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Won't be surprised if this practice becomes more common among future HST CRTs
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This number 9 large will rickroll any filthy, simping Uchiha in sight, Harambe will revive and take his rightful place above these inferior creatures
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Only a madman would make these.
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@UchihaSlayer96 Become staff again so that I can tag you in GoW threads ya silly goober
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Scaling webs are horrendous to look at but having blog(s) which contain all the accepted in-verse scaling would absolutely be helpful to decrease circular scaling while also proving layering into values which can't be easily explained on the profiles themselves.
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- Thread starter
- #85
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,709
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I know I've written a lot, but despite me having a lot of disagreements/nitpicks, this is still a very very well done CRT overall and I gotta applaud all the quality and effort clearly present. And before I get into "new" disagreements, I'm just gonna preface that CRTs have been made about some of this and changed already.
Basically the main stuff added by these threads are:
MS Sasuke~SM Naruto
Itachi>MS Sasuke
AS Naruto~>Kakashi
Base Rasenshuriken - At least 7-A, possiblyHigh 7-A 6-C
KN0 Rasenshuriken - Uhhhhhhh this is a bit awkward lol cause I actually pushed for RS~Minato due to it not having any real antifeats (I talked about why the Pain antifeats are pretty weak) and being extremely hyped up to the point of it potentially being able to one shot anyone as far as the 3rd DB, but if it stayed and Minato scales in the 5.68 tier it'd mean KN0 RS~Minato>SM Naruto's RS which is notagooda (or uh ig Naruto got some extra good Kurama chakra in that fight lol). I actually have some stuff to say regarding people scaling to SM Naruto's RS tho so maybe it's fine.
Base FKS/WA Sasuke - At least 7-A
Base PA/FKS/WA Naruto~Base FKS Sasuke
SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken - More than a 2x amp as it's stated to exponentially increase your attack power (more on that later when I talk about SM Naruto)
MS Sasuke's Susanoo~SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken (likely)
Shinra Tensei isn't stronger than SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken
KCM2 Naruto's Rasenshuriken - same story as with SM Naruto
Also not something that's gone through, but something that's gotten one staff's approval and is relevant is Rasengan Barrage/Planetary Rasengan being more than a 2x amp. https://vsbattles.com/threads/rasengan-barrage-is-more-than-a-2x-amp.154041/
Alright with that covered, time to get into the real stuff. Gonna bold the characters who are especially important for one reason or another.
Pre-WA Naruto - It's kinda hurting me to say this cause ik how much of a change it'd make and how much hassle that'd probably be, but honestly I don't think people should scale to SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken calc (except Naruto's RS in higher forms and people who directly scale to the RS like Itachi's Susanoo). I can see how that conclusion was reached. Pain dissipated it, and Naruto's durability, which characters scale to, is apparently enough to withstand the RS. But for Pain, like I talked about in one of the previous CRTs, he only scales to it as a projectile, not it's real strength. Kinda like how KCM2 Naruto scales above the Bijuu for knocking away their Bijuudama, but he doesn't scale to the full power of their Bijuudamas. And the databook statement doesn't really mean what it sounds like at first glance.
Yes, he became tough enough to withstand the blowback of the Rasenshuriken, but that's not the same as the full yield, or anywhere near it. As seen when he used it against Kakuzu, after slamming it into him, it knocked Kakuzu dozens of meters away BEFORE exploding, and we saw that Naruto himself didn't get touched by the explosion. So the only thing SM Naruto's durability scales to is the initial blowback/recoil of slamming the RS into someone, not its actual power. Which makes sense, since Kakuzu's durability>Kakashi's durability<~Naruto's durability, and yet Kakuzu was far more damaged by the RS than Naruto. I think a good analogy is that the Rasenshuriken is like a powerful gun. You might be able to withstand the recoil of the gun firing, which has enough force to harm a lot of people so it's still noteworthy to do so, but that doesn't mean you can withstand the bullet hitting you.
It also wouldn't work because Pain can physically damage SM Naruto, yet even Base Naruto's Rasenshuriken can harm characters like SM Jiraiya and Pain according to the databook (idt the "certain death" statement is very solid given the way it's written and it being in one of the bolded sections which are often hyperbolic, but "no one can withstand its impact" is pretty direct, and is part of the actual description of the jutsu). Add on the fact that it's exponentially stronger than the Rasengan and is probably stronger than the Rasengan Barrage which is >2x stronger than SM Naruto normally, and yeah I think the Rasenshuriken is kind of in a scaling vacuum pre-WA. Although that wouldn't actually change the ratings for anyone that scales to it in the sandbox, would just mean they scale to baseline 6-C instead (and also SM Naruto's RS would be >8.6 Gigatons), and that's actually kinda good since then the Gokage would scale to the same value as the Sannin which lines up with that statement.
I also have doubts whether SM Naruto was ever meant to surpass Minato, even at that point. Literally 10 chapters after the statement, Minato talked about Obito being superior to Pain and Naruto needing Nine Tails power to defeat him. More elaboration on problems with SM Naruto>Pre-PA Minato in the Minato section. I don't have a HUGE problem with it if it's not actually used to downscale Minato but I still find it kinda iffy.
WA Naruto - Something that I think is important to keep in mind for both SM and KCM Naruto is that for much of the war, Naruto was weakened as he'd made 13 shadow clones, which the OP even notes. Not only does it evenly distribute chakra between you and your clones, but Kakashi even specifically notes that each one's chakra is WEAKER depending on the number of clones, meaning it's definitely a power nerf and not just a stamina one. So I think for all of Naruto's feats/antifeats from when he summons the clones to when they're dissipated, there should be some mention of him being nerfed (ik it's mentioned at some points, but a lot of the times, it's not). This also applies to characters scaling to nerfed KCM Naruto like 3T Edo Itachi and all the characters that fought his clones. WA SM Naruto's AP justification should probably include the fact that Hashirama said Naruto's RS gave him the chance to seal Madara, implying it damaged him, in addition to the fact that there are cracks visible on his face.
About the tail thing you mentioned in the OP for KCM Naruto, I'm actually not so sure about that. It kinda seems like Naruto extracted 6-7 tails of Nine Tails' chakra before it expanded into a likeness of the Nine Tails with all of its tails. And KCM Naruto's RS might scale to Bijuudamas, since Gyuki questioned if he'd left a scar on the 3rd Raikage with a Bijuudama, implying he thought it was possible that 3A could withstand one. It also just makes sense that he would've been hit by it at some point in their long battles.
FKS Sasuke - 3T FKS Sasuke blocked a strike from and clashed with Mifune, meaning he should scale to Hanzo who's possibly 6-C (for now). MS Sasuke pierced Gaara's sand shield in generations. Yes, I know this didn't happen in the manga, but the fact that it happened in a cutscene approved to be canon means the scaling derived should be representative of how that fight would go. It also kinda seems like MS Sasuke tanks Gaara's sand burial for a moment at 1:54 before activating the Susanoo but it's a little vague. And I'm not sure exactly where it should be noted, but FKS Sasuke is stated to surpass Orochimaru, so that could be added in his AP justification.
WA Sasuke - It says he stabbed SM Kabuto's giant snake, but he hadn't entered SM at that point. I also think his Legged Susanoo should be possibly relative to KCM2 Naruto given that by the end of the fight, he seemed to have lost the Kurama cloak and was still relative to BSM Naruto with Jugo's CM, which should be a relative or inferior amp to SM as it's basically a less controlled version of the same form. And by the end of the Juubito fight, he's possibly relative to BSM Naruto with the Perfect Susanoo, which he DOES have, despite what many people think.
It's a tired argument but it bears repeating. It has literally all the same traits as a normal Perfect Susanoo. Diamond plated armor, samurai like shoulder pads, a long Tengu nose, Sasuke floating in the diamond on the forehead, said diamond being a pentagon rather than a hexagon (as with the Armored Susanoo), the blade being sharped far more normally than the wispy blade of the other Susanoo versions, and the increased size. Literally all signs point to it being the Perfect Susanoo rather than an Armored one. That said, why is he relative to BSM Naruto? Well I'll be perfectly honest, the evidence is a bit vague, but they do definitely seem to be portrayed as symbolic equals with how their chakras flare up together, they combine their Avatars, they attack in unison, and the databook talks about how the MAS allows both Susanoo and Nine Tails' powers to be utilized perfectly. It's not super concrete, which is why I suggest a possibly rating, but I do think it's enough to be noted on his profile.
WA Sakura - Considering she obviously scales above Base Tsunade, I think there's a good argument to be made for the statement on her profile meaning Base Byakugo Sakura~100H Tsunade. That seems to be at odds with Tsunade being stronger than even Base KCM2 Naruto, but I don't think the argument for that is the most solid considering she just knocked down a Susanoo CLONE (of which there were 25, meaning they should've been pretty weak individually), and didn't even damage it much. Aaaaaaalso EoS Sakura should honestly be 5-B but ig this isn't the right thread for that lol.
WA Kakashi - He's being downplayed pretty hard. There's the obvious fight with Rinnegan Obito which would upscale him, in which Obito shouldn't have been holding back, or else Kakashi would've been able to tell since he'd seen Obito fighting for like 15 chapters at this point. Besides that, he also damaged Obito and withstood many of his attacks before their one on one fight, despite Obito being bloodlusted at that point (as proven by him saying "Die...!" And preparing to strike him a final time with his shuriken before Kakashi's words halted him). For the injuring part, it's not TOO important since Naruto had given him over 3x his normal amount of chakra, but it does support him knowing Obito's limits as he'd felt his durability with his own two hands instead of just watching it, and he should upscale from 1/4th of that as he specified more than 3x, but no more than that (which might upscale him? I'm not sure as KCM2 Naruto's AP w/o the KA is kinda unclear in the sandbox. Some of the scalings point to him being 5.68 gigatons, some point to him being 21.5). As for how this makes sense when the V2 Jinchuriki were previously contending with him, Kakashi just could've gotten stronger via fighting. There was like 18 chapters of offscreen fighting between the Jinchuriki fight and the Obito fight, so it's entirely plausible, and it would cause no scaling issues.
Also this is a bit more of a side note, but Kakashi probably scales to Base Edo Minato since they tag teamed against BZ Obito for about 5 chapters and were shown to be similarly fatigued, Black Zetsu called both of them persistent, meaning they were both problems for him (AKA they're both strong enough to harm him, but not incapacitate him as he was still standing), and it was implied that they were going to do a combination attack with Rasengan and Chidori.
Yamato - The justification for him scaling to Naruto is kinda weak, and would also cause issues as that would mean Yamato~>Kakashi, which is definitely not the case considering multiple statements about Kakashi being the top jonin and just general narrative implications. And not that I necessarily disagree with the rating personally, but wouldn't him restraining 4T Naruto be due to Wood Style suppressing Bijuu chakra and be a LS feat anyways?
WA Guy - Uh it's a really messy subject but Base Guy kiiiiiinda seems to be relative to WM Obito, with how he feels the need to phase through all his attacks and Guy blocks him on multiple occasions. It doesn't super make sense considering he can't just go 7th Gate and instantly blitz and one shot Obito, but at the same time I'm not sure how one can look at all these feats and say he doesn't scale at all. You could maybe say he was in 1st or 2nd Gate as those don't cause any changes in physical appearance, and then it'd make more sense how 7th Gate Guy wouldn't kill him immediately, but I'm open to thoughts cause idrk what to think myself.
The databook states that 6th Gate Guy's Leaf Adamantine-Strength Whirlwind was strong enough to force Obito to phase through it. And considering this isn't an attack he used against the V2 Jinchuriki, it's consistent. And maybe it'd be good to add him overpowering and one shotting Kisame to his 7th Gate key, considering Kisame had absorbed so much chakra from Bee that he collapsed, even though Bee still had a decent amount of chakra left after Kisame fused, meaning WA Kisame>Fused Kisame (minus the Samehada fusion, though I'm not sure if that actually amps AP). Which makes sense since Samehada was in contact with Bee for a prolonged period of time whereas Kisame just swiped chakra from him for moments at a time in their fight.
Hashirama - Base Hashirama's not superior to EMS Madara. He only clashed with 3T Madara, as proven by him activating the EMS in the next page. Both Madara and the databook says they're even, and we see that Hashirama was still in Sage Mode when he went to face Madara in cqc. The databook statement isn't just referring to ninjutsu either, considering it's the caption to a a taijutsu exchange. Plus, we see at the end of the battle that Hashirama is significantly more wounded than Madara despite having his insane auto healing. So even IF Base Hashirama beat Madara, it'd be due to winning the war of attrition, not an advantage in physicals. It's also supported by the fact that when Blind Madara receives Sage Mode, he becomes on par with his EMS self. Considering Madara had Hashirama cells amping him, it's not a stretch for him to be close to 3T Madara, so him reaching SM Hashirama's level makes sense as 3T Madara~Base Hashirama. I'm also a bit doubtful of Base Hashirama~Kurama considering there are 2 statements for Kurama~Perfect Susanoo.
Tobirama - I'm not so sure about Tobirama~EMS Sasuke. For one, Sasuke didn't even have the Sharingan out, so that'd just pit Tobirama above Base Sasuke at best, and sweating cause of someone suddenly flexing their chakra doesn't automatically mean they're on your level. Plus, there's evidence for EMS Sasuke>Tobirama, as there are multiple statements about Naruto and Sasuke being "the main act" against Juubito rather than Dazed KCM Minato or Tobirama, and Naruto said he and Sasuke would have to take the lead against Juubito if the Edo Hokage couldn't regenerate, meaning in stats they're superior. And Madara did say he'd be more careful about just taking attacks right before Tobirama attacked him. Honestly I think upscaling from Hiruzen is the most concrete scaling he has. If anything he could be at least Sannin level+, possibly MKCM level.
Hiruzen - Mostly agreed, I'd just add that the fanbook directly states Enma is reputed as the strongest summon. Could also add him stalemating Guruguru.
MINATOOOOOOOO - Time for the main event. Get ready for double the length of everything I've wrote so far talking about why he's being massively downplayed and needs to be upgraded 3 tiers and we gotta extend the thread by 10 pages just for him-wait. He possibly scales to the same tier as SM Hashirama and DMS Kakashi? Did Christmas come early?? Either way, I'm simultaneously very pleased and slightly disappointed that I don't get to flex my Minato defense skills (at least as hard as I expected). I DO still have some things to add though since his AP justification is pretty weak atm, and apparently he's either Sannin or KCM tier.
Honestly don't really think the implications of Minato being stronger than Hiruzen or the strongest is the Hokage stuff is very necessary as there's much more direct statements for it. Like Kakashi and Naruto thinking Minato was unsurpassed in present day, and the databook supporting this notion. This wasn't very relevant in the last CRT I brought it up in since the characters Kakashi had knowledge on were only 7-B, but since they're 6-C now it's quite relevant. Also Kakashi knows 7th Gate Guy, though idk if he's gonna have one key for the whole series like he does currently (really don't think he should). And the databook statement about Naruto being the only shinobi who can surpass Minato should include Pain considering he'd been introduced at that point and his power had been shown a decent bit in his battle with Jiraiya. Which is also a big part of why I find SM Naruto>Minato sus as this statement was before Naruto even got Sage Mode.
Jiraiya also thought everyone paled in comparison to Minato and that his capacity as a ninja was unparalleled, which as we've seen with Itachi, means combat ability. In the raws he also just straight up says Minato was the best shinobi of all time (なんせあやつは忍としての器は歴代一だった･･･), and he should know Prime Hiruzen's capabilities as his long time student. At bare minimum, it for sure means Minato>SM Jiraiya/Hanzo. Ay's statement also doesn't just put Minato above Ay, as he said NO shinobi could surpass him, so that'd include everyone he knows of like the 3rd Raikage, FKS Sasuke, Mei, and Kinkaku and Ginkaku.
As far as Edo Minato goes, the Minato~Kakashi thing I mentioned earlier applies, and SM Minato should be >Kakashi/Obito via pure scaling and also because he was really concerned about his SM Rasengan hitting Kakashi despite knowing Kakashi's strength very well via fighting alongside him for an extended period of time and Kakashi was worried enough to use Kamui on it. And despite warping it upon contact, he was still significantly damaged. For his durability...well....
Ok I'm not REALLY gonna try scaling his durability to Low 5-B, but it is pretty impressive and should probably be mentioned with something like "At least Island level, possibly far higher (withstood a kick from Pre-God Tree Jūbi Jinchūriki Madara, though it's unclear how much power he was using). Also...Minato extracted Kurama from himself...and it's stated to extract a Bijuu you momentarily need to output power equal to them...So...idk how that would apply to AP but it's worth talking about.
I'm fine with KCM Minato's rating, but not with his scaling. Even though it's only an ornamental change as there's no numerical difference, KCM Minato should definitely scale to BSM Naruto as Kurama stated he's a powerful support for him, they combined their jutsu (which is even used as justification on its own for Yamato), they knocked Juubito's chakra arms back a similar amount, and they were knocked back an equal distance by the explosion, showcasing relative durability (if anything, Minato's Avatar seems to be slightly less fizzled than Naruto's). I think it's pretty clear that they're portrayed as rivals. It also doesn't make much sense to assume KCM Minato's equal to KCM2 Naruto when his base is obviously far stronger. He's even rated as potentially higher than KCM Naruto atm. So it makes sense for KCM Minato to be significantly stronger than KCM2 Naruto.
His feats are better than KCM2 Naruto's too. He slashed through Rinnegan Obito like butter despite him tanking attacks from KCM2 Naruto. When he gave chakra to Naruto, he powered the shinobi alliance significantly more than Naruto. You could say this is because they combined their chakra, but considering Kurama needed to borrow chakra for Naruto to even enter KCM2, it's doubtful if he even powered them with his own chakra (yes Bee said he sensed two Nine Tails, but if Minato lent stamina to Naruto and Naruto converted it into his own chakra it would have his chakra signature, kinda like how Fused Kisame probably doesn't have Bee's chakra signature). And even while mentally nerfed, he tanked kicks from Unstable Juubito. Plus, in the feat where he showed relativity to BSM Naruto, he showed a feat probably better than anything KCM2 Naruto did, knocking away Juubito's chakra arms, which were strong enough to destroy Hashirama's Deity Gates and the Four Crimson Rays Formation. Not necessarily saying he scales above the Juubi, just showing a precedence for chakra arms being really strong, and it is possible he scales above those chakra arms, cause it's the chakra arms' squeezing force that negged the barrier, which Minato didn't overpower (and it took multiple of them to destroy the Deity Gates/Barrier, while Minato only overpowered them individually).
Tsunade - Like I talked about, don't really think she scales to Madara's HS.
Danzo - He does somewhat scale to MS Sasuke physically so if Sasuke's scaled to 6-C, Danzo should too.
Jiraiya - Like I mentioned earlier, I think SM Jiraiya~Base Orochimaru/Tsunade. This is probably the most controversial part of my whole comment so I'll try to support it as well as possible.
- First of all, there's really no reason for the databook statement that says Jiraiya~Orochimaru to exclude Sage Mode from Jiraiya's arsenal, as it's something he can easily use in battle (it literally took him half a chapter to enter it against Pain). Sure, we didn't know about it at the time, but there's a lot of abilities Jiraiya AND Orochimaru hadn't shown at that point, like a ton of Jiraiya's weird frog jutsu and Oral Rebirth. So do those not count in the databook's objective assessment of their strength? I'd think they do, and even more, the databook hypes up Jiraiya's "true strength" twice on the same page, which could easily have been referring to Sage Mode
- When Jiraiya entered Sage Mode, he performed a greater feat than his base self, then Pain commented that Jiraiya and Orochimaru both have unique powers, basically comparing the two. There's really no reason for Kishimoto to have Pain make this statement right when Jiraiya goes Sage Mode unless it's to compare him to Orochimaru. Jiraiya had used plenty of unique ninjutsu in base prior to this moment, and Pain could've talked about that at any time, but Kishimoto chose specifically to wait for this
- After the fight, Obito commented that SM Jiraiya must've lived up to his reputation, which is being comparable to the other Sannin and Gokage. The raws make this comparison even clearer (さすが三忍の自来也といったところか), as he specifically mentions Jiraiya's title as a Sannin as why his performance was expected
- There is also that whole Orochimaru+Jiraiya could've beaten Pain implication which makes more sense if Orochimaru's on par with Jiraiya than if he's far weaker, but ik it's been discussed before and deemed too vague, so I'll just say that it at least provides minor supporting evidence
- Tsunade and Hiruzen scaling to Ay makes more sense if they're relative to SM Jiraiya, considering Ay scales to KCM Naruto who would neg a Base Jiraiya level character given there are two large power gaps there (KCM>>PA SM and SM>>Base)
- Orochimaru tanked an ST from FP Tendo, who is far far far stronger than Base Jiraiya, even being above SM Naruto
- Armless Orochimaru gave 4T Naruto a decent fight, who's stronger than Base Jiraiya. Sure Orochimaru isn't AS strong as Naruto, but he easily tanked the explosion of Naruto powering up, briefly restrained his chakra arm long enough to escape into another body, knocked Naruto back with a mere punch, defended against his strongest attack, and slammed Naruto hundreds of meters away. These aren't feats you accomplish when you're far weaker than someone that almost died to your opponent. Especially since Jiraiya fought a weaker Naruto, given that he was still a kid back then
- Naruto and Sasuke recently surpassing their Sannin mentors supports their relativity as well. SM Naruto>SM Jiraiya obviously, and Sasuke had just surpassed Orochimaru at the FKS, then they clashed at the end of the arc and were equals. Sure, Sasuke did get stronger from the FKS to the end of the arc, but Naruto also should've gotten fighting amps against Pain and Sasuke's development mostly seemed to be with his Susanoo, as Danzo kept up with him physically both at the start and end of the fight.
- Danzo showed some relativity to MS Sasuke and even damaged his Susanoo, yet he's consistently portrayed as a Sannin victim. Ebisu and Hiruzen thought no one in the village could defeat Orochimaru, Jiraiya and Tsunade were Hokage candidates before Danzo, Jiraiya thought Tsunade was the only option and even said no one can match her in battle, Orochimaru called him senile (which in this context should mean showing weaknesses of old age), Danzo felt the need to hide his machinations from Tsunade meaning he thought she could stop them, the databook states he was willing to sacrifice the Hokage and we know he didn't want to get rid of her yet he didn't, the Sannin were called the strongest ninja (in P1 or the war? Kinda unclear), and Danzo thought he could never catch up to Hiruzen. Danzo doing anything to a character equal to SM Naruto is far more consistent if he was right below SM Jiraiya than if he was below Base Jiraiya
- FKS Sasuke just surpassed Orochimaru, so Oro should at least be stronger than 3T Sasuke, who pierced V1 Ay with a Chidori
- 3T Sasuke also clashed with Mifune, who's in the same ballpark as Hanzo, who's probably stronger than Base Jiraiya as he was so shook by the idea that someone had killed Hanzo that he ejected Gamatora in case of his death and knew he had to go Sage Mode from the get go.
- Orochimaru>>Hebi Sasuke, and even BoS Sasuke is stated to be in another league from 3T Naruto, who with just one more tail brought Base Jiraiya to near death. Obviously it's not just 1 tail stronger since it's V2, but I'd still argue Orochimaru has a higher assertion than Jiraiya by quite a bit
-Kabuto stated that he only surpassed Orochimaru with Sage Mode, meaning Orochimaru should be >Base WA Kabuto. Given the huge difference between SM Kabuto and SM Jiraiya, anyone who learns Toad Sage Mode is either hugely missing out or Orochimaru>>Base Jiraiya
There are definitely more arguments, but I think I've gotten my point across. There's a plethora of things comparing SM Jiraiya to Orochimaru, scalings that Orochimaru/Tsunade/Hiruzen have above Base Jiraiya, and the Sannin (whatever form of Jiraiya that means) scaling to characters that should be way above Base Jiraiya. If there was just a few pieces of evidence, you could chalk it up to outliers, but with this much, it's just a consistency. And really, there shouldn't even need to be such a high preponderance of evidence for it, considering Base Jiraiya~Orochimaru/Tsunade and SM Jiraiya~Orochimaru/Tsunade should be equal interpretations before looking at the evidence. There's really not much directly pointing to the fact that the statements for Sannin relativity are referring to Base Jiraiya. It's just an assumption a majority of the fanbase agreed on (although a good amount are switching over to the SM Jiraiya meta these days).
Itachi - You know it, I know it, we all know it. Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke, and there's no empirical basis for him going all out, even physically. Sure, it's possible, but if Itachi was far stronger than Sasuke, his performance would still be what it was like. There's just no real way to say, so I think at least 7-A makes a lot more sense, especially since Generations states that Sasuke's strength was APPROACHING non-Susanoo Itachi's (which was right after he used Kirin, so could even be referring to that and not Sasuke himself), and says that his skill far exceeded Sasuke's. Not to mention the fact that Itachi>>30% Itachi>Kakashi<AS KM0 Naruto>BoS KM0 Naruto = 100 Megatons. As for his Susanoo, I'd suggest adding the statements of it being invincible and something no opponent was worthy of. Also this is a weird statement but uh maybe it includes like the Raikage since he doesn't have a Kekkai Genkai or anything that makes him special besides his stats and chakra level? And Sasuke vs Itachi is called the ultimate battle/a battle of the highest order after SM Jiraiya vs Pain took place, meaning it should be a battle of stronger levels, which would mostly be due to Itachi.
For Edo Itachi, his Susanoo feats are against Base Kabuto, not SM Kabuto, much like with EMS Sasuke.
Gaara - He did withstand Juubidara kicking Minato into him, which was enough to cause Minato to scream in pain (unclear if he still had SM activated at that point, but he's 6-C either way), so maybe he has 6-C physical durability in the WA.
Ay - Base Ay scaling to a Hiruzen level character is pretty sus considering V2 Ay is reputed below him. Really don't think breaking a single fist of hundreds should fully scale you to someone. Anyways, Guruguru only gets his rating from scaling to the Kage who are above Base Ay and scaling to Hiruzen with his ninjutsu which Ay doesn't scale to. Just sus all around. His durability can scale to that level tho, that's cool.
Bee - No problem with PA/FKS Bee's scaling, but the idea that he's just as strong in the WA makes no sense. For reasons that are currently on his profile in fact. Sure, him scaling to FP KCM Naruto isn't very valid, but he still intercepted attacks from V1 Ay, overpowered him, and matched 3T Edo Itachi (and Fatigued KCM Naruto who's also 3T Itachi level) who should be above the Sannin at least. Base WA Bee's pretty clearly 6-C. This also applies to the other Edo Jinchuriki (not gonna list them individually).
Yagura - I don't think him being stronger than a young Kisame and Zabuza really means much. Don't know why that'd have to be referring to his base either considering he was known for mastering his Bijuu's power. Also don't really see why V2 Yagura would scale to V2 Bee.
Mei - Her melting Sasuke's Susanoo would also be nice to add as it's more quantifiable, due to Sasuke never holding back like Madara probably did.
Orochimaru - Like I implied in the Jiraiya section, I think Armless Orochimaru should downscale from 4T Naruto, as a 7-B+ would not be able to affect a 6-C character in any way shape or form. Although considering Naruto gets 6-C from Base Jiraiya who I'm proposing doesn't scale to the other Sannin, that does create a bit of a question of where that would even scale Orochimaru. And there are a couple different ways Base Jiraiya could be scaled outside of to the Sannin. Above Base Kisame (I have serious qualms with P1 Kisame scaling to P2 Kisame but that could suffice for now), maybe downscales to baseline 7-A from Base PA Naruto or from 6-C considering Sage Mode should be no more than a 20x amp (even it being >10x isn't currently accepted among many reasons, one of which being that feats suggest it's not even THAT high, so I think downscaling from it being less than a 20x amp is a reasonable method), and the difference between baseline 7-A and 6-C is over 40x. Basically I'm saying Armless Orochimaru, Base Jiraiya, and 4T Naruto are probably At least 7-A. I do personally think there's a decent argument for Base Jiraiya being Bijuu level and Sannin level characters upscaling from that, but with the way things are scaled now I don't think that works too well.
Suigetsu - Ehhhh I think at most 6-C makes more sense considering Suigetsu sprung up out of the water which probably offguarded Bee and it's not like he actually damaged him at all.
Hanzo - At least High 7-A for scaling to/above 3T FKS Sasuke. Maybe not 6-C if SM Jiraiya~Orochimaru/Tsunade is accepted.
Sasori - Hm wonder if Iron Sand being the most feared Sunagakure weapon makes it stronger than Bijuudamas...Well that's a whole thing I don't really wanna get into, but I definitely need to talk about Sasori in general. He's been downplayed for too long. From the point where Sakura started scaling to Sasori, she was mentally amped the whole time, so he really has no antifeats putting him at such a horrendously low level. And it's abundantly clear via feats that she was far stronger than normal, as his Iron Sand, which is accepted as 6-C, was knocked around by Sakura. So Sasori should straight up be 6-C, given that he beat the 3KK in a difficult fight (which could've been dismissed as due to just poison if his Sakura antifeats were valid, but since they're not there's not much reason not to scale him), and his Human Puppet and 100 Puppets are implied to be above the 3KK. He also scales above Prime Chiyo (砂隠れの里でも歴代最強の傀儡師としてその名を残したサソリ。) even w/o the 3KK puppet (given that most people didn't know he'd killed him and still thought he was the strongest), who fought Prime Hanzo many times, who's High 7-A to possibly 6-C. Hiruko might be 7-A tho, given that his best feat is repelling a shuriken from KN0 Naruto and was one shot by non-resolve amped Sakura (which should upscale her >KN0 Naruto btw).
Kakuzu - He says his body is straight up immune to physical attacks in the raws (そうだオレにはどんな物理攻撃も通じない) and it kiiiiinda seems like Matatabi used a Bijuudama at some point in her fight against Kakuzu and Hidan, so Diamond Morph>Bijuudamas potentially?
Kokuo - Withstood a slap from BM Bee, so could say that instead of just comparable to Bee for durability.
Kurama - Like I mentioned earlier, I think Kurama~PS is more consistent than Kurama~Base Wood Golem, and would also like to add that KCM2 Naruto antifeats aren't particularly relevant in scaling him since he's 32x larger than 50% Kurama (ur the goat for that Arc) and since he's a being of pure chakra, that's probably a proportionate strength increase. Do find 50% Kurama~KCM2 Naruto questionable though, considering the Perfect Jinchuriki boost and his antifeats against WA SM Naruto (which I still think are valid) and even deathbed Kushina reacted to him. It's not a huge deal but I think it's a bit of an unnecessary leap in logic.
Mifune - Relative to 3T FKS Sasuke (ik Sasuke blocked the attack, but he felt the need to coat his sword in lightning chakra and the way the swords bounced off each other seems like relativity).
MS Sasuke~SM Naruto
Itachi>MS Sasuke
AS Naruto~>Kakashi
Base Rasenshuriken - At least 7-A, possibly
KN0 Rasenshuriken - Uhhhhhhh this is a bit awkward lol cause I actually pushed for RS~Minato due to it not having any real antifeats (I talked about why the Pain antifeats are pretty weak) and being extremely hyped up to the point of it potentially being able to one shot anyone as far as the 3rd DB, but if it stayed and Minato scales in the 5.68 tier it'd mean KN0 RS~Minato>SM Naruto's RS which is notagooda (or uh ig Naruto got some extra good Kurama chakra in that fight lol). I actually have some stuff to say regarding people scaling to SM Naruto's RS tho so maybe it's fine.
Base FKS/WA Sasuke - At least 7-A
Base PA/FKS/WA Naruto~Base FKS Sasuke
SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken - More than a 2x amp as it's stated to exponentially increase your attack power (more on that later when I talk about SM Naruto)
MS Sasuke's Susanoo~SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken (likely)
Shinra Tensei isn't stronger than SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken
KCM2 Naruto's Rasenshuriken - same story as with SM Naruto
Also not something that's gone through, but something that's gotten one staff's approval and is relevant is Rasengan Barrage/Planetary Rasengan being more than a 2x amp. https://vsbattles.com/threads/rasengan-barrage-is-more-than-a-2x-amp.154041/
Alright with that covered, time to get into the real stuff. Gonna bold the characters who are especially important for one reason or another.
Pre-WA Naruto - It's kinda hurting me to say this cause ik how much of a change it'd make and how much hassle that'd probably be, but honestly I don't think people should scale to SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken calc (except Naruto's RS in higher forms and people who directly scale to the RS like Itachi's Susanoo). I can see how that conclusion was reached. Pain dissipated it, and Naruto's durability, which characters scale to, is apparently enough to withstand the RS. But for Pain, like I talked about in one of the previous CRTs, he only scales to it as a projectile, not it's real strength. Kinda like how KCM2 Naruto scales above the Bijuu for knocking away their Bijuudama, but he doesn't scale to the full power of their Bijuudamas. And the databook statement doesn't really mean what it sounds like at first glance.
Yes, he became tough enough to withstand the blowback of the Rasenshuriken, but that's not the same as the full yield, or anywhere near it. As seen when he used it against Kakuzu, after slamming it into him, it knocked Kakuzu dozens of meters away BEFORE exploding, and we saw that Naruto himself didn't get touched by the explosion. So the only thing SM Naruto's durability scales to is the initial blowback/recoil of slamming the RS into someone, not its actual power. Which makes sense, since Kakuzu's durability>Kakashi's durability<~Naruto's durability, and yet Kakuzu was far more damaged by the RS than Naruto. I think a good analogy is that the Rasenshuriken is like a powerful gun. You might be able to withstand the recoil of the gun firing, which has enough force to harm a lot of people so it's still noteworthy to do so, but that doesn't mean you can withstand the bullet hitting you.
It also wouldn't work because Pain can physically damage SM Naruto, yet even Base Naruto's Rasenshuriken can harm characters like SM Jiraiya and Pain according to the databook (idt the "certain death" statement is very solid given the way it's written and it being in one of the bolded sections which are often hyperbolic, but "no one can withstand its impact" is pretty direct, and is part of the actual description of the jutsu). Add on the fact that it's exponentially stronger than the Rasengan and is probably stronger than the Rasengan Barrage which is >2x stronger than SM Naruto normally, and yeah I think the Rasenshuriken is kind of in a scaling vacuum pre-WA. Although that wouldn't actually change the ratings for anyone that scales to it in the sandbox, would just mean they scale to baseline 6-C instead (and also SM Naruto's RS would be >8.6 Gigatons), and that's actually kinda good since then the Gokage would scale to the same value as the Sannin which lines up with that statement.
I also have doubts whether SM Naruto was ever meant to surpass Minato, even at that point. Literally 10 chapters after the statement, Minato talked about Obito being superior to Pain and Naruto needing Nine Tails power to defeat him. More elaboration on problems with SM Naruto>Pre-PA Minato in the Minato section. I don't have a HUGE problem with it if it's not actually used to downscale Minato but I still find it kinda iffy.
WA Naruto - Something that I think is important to keep in mind for both SM and KCM Naruto is that for much of the war, Naruto was weakened as he'd made 13 shadow clones, which the OP even notes. Not only does it evenly distribute chakra between you and your clones, but Kakashi even specifically notes that each one's chakra is WEAKER depending on the number of clones, meaning it's definitely a power nerf and not just a stamina one. So I think for all of Naruto's feats/antifeats from when he summons the clones to when they're dissipated, there should be some mention of him being nerfed (ik it's mentioned at some points, but a lot of the times, it's not). This also applies to characters scaling to nerfed KCM Naruto like 3T Edo Itachi and all the characters that fought his clones. WA SM Naruto's AP justification should probably include the fact that Hashirama said Naruto's RS gave him the chance to seal Madara, implying it damaged him, in addition to the fact that there are cracks visible on his face.
About the tail thing you mentioned in the OP for KCM Naruto, I'm actually not so sure about that. It kinda seems like Naruto extracted 6-7 tails of Nine Tails' chakra before it expanded into a likeness of the Nine Tails with all of its tails. And KCM Naruto's RS might scale to Bijuudamas, since Gyuki questioned if he'd left a scar on the 3rd Raikage with a Bijuudama, implying he thought it was possible that 3A could withstand one. It also just makes sense that he would've been hit by it at some point in their long battles.
FKS Sasuke - 3T FKS Sasuke blocked a strike from and clashed with Mifune, meaning he should scale to Hanzo who's possibly 6-C (for now). MS Sasuke pierced Gaara's sand shield in generations. Yes, I know this didn't happen in the manga, but the fact that it happened in a cutscene approved to be canon means the scaling derived should be representative of how that fight would go. It also kinda seems like MS Sasuke tanks Gaara's sand burial for a moment at 1:54 before activating the Susanoo but it's a little vague. And I'm not sure exactly where it should be noted, but FKS Sasuke is stated to surpass Orochimaru, so that could be added in his AP justification.
WA Sasuke - It says he stabbed SM Kabuto's giant snake, but he hadn't entered SM at that point. I also think his Legged Susanoo should be possibly relative to KCM2 Naruto given that by the end of the fight, he seemed to have lost the Kurama cloak and was still relative to BSM Naruto with Jugo's CM, which should be a relative or inferior amp to SM as it's basically a less controlled version of the same form. And by the end of the Juubito fight, he's possibly relative to BSM Naruto with the Perfect Susanoo, which he DOES have, despite what many people think.
It's a tired argument but it bears repeating. It has literally all the same traits as a normal Perfect Susanoo. Diamond plated armor, samurai like shoulder pads, a long Tengu nose, Sasuke floating in the diamond on the forehead, said diamond being a pentagon rather than a hexagon (as with the Armored Susanoo), the blade being sharped far more normally than the wispy blade of the other Susanoo versions, and the increased size. Literally all signs point to it being the Perfect Susanoo rather than an Armored one. That said, why is he relative to BSM Naruto? Well I'll be perfectly honest, the evidence is a bit vague, but they do definitely seem to be portrayed as symbolic equals with how their chakras flare up together, they combine their Avatars, they attack in unison, and the databook talks about how the MAS allows both Susanoo and Nine Tails' powers to be utilized perfectly. It's not super concrete, which is why I suggest a possibly rating, but I do think it's enough to be noted on his profile.
WA Sakura - Considering she obviously scales above Base Tsunade, I think there's a good argument to be made for the statement on her profile meaning Base Byakugo Sakura~100H Tsunade. That seems to be at odds with Tsunade being stronger than even Base KCM2 Naruto, but I don't think the argument for that is the most solid considering she just knocked down a Susanoo CLONE (of which there were 25, meaning they should've been pretty weak individually), and didn't even damage it much. Aaaaaaalso EoS Sakura should honestly be 5-B but ig this isn't the right thread for that lol.
WA Kakashi - He's being downplayed pretty hard. There's the obvious fight with Rinnegan Obito which would upscale him, in which Obito shouldn't have been holding back, or else Kakashi would've been able to tell since he'd seen Obito fighting for like 15 chapters at this point. Besides that, he also damaged Obito and withstood many of his attacks before their one on one fight, despite Obito being bloodlusted at that point (as proven by him saying "Die...!" And preparing to strike him a final time with his shuriken before Kakashi's words halted him). For the injuring part, it's not TOO important since Naruto had given him over 3x his normal amount of chakra, but it does support him knowing Obito's limits as he'd felt his durability with his own two hands instead of just watching it, and he should upscale from 1/4th of that as he specified more than 3x, but no more than that (which might upscale him? I'm not sure as KCM2 Naruto's AP w/o the KA is kinda unclear in the sandbox. Some of the scalings point to him being 5.68 gigatons, some point to him being 21.5). As for how this makes sense when the V2 Jinchuriki were previously contending with him, Kakashi just could've gotten stronger via fighting. There was like 18 chapters of offscreen fighting between the Jinchuriki fight and the Obito fight, so it's entirely plausible, and it would cause no scaling issues.
Also this is a bit more of a side note, but Kakashi probably scales to Base Edo Minato since they tag teamed against BZ Obito for about 5 chapters and were shown to be similarly fatigued, Black Zetsu called both of them persistent, meaning they were both problems for him (AKA they're both strong enough to harm him, but not incapacitate him as he was still standing), and it was implied that they were going to do a combination attack with Rasengan and Chidori.
Yamato - The justification for him scaling to Naruto is kinda weak, and would also cause issues as that would mean Yamato~>Kakashi, which is definitely not the case considering multiple statements about Kakashi being the top jonin and just general narrative implications. And not that I necessarily disagree with the rating personally, but wouldn't him restraining 4T Naruto be due to Wood Style suppressing Bijuu chakra and be a LS feat anyways?
WA Guy - Uh it's a really messy subject but Base Guy kiiiiiinda seems to be relative to WM Obito, with how he feels the need to phase through all his attacks and Guy blocks him on multiple occasions. It doesn't super make sense considering he can't just go 7th Gate and instantly blitz and one shot Obito, but at the same time I'm not sure how one can look at all these feats and say he doesn't scale at all. You could maybe say he was in 1st or 2nd Gate as those don't cause any changes in physical appearance, and then it'd make more sense how 7th Gate Guy wouldn't kill him immediately, but I'm open to thoughts cause idrk what to think myself.
The databook states that 6th Gate Guy's Leaf Adamantine-Strength Whirlwind was strong enough to force Obito to phase through it. And considering this isn't an attack he used against the V2 Jinchuriki, it's consistent. And maybe it'd be good to add him overpowering and one shotting Kisame to his 7th Gate key, considering Kisame had absorbed so much chakra from Bee that he collapsed, even though Bee still had a decent amount of chakra left after Kisame fused, meaning WA Kisame>Fused Kisame (minus the Samehada fusion, though I'm not sure if that actually amps AP). Which makes sense since Samehada was in contact with Bee for a prolonged period of time whereas Kisame just swiped chakra from him for moments at a time in their fight.
Hashirama - Base Hashirama's not superior to EMS Madara. He only clashed with 3T Madara, as proven by him activating the EMS in the next page. Both Madara and the databook says they're even, and we see that Hashirama was still in Sage Mode when he went to face Madara in cqc. The databook statement isn't just referring to ninjutsu either, considering it's the caption to a a taijutsu exchange. Plus, we see at the end of the battle that Hashirama is significantly more wounded than Madara despite having his insane auto healing. So even IF Base Hashirama beat Madara, it'd be due to winning the war of attrition, not an advantage in physicals. It's also supported by the fact that when Blind Madara receives Sage Mode, he becomes on par with his EMS self. Considering Madara had Hashirama cells amping him, it's not a stretch for him to be close to 3T Madara, so him reaching SM Hashirama's level makes sense as 3T Madara~Base Hashirama. I'm also a bit doubtful of Base Hashirama~Kurama considering there are 2 statements for Kurama~Perfect Susanoo.
Tobirama - I'm not so sure about Tobirama~EMS Sasuke. For one, Sasuke didn't even have the Sharingan out, so that'd just pit Tobirama above Base Sasuke at best, and sweating cause of someone suddenly flexing their chakra doesn't automatically mean they're on your level. Plus, there's evidence for EMS Sasuke>Tobirama, as there are multiple statements about Naruto and Sasuke being "the main act" against Juubito rather than Dazed KCM Minato or Tobirama, and Naruto said he and Sasuke would have to take the lead against Juubito if the Edo Hokage couldn't regenerate, meaning in stats they're superior. And Madara did say he'd be more careful about just taking attacks right before Tobirama attacked him. Honestly I think upscaling from Hiruzen is the most concrete scaling he has. If anything he could be at least Sannin level+, possibly MKCM level.
Hiruzen - Mostly agreed, I'd just add that the fanbook directly states Enma is reputed as the strongest summon. Could also add him stalemating Guruguru.
MINATOOOOOOOO - Time for the main event. Get ready for double the length of everything I've wrote so far talking about why he's being massively downplayed and needs to be upgraded 3 tiers and we gotta extend the thread by 10 pages just for him-wait. He possibly scales to the same tier as SM Hashirama and DMS Kakashi? Did Christmas come early?? Either way, I'm simultaneously very pleased and slightly disappointed that I don't get to flex my Minato defense skills (at least as hard as I expected). I DO still have some things to add though since his AP justification is pretty weak atm, and apparently he's either Sannin or KCM tier.
Honestly don't really think the implications of Minato being stronger than Hiruzen or the strongest is the Hokage stuff is very necessary as there's much more direct statements for it. Like Kakashi and Naruto thinking Minato was unsurpassed in present day, and the databook supporting this notion. This wasn't very relevant in the last CRT I brought it up in since the characters Kakashi had knowledge on were only 7-B, but since they're 6-C now it's quite relevant. Also Kakashi knows 7th Gate Guy, though idk if he's gonna have one key for the whole series like he does currently (really don't think he should). And the databook statement about Naruto being the only shinobi who can surpass Minato should include Pain considering he'd been introduced at that point and his power had been shown a decent bit in his battle with Jiraiya. Which is also a big part of why I find SM Naruto>Minato sus as this statement was before Naruto even got Sage Mode.
Jiraiya also thought everyone paled in comparison to Minato and that his capacity as a ninja was unparalleled, which as we've seen with Itachi, means combat ability. In the raws he also just straight up says Minato was the best shinobi of all time (なんせあやつは忍としての器は歴代一だった･･･), and he should know Prime Hiruzen's capabilities as his long time student. At bare minimum, it for sure means Minato>SM Jiraiya/Hanzo. Ay's statement also doesn't just put Minato above Ay, as he said NO shinobi could surpass him, so that'd include everyone he knows of like the 3rd Raikage, FKS Sasuke, Mei, and Kinkaku and Ginkaku.
As far as Edo Minato goes, the Minato~Kakashi thing I mentioned earlier applies, and SM Minato should be >Kakashi/Obito via pure scaling and also because he was really concerned about his SM Rasengan hitting Kakashi despite knowing Kakashi's strength very well via fighting alongside him for an extended period of time and Kakashi was worried enough to use Kamui on it. And despite warping it upon contact, he was still significantly damaged. For his durability...well....
Ok I'm not REALLY gonna try scaling his durability to Low 5-B, but it is pretty impressive and should probably be mentioned with something like "At least Island level, possibly far higher (withstood a kick from Pre-God Tree Jūbi Jinchūriki Madara, though it's unclear how much power he was using). Also...Minato extracted Kurama from himself...and it's stated to extract a Bijuu you momentarily need to output power equal to them...So...idk how that would apply to AP but it's worth talking about.I'm fine with KCM Minato's rating, but not with his scaling. Even though it's only an ornamental change as there's no numerical difference, KCM Minato should definitely scale to BSM Naruto as Kurama stated he's a powerful support for him, they combined their jutsu (which is even used as justification on its own for Yamato), they knocked Juubito's chakra arms back a similar amount, and they were knocked back an equal distance by the explosion, showcasing relative durability (if anything, Minato's Avatar seems to be slightly less fizzled than Naruto's). I think it's pretty clear that they're portrayed as rivals. It also doesn't make much sense to assume KCM Minato's equal to KCM2 Naruto when his base is obviously far stronger. He's even rated as potentially higher than KCM Naruto atm. So it makes sense for KCM Minato to be significantly stronger than KCM2 Naruto.
His feats are better than KCM2 Naruto's too. He slashed through Rinnegan Obito like butter despite him tanking attacks from KCM2 Naruto. When he gave chakra to Naruto, he powered the shinobi alliance significantly more than Naruto. You could say this is because they combined their chakra, but considering Kurama needed to borrow chakra for Naruto to even enter KCM2, it's doubtful if he even powered them with his own chakra (yes Bee said he sensed two Nine Tails, but if Minato lent stamina to Naruto and Naruto converted it into his own chakra it would have his chakra signature, kinda like how Fused Kisame probably doesn't have Bee's chakra signature). And even while mentally nerfed, he tanked kicks from Unstable Juubito. Plus, in the feat where he showed relativity to BSM Naruto, he showed a feat probably better than anything KCM2 Naruto did, knocking away Juubito's chakra arms, which were strong enough to destroy Hashirama's Deity Gates and the Four Crimson Rays Formation. Not necessarily saying he scales above the Juubi, just showing a precedence for chakra arms being really strong, and it is possible he scales above those chakra arms, cause it's the chakra arms' squeezing force that negged the barrier, which Minato didn't overpower (and it took multiple of them to destroy the Deity Gates/Barrier, while Minato only overpowered them individually).
Tsunade - Like I talked about, don't really think she scales to Madara's HS.
Danzo - He does somewhat scale to MS Sasuke physically so if Sasuke's scaled to 6-C, Danzo should too.
Jiraiya - Like I mentioned earlier, I think SM Jiraiya~Base Orochimaru/Tsunade. This is probably the most controversial part of my whole comment so I'll try to support it as well as possible.
- First of all, there's really no reason for the databook statement that says Jiraiya~Orochimaru to exclude Sage Mode from Jiraiya's arsenal, as it's something he can easily use in battle (it literally took him half a chapter to enter it against Pain). Sure, we didn't know about it at the time, but there's a lot of abilities Jiraiya AND Orochimaru hadn't shown at that point, like a ton of Jiraiya's weird frog jutsu and Oral Rebirth. So do those not count in the databook's objective assessment of their strength? I'd think they do, and even more, the databook hypes up Jiraiya's "true strength" twice on the same page, which could easily have been referring to Sage Mode
- When Jiraiya entered Sage Mode, he performed a greater feat than his base self, then Pain commented that Jiraiya and Orochimaru both have unique powers, basically comparing the two. There's really no reason for Kishimoto to have Pain make this statement right when Jiraiya goes Sage Mode unless it's to compare him to Orochimaru. Jiraiya had used plenty of unique ninjutsu in base prior to this moment, and Pain could've talked about that at any time, but Kishimoto chose specifically to wait for this
- After the fight, Obito commented that SM Jiraiya must've lived up to his reputation, which is being comparable to the other Sannin and Gokage. The raws make this comparison even clearer (さすが三忍の自来也といったところか), as he specifically mentions Jiraiya's title as a Sannin as why his performance was expected
- There is also that whole Orochimaru+Jiraiya could've beaten Pain implication which makes more sense if Orochimaru's on par with Jiraiya than if he's far weaker, but ik it's been discussed before and deemed too vague, so I'll just say that it at least provides minor supporting evidence
- Tsunade and Hiruzen scaling to Ay makes more sense if they're relative to SM Jiraiya, considering Ay scales to KCM Naruto who would neg a Base Jiraiya level character given there are two large power gaps there (KCM>>PA SM and SM>>Base)
- Orochimaru tanked an ST from FP Tendo, who is far far far stronger than Base Jiraiya, even being above SM Naruto
- Armless Orochimaru gave 4T Naruto a decent fight, who's stronger than Base Jiraiya. Sure Orochimaru isn't AS strong as Naruto, but he easily tanked the explosion of Naruto powering up, briefly restrained his chakra arm long enough to escape into another body, knocked Naruto back with a mere punch, defended against his strongest attack, and slammed Naruto hundreds of meters away. These aren't feats you accomplish when you're far weaker than someone that almost died to your opponent. Especially since Jiraiya fought a weaker Naruto, given that he was still a kid back then
- Naruto and Sasuke recently surpassing their Sannin mentors supports their relativity as well. SM Naruto>SM Jiraiya obviously, and Sasuke had just surpassed Orochimaru at the FKS, then they clashed at the end of the arc and were equals. Sure, Sasuke did get stronger from the FKS to the end of the arc, but Naruto also should've gotten fighting amps against Pain and Sasuke's development mostly seemed to be with his Susanoo, as Danzo kept up with him physically both at the start and end of the fight.
- Danzo showed some relativity to MS Sasuke and even damaged his Susanoo, yet he's consistently portrayed as a Sannin victim. Ebisu and Hiruzen thought no one in the village could defeat Orochimaru, Jiraiya and Tsunade were Hokage candidates before Danzo, Jiraiya thought Tsunade was the only option and even said no one can match her in battle, Orochimaru called him senile (which in this context should mean showing weaknesses of old age), Danzo felt the need to hide his machinations from Tsunade meaning he thought she could stop them, the databook states he was willing to sacrifice the Hokage and we know he didn't want to get rid of her yet he didn't, the Sannin were called the strongest ninja (in P1 or the war? Kinda unclear), and Danzo thought he could never catch up to Hiruzen. Danzo doing anything to a character equal to SM Naruto is far more consistent if he was right below SM Jiraiya than if he was below Base Jiraiya
- FKS Sasuke just surpassed Orochimaru, so Oro should at least be stronger than 3T Sasuke, who pierced V1 Ay with a Chidori
- 3T Sasuke also clashed with Mifune, who's in the same ballpark as Hanzo, who's probably stronger than Base Jiraiya as he was so shook by the idea that someone had killed Hanzo that he ejected Gamatora in case of his death and knew he had to go Sage Mode from the get go.
- Orochimaru>>Hebi Sasuke, and even BoS Sasuke is stated to be in another league from 3T Naruto, who with just one more tail brought Base Jiraiya to near death. Obviously it's not just 1 tail stronger since it's V2, but I'd still argue Orochimaru has a higher assertion than Jiraiya by quite a bit
-Kabuto stated that he only surpassed Orochimaru with Sage Mode, meaning Orochimaru should be >Base WA Kabuto. Given the huge difference between SM Kabuto and SM Jiraiya, anyone who learns Toad Sage Mode is either hugely missing out or Orochimaru>>Base Jiraiya
There are definitely more arguments, but I think I've gotten my point across. There's a plethora of things comparing SM Jiraiya to Orochimaru, scalings that Orochimaru/Tsunade/Hiruzen have above Base Jiraiya, and the Sannin (whatever form of Jiraiya that means) scaling to characters that should be way above Base Jiraiya. If there was just a few pieces of evidence, you could chalk it up to outliers, but with this much, it's just a consistency. And really, there shouldn't even need to be such a high preponderance of evidence for it, considering Base Jiraiya~Orochimaru/Tsunade and SM Jiraiya~Orochimaru/Tsunade should be equal interpretations before looking at the evidence. There's really not much directly pointing to the fact that the statements for Sannin relativity are referring to Base Jiraiya. It's just an assumption a majority of the fanbase agreed on (although a good amount are switching over to the SM Jiraiya meta these days).
Itachi - You know it, I know it, we all know it. Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke, and there's no empirical basis for him going all out, even physically. Sure, it's possible, but if Itachi was far stronger than Sasuke, his performance would still be what it was like. There's just no real way to say, so I think at least 7-A makes a lot more sense, especially since Generations states that Sasuke's strength was APPROACHING non-Susanoo Itachi's (which was right after he used Kirin, so could even be referring to that and not Sasuke himself), and says that his skill far exceeded Sasuke's. Not to mention the fact that Itachi>>30% Itachi>Kakashi<AS KM0 Naruto>BoS KM0 Naruto = 100 Megatons. As for his Susanoo, I'd suggest adding the statements of it being invincible and something no opponent was worthy of. Also this is a weird statement but uh maybe it includes like the Raikage since he doesn't have a Kekkai Genkai or anything that makes him special besides his stats and chakra level? And Sasuke vs Itachi is called the ultimate battle/a battle of the highest order after SM Jiraiya vs Pain took place, meaning it should be a battle of stronger levels, which would mostly be due to Itachi.
For Edo Itachi, his Susanoo feats are against Base Kabuto, not SM Kabuto, much like with EMS Sasuke.
Gaara - He did withstand Juubidara kicking Minato into him, which was enough to cause Minato to scream in pain (unclear if he still had SM activated at that point, but he's 6-C either way), so maybe he has 6-C physical durability in the WA.
Ay - Base Ay scaling to a Hiruzen level character is pretty sus considering V2 Ay is reputed below him. Really don't think breaking a single fist of hundreds should fully scale you to someone. Anyways, Guruguru only gets his rating from scaling to the Kage who are above Base Ay and scaling to Hiruzen with his ninjutsu which Ay doesn't scale to. Just sus all around. His durability can scale to that level tho, that's cool.
Bee - No problem with PA/FKS Bee's scaling, but the idea that he's just as strong in the WA makes no sense. For reasons that are currently on his profile in fact. Sure, him scaling to FP KCM Naruto isn't very valid, but he still intercepted attacks from V1 Ay, overpowered him, and matched 3T Edo Itachi (and Fatigued KCM Naruto who's also 3T Itachi level) who should be above the Sannin at least. Base WA Bee's pretty clearly 6-C. This also applies to the other Edo Jinchuriki (not gonna list them individually).
Yagura - I don't think him being stronger than a young Kisame and Zabuza really means much. Don't know why that'd have to be referring to his base either considering he was known for mastering his Bijuu's power. Also don't really see why V2 Yagura would scale to V2 Bee.
Mei - Her melting Sasuke's Susanoo would also be nice to add as it's more quantifiable, due to Sasuke never holding back like Madara probably did.
Orochimaru - Like I implied in the Jiraiya section, I think Armless Orochimaru should downscale from 4T Naruto, as a 7-B+ would not be able to affect a 6-C character in any way shape or form. Although considering Naruto gets 6-C from Base Jiraiya who I'm proposing doesn't scale to the other Sannin, that does create a bit of a question of where that would even scale Orochimaru. And there are a couple different ways Base Jiraiya could be scaled outside of to the Sannin. Above Base Kisame (I have serious qualms with P1 Kisame scaling to P2 Kisame but that could suffice for now), maybe downscales to baseline 7-A from Base PA Naruto or from 6-C considering Sage Mode should be no more than a 20x amp (even it being >10x isn't currently accepted among many reasons, one of which being that feats suggest it's not even THAT high, so I think downscaling from it being less than a 20x amp is a reasonable method), and the difference between baseline 7-A and 6-C is over 40x. Basically I'm saying Armless Orochimaru, Base Jiraiya, and 4T Naruto are probably At least 7-A. I do personally think there's a decent argument for Base Jiraiya being Bijuu level and Sannin level characters upscaling from that, but with the way things are scaled now I don't think that works too well.
Suigetsu - Ehhhh I think at most 6-C makes more sense considering Suigetsu sprung up out of the water which probably offguarded Bee and it's not like he actually damaged him at all.
Hanzo - At least High 7-A for scaling to/above 3T FKS Sasuke. Maybe not 6-C if SM Jiraiya~Orochimaru/Tsunade is accepted.
Sasori - Hm wonder if Iron Sand being the most feared Sunagakure weapon makes it stronger than Bijuudamas...Well that's a whole thing I don't really wanna get into, but I definitely need to talk about Sasori in general. He's been downplayed for too long. From the point where Sakura started scaling to Sasori, she was mentally amped the whole time, so he really has no antifeats putting him at such a horrendously low level. And it's abundantly clear via feats that she was far stronger than normal, as his Iron Sand, which is accepted as 6-C, was knocked around by Sakura. So Sasori should straight up be 6-C, given that he beat the 3KK in a difficult fight (which could've been dismissed as due to just poison if his Sakura antifeats were valid, but since they're not there's not much reason not to scale him), and his Human Puppet and 100 Puppets are implied to be above the 3KK. He also scales above Prime Chiyo (砂隠れの里でも歴代最強の傀儡師としてその名を残したサソリ。) even w/o the 3KK puppet (given that most people didn't know he'd killed him and still thought he was the strongest), who fought Prime Hanzo many times, who's High 7-A to possibly 6-C. Hiruko might be 7-A tho, given that his best feat is repelling a shuriken from KN0 Naruto and was one shot by non-resolve amped Sakura (which should upscale her >KN0 Naruto btw).
Kakuzu - He says his body is straight up immune to physical attacks in the raws (そうだオレにはどんな物理攻撃も通じない) and it kiiiiinda seems like Matatabi used a Bijuudama at some point in her fight against Kakuzu and Hidan, so Diamond Morph>Bijuudamas potentially?
Kokuo - Withstood a slap from BM Bee, so could say that instead of just comparable to Bee for durability.
Kurama - Like I mentioned earlier, I think Kurama~PS is more consistent than Kurama~Base Wood Golem, and would also like to add that KCM2 Naruto antifeats aren't particularly relevant in scaling him since he's 32x larger than 50% Kurama (ur the goat for that Arc) and since he's a being of pure chakra, that's probably a proportionate strength increase. Do find 50% Kurama~KCM2 Naruto questionable though, considering the Perfect Jinchuriki boost and his antifeats against WA SM Naruto (which I still think are valid) and even deathbed Kushina reacted to him. It's not a huge deal but I think it's a bit of an unnecessary leap in logic.
Mifune - Relative to 3T FKS Sasuke (ik Sasuke blocked the attack, but he felt the need to coat his sword in lightning chakra and the way the swords bounced off each other seems like relativity).
Anyways I'm goin' to sleep
Godernet
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You have a couple arguments in here that kinda go into Top Tiers scaling and I believe Slayer was going to handle that in a different thread.
For now those characters were just given their bare minimum upgrades as a result of how a lot of characters scaling chains were affected by the Bijuu and Sannin scaling.
So stuff about BSM Nard, Full Kurama, EMS Sasuke (Jugó Enhanced), Sage Hashirama, Alive EMS Madara and anyone else in that bracket of power should probably be left out for now.
Also Mei’s lava style was intentionally left out since it would more so fall under limited dura neg based on our current standards for it.
For now those characters were just given their bare minimum upgrades as a result of how a lot of characters scaling chains were affected by the Bijuu and Sannin scaling.
So stuff about BSM Nard, Full Kurama, EMS Sasuke (Jugó Enhanced), Sage Hashirama, Alive EMS Madara and anyone else in that bracket of power should probably be left out for now.
Also Mei’s lava style was intentionally left out since it would more so fall under limited dura neg based on our current standards for it.
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I agree with SM nard not scaling to the full yield of RS, but thats something Slayer and many of us have already discussed BTS, if you scroll up you can see even Damage mention the same thing. we opted to leave it for now and tackle it separately from this thread.
but man theres way to much to unpack here.
but man theres way to much to unpack here.
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Testarossa002
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So this
I honestly don't think a statement made in P1 limits Ay 2.5 years later.
A4 is someone who was hyped to be one that trains his muscles at every free point in time (in DB4)
It's not particularly outlandish to say that he's stronger than he was some 300 chapters before
I don't know about this one chief
It's not like he was forcing it out like other instances in the series
Both himself and Yang Kurama were willing parties to the procedure
W
On a more serious note, I personally believe the Sannin should only be regarded as being relative to each other in P1
Anything from part 2 should be based on who they actually fight
It'll be quite difficult to reconcile Tsunade's feats against Madara's susanoo and Animal path (I think) casually taking jiraiya's punch
No Juugo love still
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Ay is also not scaling to Hiruzen's Ninjutsu, his just scaling to his own durability with extra steps.
Ay's durability is 6-C
Wood Fist can Injure Ay. Wood fist durability has to be the same as its striking strength
Ay can destroy the wood fist with his own striking strength. it just means his durability and striking strength are relative to one another
Ay's durability is 6-C
Wood Fist can Injure Ay. Wood fist durability has to be the same as its striking strength
Ay can destroy the wood fist with his own striking strength. it just means his durability and striking strength are relative to one another
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I disagree with your base Bee stuff Sparkles. Almost all the vs Itachi scans you sent were with partial transformations and Samehada (which can actively make opponents attacks weaker), both of which enable Bee to fight above his base form weight class. And the one scene where he’s dancing with his blades while Itachi is backpedaling they aren’t clashing. That’s just the clacking of his blades, which is made much more obvious by the anime. Also, when Bee was stopping Ay in that “72x FTL KCM Naruto vs Ay” fight, Ay was clearly not in the right mental space against his brother. Especially when Bee was hitting Ay with some talk no jutsu. It’s also just inconsistent to say base Bee ~ V1 Ay, when there are so many anti feats for that.
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Omg ur back
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Finally finished reading Sparkles post, and most of the cool stuff to talk about is for like (as Godernet said) top tiers which are being saved for a later thread lol. So ima leave Slayer to handle all the other minor stuff, since I know he really really really wants to.
The only main thing I felt compelled to argue against was the Bee stuff.
The only main thing I felt compelled to argue against was the Bee stuff.
MinatoSparkle
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Sure but the Sannin~Gokage statement is from the FKS arc. And Tsunade~LCM Ay implications are from the WA.
Sure but I'm not sure that changes the strength of the seal.
Like I said, that could just be cause she didn't have 100H in P1 (she only used Mitotic Regeneration), and so Base Tsunade~SM Jiraiya.
Hey if it makes you feel any better I lowkey agree CM2 Jugo has 6-C durability.
Eh Ay isn't particularly shown to be damaged, and we don't actually see how he gets knocked down. It could've been offguard or he could've been hit by a barrage of fists at once etc. He's just in the air one panel and hitting the ground in the next.
He also repelled Itachi's shuriken with his blades with no assistance. And if you look closely you can see Itachi had a kunai in his left hand, suggesting he was indeed clashing with Bee's blades.
Also why would Itachi backpedal and flee to higher ground unless he was being pressured?
Ehhh you could argue that but there's not THAT much implication of him being mentally nerfed. Also kinda weird to have a big emphasis on that moment of Bee surpassing his brother if it meant nothing.
From before the WA or in it? Also ik this technically isn't what the CRT is about, but even if you can make some leaps to argue against Bee's AP scaling that high, it's pretty damn hard to argue it for speed as that's much more blatant, which would still indicate his overall combat ability improved significantly.
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Negative, check the anime it’s a lot more clear.
Because he isn’t gonna let Bee just get a free hit in even if he’s stronger. Im not gonna stand a let a toddler punch my nuts even if I can oneshot a toddler.
It’s not an emphasis of power scaling, it’s an emphasis of mentality. It’s supposed to be a wake up call for Ay to know he can start trusting his brother more.
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As others have said some of this should be saved for a later thread but i whole heartedly agree with your sasori section
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MinatoSparkle
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Manga>anime
I mean why didn't he fight back
He made him realize that via strength
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The manga ain’t showing what you say it is.
Cuz he didn’t want to at that exact moment in time, who knows, why don’t you ask him
That’s not the same as Bee got stronger than V1. Stronger characters can recognize the strength of weaker characters. For example, in Bleach, Zaraki recognizes Grimmjow’s strength once he transforms, but is still stronger than that Grimmjow. Acknowledging strength =/= surpassing someone. Plus Ay was clearly not expecting Bee to be strong which supports the notion that Ay was holding back
MinatoSparkle
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Cope harderThe manga ain’t showing what you say it is.
Cuz he didn’t want to at that exact moment in time, who knows, why don’t you ask him
He was literally programmed to attack them, it isn't about what he felt like.I mean Bee beating Ay was his test of if he was strong enough to fight in the war so doesn't super make sense to hold back there, and right before the clash Bee had that flashback of surpassing Ay.
And if he was holding back, why'd he power up to the point that his hair was raised?
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Honestly 6c base bee kinda makes sense
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Ay got hit by that "Mental Daze" mid attack , obviously.
MinatoSparkle
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This argument fails entirely, because by your logic these "programmed to attack robots" wouldn't dodge anything outside of seals, cuz they can regenerate. Rather than focus on the why x dodged y, let's look at actual feats of strength rather than try to do some shakey confidence scaling.Cope harder
All this has to be saying is that Bee > base Ay. Ay can still be holding back in a stronger form.I mean Bee beating Ay was his test of if he was strong enough to fight in the war so doesn't super make sense to hold back there, and right before the clash Bee had that flashback of surpassing Ay.
And if he was holding back, why'd he power up to the point that his hair was raised?
MinatoSparkle
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I agree it's not as important as actual feats, but implications can still be used.
Uh...Base Ay is 6-C rn...so...And anyways, it's not like he just used LCM, he even went past V1
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Word
MinatoSparkle
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Exactement
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Well if base Ay stays 6-C then I’d agree. But will need to think about that some more.
MinatoSparkle
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Dam so either Base WA Bee's gonna be 7-A or Base Ay's gonna be 6-C, both undesirable
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I think base Ay AP is not gonna be 6-C lolDam so either Base WA Bee's gonna be 7-A or Base Ay's gonna be 6-C, both undesirable
MinatoSparkle
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I'm half happy about that
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Way to be positive
MinatoSparkle
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He might be fodder but that mf cheeked up.
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Well, ****......lol
IS WHAT I WOULD NORMALLY SAY IF THIS GODDAMN RESPONSE WASN'T SO GODDAMN LONG!
MS ~ SM: This one's honestly just baseless. Not a single thing in the scans you provided proves this whatsoever. Nothing even implies it. Even if we go with your interpretation, it would just apply to their full power, which is the safest assumption to make, so basically the SM FRS would scale to Sasuke's Susano'o. It's too vague a statement for you to assume that SM Naruto and MS Sasuke are physically comparable. Especially when Sasuke was physically shown to be significantly inferior to Bijuu level characters like Ay.
It should probably be 7-A, though, for being far stronger than the Futon: Rasengan, which overpowered Kakashi's own Rasengan pretty easily.
Anyway, Tracer and I simply decided to take the simplest way out of this conundrum, which is to just simply say that the RS is above Minato's known power at the time, which is simply him being above Hiruzen and Orochimaru. Although I suppose this won't be much of an issue in any case if people don't scale directly to the SM FRS, but I guess more on that later.
However, I have been thinking about this topic a little bit, since Damage and Arc brought it up before, and I may have come to a few new conclusions. It may indeed be a bit of an issue for Naruto, Pain, and by consequence a bunch of other characters to scale physically to the RS. Especially if all this multiplier business goes through. It's also somewhat weird for Jiraiya, who we're scaling below SM Naruto, to scale to the same value as Naruto's strongest attack.
So I think it makes more sense to scale all of these characters to the 4.3 value instead (where a lot of them will upscale it, obviously). This more or less eliminates any issues with the scaling, and ties everything in a neat bow. I'm sure you're now wondering how this could be possible when I still think the ST should scale above the RS. It's pretty simple. Pain and Naruto should honestly just downscale from the ST, which is already the case btw. They don't scale dead-equal to the ST, they downscale from it to an unquantifiable degree. They can survive it, sure, but it clearly overpowers and hurts them pretty badly. Given how close the values we're working with are, this makes perfect sense. A character who upscales a 4.3 Gigatons value should reasonably be able to survive an attack that upscales a 5.68 Gigatons value, even if it clearly overpowers them. It's a rare scaling luxury that we can afford due to the consistency of the values we're working with atm.
I don't know if you'll bring up similar points later in your SM Naruto/Pain sections, but if you do, then I suppose I saved myself some of the trouble of addressing that by doing it here.
In any case, I shall update the values Sandbox in order to reflect these proposals I just made later.
I know it's still in the sanbox, but that's only because my dumbass forgot to remove it. Uh, anyway, the Kakuzu comparison doesn't really work either way. Kakuzu was only damaged to that extent due to the cellular sized blades negating his durability. Would it have done the same level of damage had it been an equally powerful normal Rasengan? Probably, yes, but it's still a bit disingenuous to be constantly ignoring the fact that the RS only threat isn't just its raw power. It's unique nature needs to always be taken into consideration.
1) I honestly don't have a HUGE problem with removing this statement from the scaling, but if we do that, we have to do it for Jiraiya too. A statement is either fully correct, or it's not. We can't pick and choose aspects of a statement to accept and reject on a whim, that's cherry-picking. As I already stated in the OP, I believe SM Jiraiya's actual feats are objectively better than Naruto's, so I don't have a huge issue with removing the statement, but only if we remove it uniformly.
2) The Minato statements are not good AP justifications for Obito being stronger than Pain, at all.
, and we can see them in previous appearances also.
With all that being said, KCM's FRS already scales to Gyuki's casual TBB based on the CT feat, so it scales to 15.55 Gigatons. Just forgot to update that value in the sandbox for KCM, will do it later.
And no shit to the last part. Also No.
2) He never harmed Obito without being amped with Kurama's chakra, or without using the Raikiri.
3) Kurama Mode, or KCM2, Naruto scales to 21.5 Gigatons.
4) This is how Obito vs an un-amped Kakashi went lol.
5) It's not exactly implausible for a 4.3 Gigatons character to be able to somewhat contend with a 5.68 Gigatons character. Rather, I should say a 4.3 GT character with another 4.3 GT character given the conclusions we reached earlier, so it's really not that deep. However, it is pretty clear that Obito is stronger, and that he wasn't really trying as hard as he could against Kakashi because of his ultimate plan, which was to get stabbed through the heart with a Raikiri. So it'd make negative sense for him to shit on and kill Kakashi.
I've also just realized that it has a bunch of anti-feats anyway lol.
And let's just not talk about the inconsistencies this would bring on, like base Guy scaling to his 6th Gate, which I think we can both agree doesn't make much sense.
As for why he didn't just use the 7th Gate, that's really simple. Using the 7th Gate leaves Guy completely immobilized and unable to fight. So why would he deliberately take himself out of the fight in order to use an attack that Obito will just phase through anyway?
If you want to scale EMS Madara to SM Alive Hashirama, then I get where you're coming from, but we just don't have enough to go off of concretely.
Like, if Sasuke could just turn on the EMS and become vastly stronger, why would he be sweating?
Also those versions of Naruto and Kakashi aren't exactly an authority on every combatant in the world, nor about the extent of their power. They just do not know. And "surpassing" the Fourth in this context could also have a bunch of other connotations unrelated to AP alone. Not to mention, the idea that Minato had absolutely no rivals or is completely above everyone ever was contradicted in the series at various points, so it really just doesn't hold any water.
If you're implying that these types of statements should put Minato above literally everyone, then that's a big no-no, chief. As for the Prime Hiruzen thing, again, speculating about a character who's already got basically nearly zero screen-time probably isn't the best way to go about this. You can't really prove that Jiraiya knows about his power at all, so let's just leave it be. It's not needed, and Minato has actual solid scaling statements for us to use. No need to go crazy with the speculative metas.
Kurama was likely a willing party to this exchange, it's not at all what the Akatsuki did. Not to mention, the Chiyo scan is clearly in reference to the Jutsu the Akatsuki were using, which is clearly stated and shown to take a very long time. What Minato did took literally a second, which just goes to show that the methods are different because the situation is simply different. One's forcibly extracting a Bijuu from another, while one is just removing his own Bijuu, willingly, through another unknown method.
Also, Sparkle mate, we're just never gonna scale Minato to 50% Kurama lmao. Just give it up.
Like, do I really need to explain why this Obito isn't exactly at his best here......? Gimme a break man
And regarding the "true strength" bit, man would that stretch take Luffy to his limits.......
It's very clearly just referencing the fact that Jiraiya is a goofball most of the time, but hidden behind that goofy exterior is his true strength which he lets out when he's serious. Hence, the mention of his "serious expression". It's pretty simple to understand.
I could easily offer up alternative interpretations to this statement, and they'd be just as valid because it's simply that vague.
You say Orochimaru showed relativity to KN4, but in reality that was not the case at all.
Here's One-Tailed Naruto easily slamming Orochimaru away with one swipe. Orochimaru offered no resistance whatsoever here.
Here's Three-Tailed being shown to be capable of injuring Oro, as he ripped one of his arms off.
Here's Four Tails Naruto casually eviscerating Oro's snake wave with a simple swiping motion.
You said he "restrained his chakra arm", but that's not what happened. He tried to wrap his arm around Naruto's, and immediately started to get corroded, which is why he was prompted to escape in the first place.
You were hyping up the punch, which I gotta say did ZERO damage to Naruto, but failed to mention how casually Naruto ripped Orochimaru in half lol.
Also "defended his strongest attack" is pretty funny. He summoned three ginormous shields to block it, and they were utterly demolished. Orochimaru also made it abundantly clear that he would've died had he been hit with the TBB, which is.....why he summoned the Rashomon to begin with....So if you were implying that his durability is relative to KN4's AP with this point, then no, get outta here lol.
As for the Kusanagi feat, first of all, that's more LS than anything. Also Naruto was caught off-guard, and it's explicitly shown and noted that Orochimaru could not damage him. After which, Naruto casually swats Orochimaru aside with zero effort.
Like, I don't know if you were reading Minato here or what, but I think it's pretty clear that Shippuden Orochimaru is not relative to KN4 lmao.
Also the 30% scaling was axed a while back, we don't use it anymore.
Just ask Juubito.
And yeah, like, seriously he cannot scale to LCM Ay in base lol, otherwise he'd unironically scale above his own Bijuu Mode, which is absolutely nonsensical.
It simply does not work.
He scales to V2 Bee because their Bijuu Modes are relative, so should their V2 states.
Your sorry's just not enough.
Thanks man, I really appreciate it.
Okay so I wasn't really present when these changes were made, so I'll try to respond to them now, the ones I disagree with anyway. If I misinterpret something, feel free to correct me obviously.And before I get into "new" disagreements, I'm just gonna preface that CRTs have been made about some of this and changed already.
Basically the main stuff added by these threads are:
Yeah chief, this is a no-no from me. I've seen the evidence you put forth, and frankly, I'm not convinced.
MS ~ SM: This one's honestly just baseless. Not a single thing in the scans you provided proves this whatsoever. Nothing even implies it. Even if we go with your interpretation, it would just apply to their full power, which is the safest assumption to make, so basically the SM FRS would scale to Sasuke's Susano'o. It's too vague a statement for you to assume that SM Naruto and MS Sasuke are physically comparable. Especially when Sasuke was physically shown to be significantly inferior to Bijuu level characters like Ay.
This is fine. Itachi's already stronger than MS Sasuke in the sandbox, so it's kinda pointless to mention.
While I'm fine with Naruto being somewhat relative to Kakashi, which is already the case anyway, as they're rated on a pretty similar level, I just cannot agree to having Naruto be rated directly to or above Kakashi with these statements in particular. The context for the first statement is so painfully obvious. Kakashi is largely referring to Naruto's mastery of the Rasenshuriken. Notice how he backpedals his comments in the second scan to "you may even surpass me" after learning about the Rasenshuriken's weakness, which only further supports the idea that the entire context is clearly pointing towards the Rasenshuriken.
Uhhh, yeah, no shit. You do realize that the Rasenshuriken negates conventional durability by directly attacking its targets' cells and chakra pathway system via countless cellular sized blades, right? So, uh, yeah. Certain death sounds about right, but not inherently because of its power.
It should probably be 7-A, though, for being far stronger than the Futon: Rasengan, which overpowered Kakashi's own Rasengan pretty easily.
It definitely should not scale to that value, no. Makes no sense for it to scale to SM Naruto's FRS. KN0 is cool and all, but it can't be stronger than SM. We could go into the why of that last claim, but let's not extend this any more than we need to since I think it's probably something everyone agrees with lol.
Anyway, Tracer and I simply decided to take the simplest way out of this conundrum, which is to just simply say that the RS is above Minato's known power at the time, which is simply him being above Hiruzen and Orochimaru. Although I suppose this won't be much of an issue in any case if people don't scale directly to the SM FRS, but I guess more on that later.
Yeah, this isn't how it works at all. Chakra doesn't work that way lmao. It's not some linear graph. The Sasuke who surpassed his CM2 self had his chakra massively amped due to his hatred, which we know greatly enhances the Sharingan more than usual, so he specifically scales there with his amped Sharingan, it does not carry over to his base. Even if it did, it would not scale to Naruto for the reasons in the point below. Also, I'm pretty sure this is against the site's multiplier policies anyway.
Base to base they kinda can't be equal because Naruto only matched an extremely fatigued Sasuke who by that point could not even use his Sharingan anymore. He was incredibly tired from all of the previous fights and injuries he had to endure. Sure, he got healed at two points, but it's pretty silly to say that it undid all of the effects from the previous fights, or that it restored him fully. Even after all of that, he still overextended himself against Kakashi by using the MS, abusing the Susano'o even more, and essentially nearly going blind. The man overused his MS in a few hours so much, he pretty much replicated the damage that Itachi did to his eyes after years of usage. No real good reason for Naruto to scale to Sasuke's FP in base here. If anything, this is more of a feat for Sharingan-less Sasuke.
Uhh, no. I've seen the Yamato scan, and that's not enough for a 2x multiplier at all. The use of the word exponential on its own does not guarantee a 2x amp or anything of the sort.
This one I honestly kinda disagree with. Not because I don't think either are this strong. I'm scaling them to the same value, so obviously I do, but I take issue with the logic used to reach this comparison. Them seeing their mutual death is pretty vague. It could mean they would've died had they kept fighting at that time, or they could die in future conflicts. It could also mean a million other things. We just don't know, and it's so vague and non-specific, that it could literally mean anything. But I'll tell you what that statement doesn't claim. It doesn't claim that "MS Sasuke's Susanoo~SM Naruto's Rasenshuriken (likely)", so yeah, I just disagree tbh. Like they'll scale to the same level regardless, but I just don't view these statements you used as solid at all.
Well, it is. The "missile" analogy came up in the past, and it still doesn't work one bit. The FRS is not at all like a missile. A is a mechanical weapon that has a certain physical force while it's traveling in the air, and then through certain chemical and mechanical reactions, explodes upon hitting its target, which has it's own different force. This is pretty similar to a Bijuu Bomb, more than anything. It is, however, not very much like the Rasenshuriken. The RS is an energy attack comprised of pure wind chakra. It expands, not explode. The entirety of its energy is contained within it from the get go, it doesn't magically conjure up that energy when it expands. It's just not how that works. So, yes, Pain's Shinra Tensei easily dispersing it shows clear superiority, and I do not plan to budge on this point.
However, I have been thinking about this topic a little bit, since Damage and Arc brought it up before, and I may have come to a few new conclusions. It may indeed be a bit of an issue for Naruto, Pain, and by consequence a bunch of other characters to scale physically to the RS. Especially if all this multiplier business goes through. It's also somewhat weird for Jiraiya, who we're scaling below SM Naruto, to scale to the same value as Naruto's strongest attack.
So I think it makes more sense to scale all of these characters to the 4.3 value instead (where a lot of them will upscale it, obviously). This more or less eliminates any issues with the scaling, and ties everything in a neat bow. I'm sure you're now wondering how this could be possible when I still think the ST should scale above the RS. It's pretty simple. Pain and Naruto should honestly just downscale from the ST, which is already the case btw. They don't scale dead-equal to the ST, they downscale from it to an unquantifiable degree. They can survive it, sure, but it clearly overpowers and hurts them pretty badly. Given how close the values we're working with are, this makes perfect sense. A character who upscales a 4.3 Gigatons value should reasonably be able to survive an attack that upscales a 5.68 Gigatons value, even if it clearly overpowers them. It's a rare scaling luxury that we can afford due to the consistency of the values we're working with atm.
I don't know if you'll bring up similar points later in your SM Naruto/Pain sections, but if you do, then I suppose I saved myself some of the trouble of addressing that by doing it here.
In any case, I shall update the values Sandbox in order to reflect these proposals I just made later.
Same story is right.
Well, I haven't really gotten to it yet, but if it hasn't really been accepted yet, then it kinda is irrelevant for the time being. If it gets accepted, you can then make a separate thread proposing the changes you think should be made because of it, and then we can see if it works with the scaling or if it causes issues, etc etc.
Yeah, I guess I should've read ahead just a tiny bit lol. As I said earlier, I'm not going to go into this because I already addressed it.
We're not really using that statement anymore. We decided that the statement isn't necessarily referring to Naruto being able to withstand the RS full-power, but him being more resistant to the passive cellular damage, which was it's initial drawback/weakness that SM eliminated for him.
I already addressed the "certain death" thing, it doesn't work the way you think it does.
To this, I only have two things to say.
1) I honestly don't have a HUGE problem with removing this statement from the scaling, but if we do that, we have to do it for Jiraiya too. A statement is either fully correct, or it's not. We can't pick and choose aspects of a statement to accept and reject on a whim, that's cherry-picking. As I already stated in the OP, I believe SM Jiraiya's actual feats are objectively better than Naruto's, so I don't have a huge issue with removing the statement, but only if we remove it uniformly.
2) The Minato statements are not good AP justifications for Obito being stronger than Pain, at all.
It should only be relevant for when he was objectively stated to be nearing his limits and being low on chakra, which was around the time he fought the Jinchuriki, and climaxed around the time he was struggling against Son Goku. Otherwise, it's really not very noteworthy as making clones has never been much of a debuff for Naruto as it is for the rest of the verse due to his immense chakra reserves. He can make hundreds, up to even thousands, of clones without really getting any weaker. The only drawback to making clones in KCM is that Kurama could easily suck Naruto's chakra dry and kill him, but he clearly opts not to do this, which was later pointed out. So in practice, the clones should just be unquantifiably weaker than the main body, but not more so than what is normally the case. KCM clones had the potential to be more dangerous than normal clones, but because Kurama is a good boio, they're just the same as regular clones in practice, with no real drawbacks despite what Bee and Gyuki initially assumed. In short, they shouldn't have that massive an effect on the original Naruto.
Brother, we literally see that it did no damage. In that very same scan you linked we can see clear as day that Madara had the cracks before it hit him
, and we can see them in previous appearances also.That's uhhh, just headcanon tbh, so I'm gonna just ignore it. We see 9-Tails, so it was 9-Tails.
Too speculative, ultimately. Also we can't really assume that the Raikage's durability scales to the full yield of the TBB, since we never saw the feat in question, and as a result we can't know for sure how much of the blast he ate up, if any at all. The feat is completely off-screen, but given that he's smaller than Gyuki, he probably ate an even smaller portion of that blast, so yeah.
With all that being said, KCM's FRS already scales to Gyuki's casual TBB based on the CT feat, so it scales to 15.55 Gigatons. Just forgot to update that value in the sandbox for KCM, will do it later.
He blocked it with a Chidori-clad Kusanagi, and as the Chidori is already rated at 6-C, this is probably the reason that happened.
I feel like you answered your own point here. It's secondary canon, meaning it can be used, but only if it doesn't directly contradict what we clearly see in the manga, AKA. the source material and primary canon. And, well, it directly contradicts what we see in the manga.
Definitely not Sasuke's physicals. When we have vague statements like this one, we simply go with the safest possible interpretation and/or the ones that cause the least amount of issues. In this case, that would be to assume Suigetsu is referring to Sasuke at his best, with the Susano'o, which would be consistent with the proposed scaling as a whole. However, that statement is a bit suspect, because it implies that Suigetsu also surpassed Orochimaru (?). We know this can't be the case because Suigetsu is literally scared shitless of Orochimaru, and even worries that Sasuke himself would not be able to handle him, so it seems to me like Suigetsu may have been talking out of his ass here. Especially because he lacks any sort of sensory capabilities, so how he would even be able to guage Sasuke and Orochimaru's power is beyond me.
He did. He was just hooded, so we couldn't see it properly.
We're not revising the Top tiers in this thread, it'll be handled in its own CRT.
Ditto.
That's exactly what's being proposed, though. If you look at the values sandbox you'll see that 100H Sakura scales to the same value as base (or I guess 100H) Tsunade, and their Byakugou's scale to the other, much higher value. Although I may need to edit her justification a tad to make this a bit more clear.
1) There is zero indication that Kakashi got stronger at all. If anything, there are only statements that imply he was getting weaker due to him expending so much chakra in such a short timeframe. There's even more statements than the ones I linked, btw, but I don't feel like digging for them. This is enough to get the point across.
2) He never harmed Obito without being amped with Kurama's chakra, or without using the Raikiri.
3) Kurama Mode, or KCM2, Naruto scales to 21.5 Gigatons.
4) This is how Obito vs an un-amped Kakashi went lol.
5) It's not exactly implausible for a 4.3 Gigatons character to be able to somewhat contend with a 5.68 Gigatons character. Rather, I should say a 4.3 GT character with another 4.3 GT character given the conclusions we reached earlier, so it's really not that deep. However, it is pretty clear that Obito is stronger, and that he wasn't really trying as hard as he could against Kakashi because of his ultimate plan, which was to get stabbed through the heart with a Raikiri. So it'd make negative sense for him to shit on and kill Kakashi.
Bro what???? Two character fighting the same opponent does not inhrently mean that they're equal, or even comparable. All it means is that they can fight said opponent, that's really about it. A and B being able to fight C, or even being superior to C, says nothing about A vs B at all. Like bruh
On this point, you actually get my concession because I actually agree. Yamato and Guruguru's Mokuton has been a bit of an uncertain topic for us behind the scenes, but I talked it over with the supporters earlier today, and we reached the same conclusion pretty much. Yamato's Mokuton will not scale to KN4 Naruto's AP, and maybe only his LS, but that's for later. It also specifically weakens and binds Bijuu chakra, so yeah.
I've also just realized that it has a bunch of anti-feats anyway lol.
Obito just phases through everything for the most part, man. He doesn't only do it for attacks that would one-shot him or whatever. You gotta realize, nobody wants to get hit, generally speaking lol. It does not necessarily mean the attack being dodged (or phased through) has to scale or anything. It's just his style, and it's a smart one. Why get hit at all when you can easily eliminate all risk with your broken hax power?
And let's just not talk about the inconsistencies this would bring on, like base Guy scaling to his 6th Gate, which I think we can both agree doesn't make much sense.
As for why he didn't just use the 7th Gate, that's really simple. Using the 7th Gate leaves Guy completely immobilized and unable to fight. So why would he deliberately take himself out of the fight in order to use an attack that Obito will just phase through anyway?
Sure, that's fine, I guess.
Given where 7th Gate Guy scales, it's honestly kinda irrelevant. You went through a bunch of hoops here for a pretty shaky supporting feat, it just doesn't matter tbh.
Okay? I'm not even sure what the point you're getting at here is. The profile doesn't really have Hashirama as physically superior to Madara as far as I'm aware, it just has them as comparable, with mentions of the fact that Hashirama did defeat Madara in all of their battles, which is indeed what happened.
If you want to scale EMS Madara to SM Alive Hashirama, then I get where you're coming from, but we just don't have enough to go off of concretely.
Huh? Base Hashirama doesn't scale to Kurama tho? Only his big Mokuton Jutsu like the Wood Golem scale to Kurama, so I'm not sure what you mean by this.
That's exactly what it means lol. Worrying about someone flexing a finger means they’re at least relative to you, but that’s not a major point, and that Sasuke would have literally no reason to be sweating if Tobirama was only >= his base.
Like, if Sasuke could just turn on the EMS and become vastly stronger, why would he be sweating?
This is like super tangential tbh, and does not at all mean what you think it does. None of this proves that Naruto and Sasuke are above Minato or Tobirama, it just means they decided to take the leading role in the fight. Sasuke was just eager to attack Obito, and Naruto wanted to help him, while also protecting the Edo Kage from potentially getting erased (as Sasuke didn't really give a shit about them lol).
This is actually pretty nice. Thanks, I'll add it.
No bueno. It'd be circular, since Gururguru gets his scaling from Hiruzen in the first place.
Sigh
So you want us to replace actual direct power-scaling statements about certain known individuals with vague ass, NLF-ish statements that don't really specify anybody in particular or have any direct implications that don't require mental gymnastics? I genuinely think not.
Also those versions of Naruto and Kakashi aren't exactly an authority on every combatant in the world, nor about the extent of their power. They just do not know. And "surpassing" the Fourth in this context could also have a bunch of other connotations unrelated to AP alone. Not to mention, the idea that Minato had absolutely no rivals or is completely above everyone ever was contradicted in the series at various points, so it really just doesn't hold any water.
Considering the fact that Minato scales to Ay, then, yeah, he scales above SM Jiraiya anyway via indirect scaling and whatnot. Although I guess Jiraiya's thoughts on Minato could be added as support for his rating and whatnot. So that bit's fine.
If you're implying that these types of statements should put Minato above literally everyone, then that's a big no-no, chief. As for the Prime Hiruzen thing, again, speculating about a character who's already got basically nearly zero screen-time probably isn't the best way to go about this. You can't really prove that Jiraiya knows about his power at all, so let's just leave it be. It's not needed, and Minato has actual solid scaling statements for us to use. No need to go crazy with the speculative metas.
I mean, he scales above Kakashi. This is already a thing, very clearly lol. The Obito thing's a no-no because Kakashi doesn't scale himself.
NoFor his durability...well....
No, it isn't
Kurama was likely a willing party to this exchange, it's not at all what the Akatsuki did. Not to mention, the Chiyo scan is clearly in reference to the Jutsu the Akatsuki were using, which is clearly stated and shown to take a very long time. What Minato did took literally a second, which just goes to show that the methods are different because the situation is simply different. One's forcibly extracting a Bijuu from another, while one is just removing his own Bijuu, willingly, through another unknown method.
Also, Sparkle mate, we're just never gonna scale Minato to 50% Kurama lmao. Just give it up.
Again, the Top Tiers will be discussed later. Kurama Mode Minato's stats are placeholders for now, as that revision aims to change them. Whether we'll succeed or not remains to be seen, but either way, this ain't the thread for it.
This argument is, no offense to you directly, kinda garbage ngl. Like, you can't be serious with this lmao. It's not that I don't think he can hurt Obito, he obviously can given where he scales value wise, but to use this particular instance is baffling to me. Here we have an immobilized, dying Obito who has a literal whole through his chest and a literal missing heart.....
Like, do I really need to explain why this Obito isn't exactly at his best here......? Gimme a break man
You already know the drill. Later.
Yes, she does.
Well, I guess it's good Sasuke won't scale to 6-C physically then.
It really makes no sense for that statement to be about Sage Mode Jiraiya. We had no knowledge of that form at the time, and while it is part of his overall arsenal, it's not like it's part of his own power as its a form he needs outside help and a charge up period in order to access. It counts about as much as Orochimaru's EIght Branches, or Tsunade's Byakugou. The context for these statements in Part I is clearly about their forms we'd seen thus far, aka their base forms. Any further assumptions just require mental gymnastics of the highest order.
And regarding the "true strength" bit, man would that stretch take Luffy to his limits.......
It's very clearly just referencing the fact that Jiraiya is a goofball most of the time, but hidden behind that goofy exterior is his true strength which he lets out when he's serious. Hence, the mention of his "serious expression". It's pretty simple to understand.
This is quite literally meaningless. Pain is commenting about their unique abilities, and nothing else. Any further interpolation is just headcanon and isn't really supported by anything.
Obito literally didn't even see the fight lol, so the idea that he was specifically talking about Sage Mode Jiraiya is pretty amusing. He's just saying that the Sannin are formidable Shinobi with a great reputation, and Jiraiya having pushed Pain in his own turf only proved that notion. Nothing more, nothing less. He makes no real mention of SM in particular, nor does he compare it to the other Sannin.
This could literally mean anything. No, like, seriously. We could be theorizing about this all day, but that's not the purpose of this thread, now is it?
I could easily offer up alternative interpretations to this statement, and they'd be just as valid because it's simply that vague.
You're really looking at these statements wrong, imo. The Sannin and Hiruzen being on the Gokage's general level doesn't really have to necessarily mean that they equal each of the Gokage in every single stat, physically. All it needs to mean is that they are on their general level, enough to be able to compete and maybe win depending on the situation and the abilities involved. Cause the Gokage themselves are pretty variable between each other anyway. For example, Gaara's sand offers the greatest protection/durability, Ay's clearly the fastest, Tsunade's probably the strongest, Hiruzen's is a Ninjutsu specialist with a ton of versatility, Mei has her Kekkei Genkais, Onoki has Particle Stlye, and so on. They're not all dead equal in every singular stat, but they all are in a similar ballpark of "strength" generally, which would allow them to compete with each other. Your view is simply too narrow and doesn't cover any of the intricacies or nuances of these interactions. They simply need to be in a similar level to where none of them get stat stomped, anything beyond that is simply up to the individual scaling chains.
You can't actually claim anything in regards to the power of this Tendo because you lack a very vital piece of information regarding his level of power, that being his distance from Nagato. You can't really make any real claims in that regard, because we simply don't know, so you can't actually compare this Tendo with the one Jiraiya fought, which was likely far stronger because Nagato was within the same Village.
That's pretty amusingly positive view of Orochimaru's performance against Naruto. Allow me to offer another.
You say Orochimaru showed relativity to KN4, but in reality that was not the case at all.
Here's One-Tailed Naruto easily slamming Orochimaru away with one swipe. Orochimaru offered no resistance whatsoever here.
Here's Three-Tailed being shown to be capable of injuring Oro, as he ripped one of his arms off.
Here's Four Tails Naruto casually eviscerating Oro's snake wave with a simple swiping motion.
You said he "restrained his chakra arm", but that's not what happened. He tried to wrap his arm around Naruto's, and immediately started to get corroded, which is why he was prompted to escape in the first place.
You were hyping up the punch, which I gotta say did ZERO damage to Naruto, but failed to mention how casually Naruto ripped Orochimaru in half lol.
Also "defended his strongest attack" is pretty funny. He summoned three ginormous shields to block it, and they were utterly demolished. Orochimaru also made it abundantly clear that he would've died had he been hit with the TBB, which is.....why he summoned the Rashomon to begin with....So if you were implying that his durability is relative to KN4's AP with this point, then no, get outta here lol.
As for the Kusanagi feat, first of all, that's more LS than anything. Also Naruto was caught off-guard, and it's explicitly shown and noted that Orochimaru could not damage him. After which, Naruto casually swats Orochimaru aside with zero effort.
Like, I don't know if you were reading Minato here or what, but I think it's pretty clear that Shippuden Orochimaru is not relative to KN4 lmao.
This is pretty irrelevant. Even if I grant you that Naruto and Sasuke surpassed Orochimaru and Jiraiya, that doesn't really mean that base Orochimaru is equal to SM Jiraiya. One has nothing to do with the other.
I'm gonna ignore the fact that you're missing the context for most of these statements in your collage. But Danzo having a single amped attack that can damage the Susano'o really creates no contradictions at all. It's just its own thing.
No, that comparison doesn't really work. I already explained earlier why that statement isn't even that solid to begin with, now you're using it to assume that Oro is physically superior to every single attack in Sasuke's arsenal for whatever reason. The statement's far too vague for you to be making such assertions.
Again, Sasuke doesn't have 6-C physicals, and Mifune is only POSSIBLY scaling to a character who's only POSSIBLY on that level. To be using that as a basis to discredit Jiraiya is obviously not the most solid.
This is literally baseless headcanon, so I'll ignore it tbh. You have no clue what the difference between 3T and 4T is.
We literally can't know that lol. First of all, Kabuto's a perfect Sage, so by default he's better at absorbing, controlling, and managing NE than Jiraiya. He's also had a bunch of enhancements to his body by introducing the DNA of a bunch of characters like the S4, Karin, Suigetsu, Juugo, and Orochimaru, that includes Orochimaru's own chakra in addition to Hashirama Cells reinforcement. There's nothing that really proves that WA Kabuto is fodder without SM, quite the opposite actually. He claims that Orochimaru's body wasn't strong enough to handle Sage Mode, but his clearly was. This can be attributed to all of the enhancements he undertook. So simply put, there's no real proof that base Kabuto is weak, quite the opposite. He's not inhrently weaker than Orochimaru, we just don't have enough evidence to call it either way. Meaning, you can't really use this as evidence for Oro >> Jiraiya either.
No offense, but it's mostly just you reaching.
We can't 100% prove that he was going all out, yes, but you can't really prove he was holding back physically either, so we will just continue to go with what we're shown.
Also the 30% scaling was axed a while back, we don't use it anymore.
No.
No. Minato being kicked into Gaara is not a 6-C feat.
You know what? Upon further consideration, I actually agree. There's no real reason to scale Guruguru's Jutsu to the Mokuton's physicals. A big part of why we did it was due to Gururguru being superior to Yamato, who's Mokuton was 6-C. Now that he's not, though, yeah RIP for the Buddha's physicals ig. I'll adjust it later.
The others already addressed this, so I won't get into it. But just know that base Bee, simply cannot scale to this level, which is literally derived from his durability in Bijuu Mode. It makes no sense and creates circular scaling and inconsistencies. But also most of his feats on this level just aren't even that solid. The best stuff comes from the Ay fight, and we know that Ay was holding back the whole time up until the last full speed punch against Naruto, because that's when he was noted to be actually going all out. He was progressively ramping up his speed, meaning he was never really trying his hardest from the get go. He also has no logical reason to be going all out or with killer intent against his brother. He clearly did not want to kill him. There was a lot of mental fuckery going on in their exchanges too, as they did the "chakra telepathy" thing multiple times, and from there you know the fight just devolves into a battle of wills.
And yeah, like, seriously he cannot scale to LCM Ay in base lol, otherwise he'd unironically scale above his own Bijuu Mode, which is absolutely nonsensical.
It simply does not work.
Again, you can't proof they got stronger, at all, so this is moot. Also not really within the scope of this revision anyway.
He scales to V2 Bee because their Bijuu Modes are relative, so should their V2 states.
Both feats are counted, it's just Durability Negation now as per the wiki's new policy around heat. Same applies for LCM Roshi's feats.
Given that I addressed all of this already, and don't agree with your Jiraiya scaling, I'll just ignore this.
This I actually agree with. He was put in the At Most tier in the values sandbox, I just forgot to update his profile sandbox.
The thing is, Sasuke just blocked Mifune's attack. He doesn't actually have any reason to scale, although you could argue that he felt the need to amp his blade with a Chidori, so that should make him at least on par with him physically or something. Could work for Mifune and Hanzo as a more solid scaling method than the Jiraiya statement, I suppose. But it's still pretty ehhhh, since Sasuke just effortlessly blocked Mifune, and Mifune didn't really do anything beyond getting easily blocked.
This is nothing more than a LS feat. The Iron Sand cube was stationary, and Sakura simply displaced it, but she didn't actually damage it at all.
The fight wasn't dismissed due to inconsistencies necessarily, it was dismissed because we know absolutely nothing about it or how it went down, at all. There's zero proof that Sasori's puppets were able to physically contend with the 3KK's Iron Sand, though, that's for certain.
Not really. Neither of these statements really prove that his other puppets are physically superior to the Iron Sand at all, and if anything the 3rd has just as much implication for being his best puppet. It's also pretty silly to suggest this given the fact that Sakura could easily shatter these puppets, and overpower them, but could not do anything about the Iron Sand and is incapable of damaging or defending against it directly.
We don't really know how the fights between Chiyo and Hanzo went, so this is also pretty weak.
We don't scale off of thrown Shuriken as it's simply not that reliable.
No. We can't really know that that was a Bijuu Bomb. Both Matatabi and Kakuzu have wide AOE elemental attacks besides the TBB, so this isn't really that solid. He should just scale to what we actually see him tanking on-screen and not try to take the statement to its highest possible interpretation just because we can. It's just not that solidly founded.
Uh, sure. This can be added.
You know what I'm going to say, so I'm not going to say it.
Eh, I'm whatever on this feat tbh. I'll leave it up to the others, don't care much either way.
I'm sorry to those who read all of that
- Status
