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Toaru Majutsu no Index Discussion Thread 4

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Tbh... You should calc Fiamma's 5-B feat. It seems to be 5-A since its similar to Black Hat's feat.

Exploding a planet with enough force to reduce it to dust and overpower its GBE and contaminating the surrouding space with the debris is definitelly above baseline.
 
Maybe 1% above baseline. The energy aside from GBE is negligible.

KE calcs like the black hat one you are referencing are only possible if you have cinematic footage or very specific descriptions, neither of which we have here.
 
As it turns out calcing westminster bridge isn't all that easy, as the arches seem a bit hollow.

So I just guessed it to be about building level. The page is made now.
 
The 1st arc of the anime is done. First episode was decent, the next two were a bit meh.

Some scenes were rushed/cut to fit the arc in three episodes. Unavoidable, but still sucks that some of the exposition of the arc got cut. Tsuchimikado's scenes and AC invasion in ep 3 were particularly rushed, and the anime version of the fight he has with the HsPS-15s is really lame. The Earth Blades could have been a lot better. IMO they didn't really portray Itsuwa's fear of Accelerator well in the closing Avignon scene. Acqua killing Terra in the epilogue should have been a lot faster, Terra doesn't have time to react to the attack in the novel and that's why he doesn't use his power, while in the anime he has time to akwardly flail before getting crushed.

Also a bit silly how at the start of episode 3 Touma is hit by the flour guillotine and is left confused as to how he's still alive before Itsuwa figures out the basis of the spell, then talking about the "destructive power" the guillotine had displayed just before. Except the flashback chooses to show how the anime, for some reason, decided to have the guillotine phase through walls instead of cleanly slicing through them, so there's no destructive power to be seen in the flashback. JCStaff continue to be experts in pointless changes.

This was the weakest arc of the ones adapted in this season so it doesn't bother me that much. The manga adaptation of this arc is better.
 
I pray the next arc is well adapted at least decently if nothing else. Especially since the next arc is one of the more interesting standouts in the series.
 
Damn this arc is going faster than Sonic.
 
To be fair, the Battle Royale arc is supposed to be frantic, with a lot of shifts in perspective. Since anime removes a lot of the exposition and descriptions of the text, the already small scenes go that much faster.

So far they mostly removed a few details and moved some stuff around. There's a few scenes missing that I assume will come up next ep, like Uiharu meeting Last Order and scenes with MEMBER and BLOCK. But Sunozara sniping Monaka, that scene got rushed so fast the anime even had Musujime teleporting Accelerator to Monaka instead of him and Tsuchimikado having time to go there on their own and analyze the situation.

We also lost Group's lunch scene. Shame.
 
Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler, NT 21 Spoiler, Spoiler!!! With that said, I will start right away:

I think there are a lot of things to do for this Volume, but let's begin with the most complicated thing: The hell is Mathers (and the Golden Cabals) durability?

I had a lot of thought about this and think we are probably talking about 3 separate durabilities.

1. Magical Defenses against Magic: The magicians of the golden cabal were stated to use spells that incorporate even the power of magic gods. With that background knowledge and considering that Aleister said: Mathers "can denote any aspect of the world with his complete control of the four most basic elements. Challenging that with the supernatural is as useless as aiming a flashlight at the sun." I think we can conclude that Mathers has magic protection in place that prevents Aleister of just brute force killing him. The story certainly back that up.

Hence the conclusion I would draw is that Mather can produce anti-magic defenses that cancel power up to Universe level.

2. Base Durability: Mathers can seemingly not simply be killed by Accelerator and, more importantly, tanked the Liquid Proof Railgun. That he tanked the A.A.A shot when Aleister imbued it was his power can be taken as supportive evidence

All in all I would say against common attacks his durability is Multi-Continent level.

Since this seems to come from grimoire properties and Mikoto also didn't kill the golden magicians at that point, this probably applies to other grimoires than Mathers as well.

3. Durability against area covering attacks: Now we know the weakness of grimoirs. By filling the entire area around them with high amounts of energy the power transfer from the ley lines can be disrupted. I think it is evident that the amount of energy the area has to be filled with is less than what the grimoires can tank otherwise.

The difficult part is pinpointing the amount of energy. Academy City's optical laser, focussed and doubled in power sufficed to do it. Since I have no doubt that one of Academy City's super weapons could surpass a nuclear weapon, especially in terms of energy density when focussed, this doesn't tell us a lot.

Personally I would rank it as Mountain level energy, just as grimoire's current durability is and for the same reason. If original grimoire's are indestructible by saint level fighters I believe that includes when surrounded by energy. Otherwise making a set up to actually destroy them that way would have been easy.


Opinions on my reasoning?


Btw. short opinion: The Aleister arc continues to be great. I have yet to decide whether this or NT 18 was the best in this arc. I'm just not quite sure how ok I am with the Lola Stuart deception yet.
 
1. I don't really agree with that. I don't think that's nearly enough evidence for giving him 3-A anti-magic defenses when Aleister's AAA magic attack, which is clearly not at that level, could wound him (Do we even see Mathers use antimagic defenses instead of tanking + regen?)

We don't even know what Aleister means with "can denote any aspect of the world with his complete control of the four most basic elements". Like, NT18 also said "Mathers controlled all things on the material level by sending those symbolic weapons floating around him", something that isn't really seen or demonstrated there or in this novel, because Mathers just uses them for elemental attacks. I think we should stick with what's clear.

2. Accelerator not immediately killing someone with an attack is not necessarily a reason to scale their durability to his max output. Otherwise we should start scaling Touma to Acqua and Silvia.

As I mentioned above the AAA magic shot powered by Aleister did hurt Mathers, it's stated to have tore into his side. We also don't see him actually tank the Liquid Proof Railgun, only receive the attack and be fine a moment later when Touma catches sight of him again, so it could be just regen. Not to mention the attack seems to have had a lot less room to travel and accelerate than the first time it was used, so wouldn't it be weaker by an unquantifiable amount?

He is also hurt by Aleister's physical attacks during their dual when they start punching each other.

3. I agree.

IMO "At least Mountain level" like we have for Mina sounds fine for Mathers' Durability, though it should be noted that it would only apply to Mathers if we end up making pages for other members, since they are clearly weaker. Westcott, for example, was cut by a weakened Tatemiya slash just fine.
 
1. Aleister specifically says magic (well supernatural) is useless against Mathers. Not science. It being a general result of Regenerationn appears to be unlikely given that context.

And since Mathers is on par with Aleister as a magician it is absolutely not hard to believe that he could counter magic on that level.


The A.A.A. is a mixture of science and magic. To that comes that when infused with Aleisters magic it is a magic god killer that might very well be a lot more powerful than we currently have evidence for.


It was at the very least noted that the wind dagger can form a protective circle around him, though I personally think that the "denoting elements" thing is likely a form of intefering with others magic. Not that it matters a lot with which technique Mathers stops Aleister from instantly vaporizing him.

To that comes that if he can not be annihilated by Aleisters magic he must have at least "High" Regenerationn. If it comes to how an attack was survived I would go with durability as first assumption.

The fact that Mathers created a stone spear to fix his broken bone instead of regenerating it kinda speaks against Regenerationn as well.

There is also another thing speaking against Regenerationn. Dion Fortune tanked Aleisters attacks without getting heavily injured and retained her (minor) injuries until Hamazura found her. So the grimoire indestructibility doesn't seem based on Regenerationn and different than Westcott Mathers lacks his own immortality magic. At the same time Golden Cabal magicians were made clear to be strangely hard to injure.


That Mathers has very good magic counters is the most consistent explanation.

2. Accelerator not immediately killing him was only meant as supportive evidence, though the fact that Aleister didn't seem to believe that Accelerator could straight up go kill them directly is better support.

The Liquid proof railgun was not weaker, given that this very shot was again described as stronger than the #1 and as "the fearsome attack that had torn holes in the Windowless Building".

I'm not sure if the observation that it tore into his side, is actually meaning damage or just specifying were it impacted (like when Kamachi writes that Aleisters fist tears into Mathers side). The fact that he wasn't blasted away speaks for the latter.


Though I suppose different from the magic defenses this could indeed be Mathers using a common healing spell.


3. Yeah, the rest of the golden cabal seems strangely fragile. At least when not in large groups.
 
KuuIchigo said:
Mathers also reacted to a laser.
Click to expand...
Hm? Mathers was hit by the laser and initially with its reflection (which had an exchange of words inbetween). Just then Edward Berridge tackeled him out of the way.

They didn't really react to faster than the laser.
 
Other changes aside from golden magician stuff from the Volume:

  • Misaka can generate Microwaves to warm stuff.
  • Misaka should finally get an A.A.A. key. That key would get Mach 6 speed.
  • Lola Stuart's page should be renamed to Coronzon in my opinion
  • Coronzon and all other demons and angels (except probably Kazakiri) should get non-corporeality added to their profile, given the explanations in the prologue.
  • Accelerator should get manipulation of magic power or something. We probably should also mention him being able to cancel Qliphah Puzzle 545's contract... Should we give him the demon as standard equipement?... probably not.... yet.
  • All the spells Aleister used in the Mathers battle should be added to him. I guess he would need a bible for those...
  • I suppose the A.A.A. need updating. If Misaka's A.A.A. can fly at Mach 6, Noukan's A.A.A. should be able to as well, right?
 
@DontTalkDT

1. Aleister might have said that, but he defeats him with magic afterwards and we simply didn't see this antimagic defens that you're arguing he has. We also don't see Aleister trying Blasting Rod or Spiritual Tripping in this volume becuse he made a point if trying to use science, but we know Spiritual Tripping worked on him when he was alive so magic is not useless against him because some technique he has. And the same vague "he can control anything with his four elements magic" claim was made on that volume, so it's not something he gained as a grimoire.

The AAA supernatural powers continue to be unquantifiable beyond a vague "can kill immortals". It's obviously stronger than any of its regular attacks and likely stronger than Aleister regular magic, but since Mathers didn't tank it he doesn't scale to it.

Since he has Regenerationn, hi surviving an attack offscreen cannot be immediately assumed to be Durability. The stone spear is a weird nonsense scene since we saw him regenerate his entire arm before no problem, so unless he didn't want to wait the second or two it took the arm to recover there's no actual reason for him to have done that.

The other Golden Dawn members are clearly weaker, so they might not even have the same level of Regenerationn given they obvuously don't have the same level of durability.

2. Mountain level Durability is enough to tank Accelerator's regular attacks, and the attack focus was the "reverse blooflow/bioelectricity" part, which didn't work because of Mather's grimoire body.

The Liquid Proof Railgun explicitly gets stronger the more space it has to go before hitting their target. Ergo, the target being closer in this instance would make it unquantifiably weaker. It being the same attack doens't mean it has the same power, Mikoto can regulate the power of her coin Railgun and despite the different level of power it's still the same attack. Not to mention the statement is "In a way, this blast was stronger than the #1". Stronger that Accelerator's normal attacks in raw strength doesn't autoamtically mean Multi-Continent level.

The attack is said to tear into his side. If you say that's too vague that's fine, but the argument he tanked it instead of regenerating is also equally vague then, because Touma lost sight of him by the shockwave for a few moments. Also, him not being blasted away could be the attack just tearing a hole through him, him using a spell to anchor himself to the ground, etc. People not getting blasted away by attacks despite having regular human weight is common in fiction.

About other stuff:

I agree with giving Mikoto a key for her with the AAA (though the speed should be noted as flight only, she also said her combat speed is Mach 2.5) plus the microwaves and breakind down air to produce oxygen. We can also take this chance to give her the minor stuff she should be capable of that was mentioned in Astral Buddy: limited Light Manipulation and limited Statistics Amplification.

Coronzon's page gets renamed and it gets Flight and Fire Manipulation.

I think Kazakiri also gets Non-Corporeality, the issue being that like all other demons and angels besides Coronzon she cannot do much in that state, it's when she's left stuck in the Imaginary Number District not being able to interact with the regular world.

I mean, Accelerator could already do that since magic is a type of energy, one more comprehensible than Telesma, but it should be mentioned regardless he's now much more skilled at it than in WWIII. I would make a page for Qliphah and give it to Accelerator via summoning

Aleister and Mathers new spells should be added. Aleister's improvised tech should also be added, at least on the intelligence section.

Noukan's AAA scaling to Mikoto's is obvious, yeah.
 
This was brought up in a ton of versus threads back then so I hope I'm not being too problematic bringing it up here.

Should Aleister also get time Stop resistance for being able to move in places where time doesn't exist? Or does the site discard Void feats as they can be inconsistent?

Also are we sure that first key Aleister is really only Subsonic?
 
Someone messed up the page. the blood sacrifice shouldn't be another key, it's just a speed/dura/ap buff that he uses in base. it's not a transformation.

Aleister is Subsonic with much higher reactions though.

@DontTalk, he was following the Laser down. Mathers knew the laser wouldn't harm him so he didn't take any action.

They were indoors, yet Mathers still sensed an intense beam of light dropping toward him from overhead. The light pierced and destroyed everything in its path, but…

"Is that all you've got, novice? You really thought an orbital bombing was enough to fry me!?"
 
he rekt them. Don't remember the specific details now but they lost.

other things to note from this volume.

Coronzon is fast. Also confirmed stronger than Aiwass but Aiwass at full strength hinted at being stronger

Angelister is At least High 6A. Probably all White Wing angel forms should just be High 6A. I don't really know why it isn't. Angelerator is = to telesma bomb.

Mathers can summon all 4 archangels. too bad Angelister destroyed them immediately.
 
@LazyHunter: I kinda misinterpreted the part where Mathers regenerated from the laser. I thought in the end Edward Berridge tackeled him out of the way before he was actually damaged.

With him having feats of Regenerationn alerady I am fine with settling on High Regenerationn.


On that note, Aleister should get his smartphone with the control over the laser sattelite.


@KuuIchigo: I see. I guess that should account to some reactions. Will have to look into which orbit it is.


I am sceptical about Aleisters form being an angel form in the same sense as accelerators. Magicians are a lot about imitation, so the loos quite possibly just as setup for the christian magic.


The blood sacrifice is not a transformation, but it is a permanent power up. Hence listing it as separate key makes sense.


@general: Mathers AP stats are the next point of debate, I guess.

Since he could match Aleister in close combat I guess he must be able to physically contest with saints?

Aside from the he summoned the 4 Archangels. WIth the mentioning of "Each of them carried enough firepower to obliterate this unclean world. The pressure from Gabriel alone had caused the entire world to audibly strain to the breaking point when driven down from heaven by Angel Fall." I believe we can conclude on a more or less full power summoning?

If so his magic can probably reach High 6-B levels. Aleister in christian form would be able to match that with his common magic.
 
As if anyone not here will respond about minor updates.

Fine I will do one for protocoll, after we agreed on everything here.
 
Actually... Gabriel's true form wouldn't just cause a 2000km wide explosion. It would annihilate half the planet and eject it from the solar system.

Bambu calc'd it to be High end High 5-A to baseline Low 4-C.
 
That is only stated as a possible consequence of Misha overloading and exploding herself.

It falls into the same level of applicability as astro in hand. Maybe worse.


I think it's also more in the 5-B direction.
 
Just something to add to the revision of Mikoto's page, I've just noticed she doesn't have her ability to paralyze via electricity listed. Not only is that a common effect of electric attacks, she can regulate her electricity especifically to cause it without doing anything harmful to the target.

OT21 War Report

Danger signals fired within the pilot's mind. He tried to run out of the bomber and yell to inform others of the danger.

But sparks flew before he could.

A high voltage current regulated to not leave any after effects forcibly constricted the pilot's muscles so he could not move even a finger.

"Gah…!?"

"Sorry about that. I'm pretty pissed off, so I can't guarantee that I'll hold back next time," the girl, Misaka Mikoto, informed the pilot as he almost seemed to be hyperventilating. "Take me to Russia. It'd be great if you would just do your job as you were originally supposed to."
 
Where was limited light manipulation for Misaka mentioned in astral buddy?

I'm in the process of writing the thread for all the stuff.
 
Hokaze mentioned something about if she was on Misakas level as a electromaster she could manipulate the beams of light. lemme find it.

http://*********.com/Manga/Toaru-Ka...dy/Vol--002-Ch-011---Read-Online?id=423207#21
 
Made the thread.

I have decided to not spam quotes without request, for easier readability, but if someone wants to spam the quotes in the replies that's fine with me.


Did I forget something?
 
So they didn't really add the scenes they skipped for MEMBER and BLOCK in episode 5; they skipped those completely. We don't get to really see why MEMBER gets involved in the whole Battle Royale. And skipping Etzali's scene spying on BLOCK also removes the scene where he protects his cover by crippling Tetsumou and having another member take the fall. For some reason the anime, instead of cutting her completely since that was her only scene, decided to make her go with the other members to the mission, despite not being a combat member and get incapacitated there. Another stupid change was making the Proffesor ready to use his Mimosa in Kakine from a few meters away while monologing about his love for science, which makes him an idiot compared to his novel counterpart, which was controlling them remotely from outside the building and only started talking with Yobou about it after he thought Kakine was doomed.

Minor things lost in adaptation include exposition and explanations about the goals of the factions and what's happening, Teshio Megumi being an ex-Anti-Skill officer with a tragic incident on his past, Teshio aimdodging Tsuchimikado's shots from close range and putting Awaki through a prison door, the reason why Accelerator shot himself and used his reflection to take out Saraku (Sarakuhad messed with the gun's sight while he was attacking Accelerator), Kakine modifying and improving the Tweezers on the spot, seeing the Mimosa in action, the Six Wings' Flame Crash bullets and iron sand anti-missile balls (got turned into regular flares in the anime), Xochitl's disguise and the mechanics behind her spell and grimoire.
 
I would have thought this arc would need at least 2 more episodes, but with the Kakine vs Accelerator fight being shown in the preview they could wrap everything up next week.
 
Even though lots of details were skipped I liked the pacing more than that of last episode.

I wonder how the pacing and details are percieved from the perspective of someone that doesn't know the novel.
 
The battle is probably shorter and more onesided that what most people think. Though there's a point before Accelerator figures out Dark Matter where they are described as clashing in the air continously, so they could build up on that and extend the fight.

Not much though since they still have to deal with the resolution of ITEM vs SCHOOL and Hamazura vs Mugino before Accelerator and Kakine fight.
 
You referring to post revival or normal Kakine.

IIRC Kakine was pushing Accelerator back quite easily until he figured out Dark Matter
 
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