_Over's

Speaking of, why are the mechs that kept up with Accel subsonic when Accel is MHS?

 

[LazyHunter]

The calc for Mikoto's coin railgun is 0.308 tons. I don't think being stronger than that justifies an "at least", especially when the powered suits it wiped out are likely just Wall to Small Building level Durability.

ED: Because we don't scale to Accelerator's speed unless the novel explicitly tells us the opponent can keep up with his higher levels of speed? Otherwise Touma, Amata and Sugitani would be MHS.

 

[Zensum]

Yea we know it is stronger than railguns which is building level, and the 'at least' just denotes the lower cap of a character if the exact value isnt known.

The mechs that keep up with accel are in his manga. and they tell us in manga form they keep up with him by... showing that they are keeping up with him through images. Obviously there is no narration to state this, so it is expressed via pictures

 

[LazyHunter]

Stronger than something so far down the tier like Mikoto's railgun can just mean it is further up in the 8-C tier. Without other feats I won't support "at least".

Unless you can prove that Accelerator is moving at his best speeds in the manga while fighting them they don't scale. And considering how he stomps them when fighting them one on one... Escaping from him doesn't mean they scale either, they were slower than him forcing them to rely on the teleportation tricks to keep them from catching up. And as that same scene shows, Accelerator's travel speed is "whatever the plot demands it is", as he's slower than the Taotie's missiles, and in NT1, despite being explicitly able to move at supersonic speeds even if you discount calcs and only follow the novel's words, he's still unable to easily catch up to the Highway Cheetah.

 

[Zensum]

At least denotes the lower cap of FIVE_Over's railgun as we don't the exact value. Thats why the 'at least' term exists. Being vaguley above building level, mikotos railgun, is all that is required based on the rules.

Nah this is what i'm saying. These are the mechs: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Qiong_Qi, https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Taotie, https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Hundun

I am questioning why the speed is specifically 'subsonic',Subsonic (Faster than the Eye) (Mach 0.1-0.5) (34.3-171.5 m/s or 76.7-383.6 mph), based off these types of reasonings "Used rocket boosters to fly and flee from Accelerator, Kept up with Accelerator as he chased the Hundun" as you say thier speeds are no where close to his. On these pages the speed raiting is given and then comapred to Accel who is obviously rated much faster. Which makes it confusing as accel has no subsonic speed. So either they are scaled from something else an that should be posted as the reasoing or they should be faster than they are.

 

[LazyHunter]

That is not what I've seen, being vaguely stronger than something just puts you in the same tier unless the "something" is in the upper levels of the tier or you're casually stronger than it so it's possible you're above said tier, which is not the case here. I'll ask in the CRT, but I'll still support just Building level.

All powered suits and similar mechs have Subsonic speeds scaling from Hard Taping and them being superior to regular vehicles in speed/mobility, and rocket boosters should indicate at least similar levels of speed. We can remove the comparison to Accelerator if you like.

 

[Zensum]

At least

Should be used to denote the lower cap of a character, if the exact value is indeterminate.


Nah it's good. ovo

 

[LazyHunter]

I'll ask in the CRT then. I'll probably make it tomorrow and take the chance to fix the mech's speed justifications.

 

[Zensum]

Sounds good.

 

[LazyHunter]

CRT made.