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Tier 2 characters CRT

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Zamasu_Chan

Zamasu_Chan

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A ton of tier 2 characters need to be downgraded to tier 3 lemme explain why.

My Premise​

3-A is for character who can destroy a universe. Low 2-C is destroying a universe and it's space time, and 2-C is destroying multiple universes. Sounds simple right? Well I have a slight problem with this. 3-A assumes busting the universe = destroying all the matter, such as all the planets, stars, nebula, etc. This is more like "multi galaxy++" instead of universal. In Reality when destroying the universe you'd have to destroy it's space. When you destroy its space, you destroy it's time because they're relative. One cannot function without the other. Therefore 3-A should be automatic space time destruction. Now I know what you're thinking, "but Zamasu, destroying space time with the universe is low 2-C." Yes and no. One, the universe = celestial bodies + space time. Now here's where my problem comes in.

In general, I feel like many of the tier 2 DBS supporters don't understand space-time continua or tier 2 that well. Destroying a space-time continuum doesn't just mean destroying the spatial universe as well as the flow of time so that time no longer flows - it means destroying the spatial universe at every point in time, from the beginning to the very end. This is what qualifies you for Low 2-C and up, although it is not the only way to reach that high, of course.
For Infinite Zamasu to be Low 2-C off of merging with Universe 7, he would have to be spreading throughout it not only spatially, but temporally as well - in other words, into the past and the future. He evidently does not do this, because we don't see him going across time beyond a small part of him showing up in the present, and he is killed by a technique that evidently did not erase the timeline itself, since Whis can still go to a point in that timeline before Zeno erased everything in it.
In the first place, declaring Universe 7 to be its own space-time continuum distinct from the other 11 Universes implies that its past and future are not shared with the past and future of any other Universe, and yet Gowasu and Zamasu know about Future Trunks having gone into the past to change Goku's fate because it created a new time ring in their drawer, which suggests that the 12 Universes share the same time axis, after all.
To be honest, any verse that scales characters to somewhere in the multiversal levels of power based on destroying multiple universes should be downgraded if it is provable that those universes were only destroyed at one moment and not across all moments. Even if they are causally separated, the most this would grant is Interdimensional Range.
Click to expand...
~ KingPin

Low 2-C is effectively destroying uncountably infinite snapshots of the spatial universe, so, yeah, it isn't the same thing as 3-A anyway.
Click to expand...
~ Ultima

I do think we're too generous with tier 2 ratings, if that's what you mean. I feel like people take anything involving multiple universes and/or space-time too liberally and default to tier 2, even if it is illogical. Proper timeline busting would require destroying universes at every point in time. If you don't do that and you don't have reliable statements of being able to significantly affect space-time, you shouldn't be tier 2. This is also why I think that affecting multiple universes, even if they are spatio-temporally separated, is not necessarily what we would call a multiversal feat if no apparent time shenanigans happen. You could possibly still get tier 2 range out of it even if it doesn't mean tier 2 AP, though.
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~ KingPin

If you didn't get the message already, in order to be tier 2, you need to strictly destroy an entire timeline. Not just the universe and its space time but every single point of the past, present and future. Take the Big Bang for example, it's the creation of the universe, and by extension space time, however it didn't create the past present and future at the same time, only a singular point in time. When destroying a timeline, you're basically destroying the universe an infinite amount of times simultaneously. The same can be said for multiversal characters. Destroying multiple universes in one era =/= destroying multiple timelines.

Let's take DBS for example. For lots of people, including myself, saw the BoG feat as 2-C because it has multiple realms. This feat actually does include space time destruction. The living universe is based on our own, just like our universe, it would have it's own body of space time. The realms are also spatially separated, and breaking the spatial borders would be destroying space time. That's all fine and dandy but we failed to understand that it's not just space time, but the entire past present and future. Another example is how Zeno destroyed multiple universes but not the timeline (at least in the anime).

Conclusion​

If any low 2-C to 2-A characters are rated the way they are without the mention of timelines or the past present and future, they should be downgraded.

Universal destruction (3-A) should include space time so jumping from 3-B to 3-A via large scaling or multipliers shouldn't be a thing. The gap between 3-B and 3-A should be unquantifiable. This may include characters who are 3-B for over time universal destruction.

Let’s see how this goes. 🤷‍♂️
 
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Should this be staff only? Seems like a very important CRT

Anyways, I'll bring some drinks and see how it goes
 
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POV: I just noticed your verse is tier 2.
 
yep this is going to be interesting to see, this is kinda a big deal at least in terms of the wiki😭
 
Why should we try to destroy the entire timeline, I think what will it contribute to the Wiki, what will make it easier, it will just cause confusion.
 
I initially fully supported this proposal, but after thinking about it, I don't necessarily agree with the premise that destroying all of past, present, and future should be required for tier 2, but I do think that such feats could somehow be recognized as more impressive than merely destroying space-time.

If you don't know already, our model of space-time is defined as a manifold of 3+1 dimensions: three dimensions of space, plus the one dimension of time. Mathematically, this would be defined as the coordinate space R^4, since time dimensions have the same size as spatial dimensions. The time dimension, of course, intersects space at every point, meaning that the entire spatial universe as we live in it is effectively a single point in time.

Now, why does this matter? From a purely mathematical view, it doesn't. Whether it's a timeline or a space-time continuum, the size is going to be R^4. Physically, however, there is a notable difference between a space-time continuum and a timeline. A space-time continuum entails that space and time are relative to each other, and affecting one has to affect the other. The universe in this case is portrayed as ever-changing. A timeline, on the other hand, has the universe being a static entity that only appears to change from our perspectives- under this model, all of past, present and future would coexist at once, and time is treated as something akin to a higher dimension above the three we experience as opposed to merely another kind of dimension which happens to be adjunct to space.

From here, what makes significantly affecting a timeline superior as a feat to significantly affecting a space-time continuum is simple: the former would involve the past and future of the spatially 3-D universe being affected all at once, whereas the latter doesn't necessarily have such implications. For our purposes, though, timelines aren't necessarily larger than space-time continua, even if they are structurally very different.

So what could we do? Well, we can take the easy route and just say that since these two things have the same size, there shouldn't be any practical difference between them tiering-wise, albeit with possibly noting that timelines are more advanced than space-time continua and should be treated as such when comparing tier 2 characters in versus threads. Alternatively, we can split tier 2 into two types of multiverses: a bubble multiverse and a quantum multiverse. Ideally, the bubble multiverse tiers would fall under 2-C and the quantum multiverse stuff can go into 2-B, and then 2-A can go back to being for 5-D characters based on the concept of a bulk in brane cosmology, which would be five-dimensional at the minimum.

The latter option would require a lot of work, though, and whichever one we go with ought to come down to whether or not timelines would be so much greater than space-time continua that even affecting an infinite number of space-time continua won't get to the level of a timeline, even though affecting an uncountably infinite number of either would entail the same 5-D power. This would be best decided by people who are knowledgeable on this topic of physics, I'd say.

(Also, if I goofed at any point in this post, please correct me. I don't want to make myself look like a fool in the face of such a major CRT.)
 
AKUTO123 said:
Why should we try to destroy the entire timeline, I think what will it contribute to the Wiki, what will make it easier, it will just cause confusion.
Click to expand...
It's explained in the OP.

EDIT: Damn KingPin. What you've just posted looks like an interesting take. I'll get other staff to see what they think.
 
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I'm just against advancing this topic from DB, we smash the observable universe, yes it is logically multi-galaxy level, I think they should destroy space and time on top of that, you are right here, But the place that seems like a force to me is the last part,The reason is how logical it is to see the observable universe (3-A) of known diameter along with space-time and the universe with infinite space-time the same... already I think a universal continuum is sufficient for low 2-c not 3A, I don't think most writers think that a universe with infinite space-time should mean destroying the past and the future.
I may be thinking a little shallow. If so, I'm sorry I can only agree with the first thing you say.
 
I'm kind of lost reading this.. im sorry for my ignorance..

Are we trying to say destroying all points of time is a greater feat?
 
Okay, so, my previous post may have been founded on misconceptions.

As I learned from Ultima, the space-time continuum as it is defined in general relativity merely indicates a framework where space and time are continuous (duh), and the word timeline already implies as much. Furthermore, a space-time continuum doesn't need to change- remember Einstein's famous quote that time is just a persistent illusion of three-dimensional space? My previous definition of a timeline would be more in line with how spacetime is described in Newtonian mechanics, wherein spacetime is just a stage where all physical phenomena occur and is uniform throughout the universe. Under general relativity, spacetime "changes," but not in the sense of its causal structure constantly evolving, rather in the sense that mass distorts spacetime, causing gravity.

Also, destroying space itself isn't necessarily going to destroy time in a way that matters. A single point in the timeline/space-time continuum would be 3-D in the same way that a single point on the real number line would be 0-D, while the line itself would be 1-D. Thus, the Dragon Ball analogy doesn't exactly work, not that it matters since DBS would get downgraded either way.

TL;DR: I messed up, and now that I've been corrected, I'm all in favor of tightening our standards on tier 2.
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
I'm not really sure about this, I need to see what other staff think on this topic, maybe we split the tier into "Low 3-A" and "3-A"?

Just a suggestion if we feel the need to distinguish between these two things
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When you say low 3-A and 3-A, did you make the distinction that a character can destroy the observable universe only by its diameter and another character can destroy diameter + space and time?
 
I feel like this is an important question.

How would this change affect Universe Creation feats, especially when it's specified that it includes a Space-Time?
 
KingPin0422 said:
Okay, so, my previous post may have been founded on misconceptions.

As I learned from Ultima, the space-time continuum as it is defined in general relativity merely indicates a framework where space and time are continuous (duh), and the word timeline already implies as much. Furthermore, a space-time continuum doesn't need to change- remember Einstein's famous quote that time is just a persistent illusion of three-dimensional space? My previous definition of a timeline would be more in line with how spacetime is described in Newtonian mechanics, wherein spacetime is just a stage where all physical phenomena occur and is uniform throughout the universe. Under general relativity, spacetime "changes," but not in the sense of its causal structure constantly evolving, rather in the sense that mass distorts spacetime, causing gravity.

Also, destroying space itself isn't necessarily going to destroy time in a way that matters. A single point in the timeline/space-time continuum would be 3-D in the same way that a single point on the real number line would be 0-D, while the line itself would be 1-D. Thus, the Dragon Ball analogy doesn't exactly work, not that it matters since DBS would get downgraded either way.

TL;DR: I messed up, and now that I've been corrected, I'm all in favor of tightening our standards on tier 2.
Click to expand...
I told all of this to KingPin off-site to begin with, so, my stance here should be fairly obvious.
 
By the way, since a bunch of people both here and outside of the wiki expressed some confusion as to what exactly this thread's proposal is, I'll say this just for clarity's sake: We are not changing the actual definition of Low 2-C, just applying some stricter standards so characters have to meet the actual requirement to qualify for it, that being destroying all of spacetime, and thus the entire universe across past, present and future. So, if you destroy the universe, but there is no evidence that it was destroyed across past and future, then you are not Low 2-C.

3-A will remain unchanged, too, since the original post was written under the idea that you can destroy spacetime at a single point in time, which is just completely wrong and born from a misdirection: A single point in time isn't 4-D, it's a 3-dimensional cross-section of the larger 4-dimensional structure of spacetime, basically a static snapshot of the universe at a single point of no time.
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
By the way, since a bunch of people both here and outside of the wiki expressed some confusion as to what exactly this thread's proposal is, I'll say this just for clarity's sake: We are not changing the actual definition of Low 2-C, just applying some stricter standards so characters have to meet the actual requirement to qualify for it, that being destroying all of spacetime, and thus the entire universe across past, present and future. So, if you destroy the universe, but there is no evidence that it was destroyed across past and future, then you are not Low 2-C.

3-A will remain unchanged, too, since the original post was written under the idea that you can destroy spacetime at a single point in time, which is just completely wrong and born from a misdirection: A single point in time isn't 4-D, it's a 3-dimensional cross-section of the larger 4-dimensional structure of spacetime, basically a static snapshot of the universe at a single point of no time. Likewise, destroying space and matter would cause time to stop existing, yes, but this would be more of a chain reaction than an actual feat: Low 2-C is explicitly about directly destroying the spacetime continuum.
Click to expand...
Alright, I agree with this then
 
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