The sword of the strawhat vs the heavenly sword

[Fezzih_007]

You would be correct, Reid stomps pretty bad

Not really no, gonna say why a little later.

And do you need to say that so many times?

 

[Zabazab]

The truth will not be silenced

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I am truth , the truth

 

[Arkenis]

Leaning towards Zoro for now.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Alright, I am ready now.

Okay so first, the match start for 4km. No problem, both gonna run at each other to fight. The starting move for both is usually close combat, so thas't is going to be scenario 1. But if someone ask about attacking from a distance, I can cover that in scenario 2. Reid scale to Cecilus, and Cecilus can do a attack that can split clouds way in the sky.
And Zoro have a tons of ranged attack techniques, that can cover Kilometers. So they can both attack from affar. Who is better trought?
Is probally a draw. Zoro and Reid can both do the attack at the same speed, so it don't really matter. What does really matter, is who can consistently dodge more attacks from affar. Since speed equal, Zoro have the higher reaction speed here, and he also have layered precognition, so he can dodge way more attack from Reid, even from affar. And can pull out his attacks at the same speed. But since Reid can cut anything, he can cut Zoro attacks, so is hard to grasp to who's gonna win this. Zoro who dodges better, or Reid.

This question is ultimatly pointless, since Zoro not gonna stay attacking from a distance and gonna get annoyed with Reid spamming from a distance, so advancing to go from close combat is the goal.


Les't go to scenario 1, close combat. And this get complicated.
So about skill. While both of them are incredible fighters, with Reid negging Julius and others statements, and Zoro being Zoro, both have differents advantages.

Reid here have:
Better perception manipulation
Can cut almost all Zoro ranged attacks and his owm swords.
Can duraneg with time hax
Can resist fear manipulation

Zoro have:
Layered precognition
Faster reaction speed
Way better techniques from close range
Ap advantage
Lifting streght advantage
Better mobility
Better pain endurance
Better extrasensory perception
Attack Reflection
O Tatsumaki, who can one-shot and almost impossible to avoid in close range
If he loses his swords, he can still fight using Mutoryu


Now gonna bring out the argument of "Reid just gonna cut Zoro using his hax the moment they cross blade lel"
I need to eat my dinner, so i gonna make it quick, Reid is not do it in the first move. He is probally do it when he gonna get pressured, or wants to surprise Zoro in a surprise attack, but is most likely he would want cross blade with Zoro first, before using it.
And Zoro can uses his fastert reaction speed and precognition to dodge all his attacks, and even the space cutting ones.

Thas't it for now.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

LordGinSama voted too.
And i pretty sure XDragnoir voted FRA too.

I am not sure if being racist counts as a wincon

 

[Fezzih_007]

I am not sure if being racist counts as a wincon

Wait, it doesn't? Because i think 90% of my votes don't count then in this site then, sheesh.

Also it's class T vs class G. Zoro can disarm him and can tear literal chunks out of his flesh just from the sheer LS gap.

He give here reasons here trought.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Alright, I am ready now.

Okay so first, the match start for 4km. No problem, both gonna run at each other to fight. The starting move for both is usually close combat, so thas't is going to be scenario 1. But if someone ask about attacking from a distance, I can cover that in scenario 2. Reid scale to Cecilus, and Cecilus can do a attack that can split clouds way in the sky.
And Zoro have a tons of ranged attack techniques, that can cover Kilometers. So they can both attack from affar. Who is better trought?
Is probally a draw. Zoro and Reid can both do the attack at the same speed, so it don't really matter. What does really matter, is who can consistently dodge more attacks from affar. Since speed equal, Zoro have the higher reaction speed here, and he also have layered precognition, so he can dodge way more attack from Reid, even from affar. And can pull out his attacks at the same speed.

Huh? What? You just made the point of speed equal meaningless? Zoro doesnt have a faster reaction speed. Also Reid has layered precognition as well

But since Reid can cut anything, he can cut Zoro attacks, so is hard to grasp to who's gonna win this. Zoro who dodges better, or Reid.

Again Zoro being better at dodging doesnt make sense, also he is the type to block attacks not dodge them

This question is ultimatly pointless, since Zoro not gonna stay attacking from a distance and gonna get annoyed with Reid spamming from a distance, so advancing to go from close combat is the goal.


Les't go to scenario 1, close combat. And this get complicated.
So about skill. While both of them are incredible fighters, with Reid negging Julius and others statements, and Zoro being Zoro, both have differents advantages.

So, out of all the ReZero characters you choose to go for Julius who isnt even as skilled as Elsa.

Reid here have:
Better perception manipulation
Can cut almost all Zoro ranged attacks and his owm swords.
Can duraneg with time hax
Can resist fear manipulation

Zoro have:
Layered precognition
Faster reaction speed

No he does not

Way better techniques from close range

Your proof? Can he even pull shit on the same level as Theresia?

Ap advantage
Lifting streght advantage
Better mobility

Mobility? How?

Better pain endurance
Better extrasensory perception

Can he sense layered invisible hands too?

Attack Reflection
O Tatsumaki, who can one-shot and almost impossible to avoid in close range

What if, Reid just...blocks it with his indestructible sword and redirects the force. Which yk he can do as well

If he loses his swords, he can still fight using Mutoryu


Now gonna bring out the argument of "Reid just gonna cut Zoro using his hax the moment they cross blade lel"
I need to eat my dinner, so i gonna make it quick, Reid is not do it in the first move. He is probally do it when he gonna get pressured, or wants to surprise Zoro in a surprise attack, but is most likely he would want cross blade with Zoro first, before using it.
And Zoro can uses his fastert reaction speed and precognition to dodge all his attacks, and even the space cutting ones.

This is Reid in SBA, the "Light hearted bantering" part is over. This is Reid when he was beyond disgusted by Subaru and so he instantly behead him

Thas't it for now.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Wait, it doesn't? Because i think 90% of my votes don't count then in this site then, sheesh.

Us bro us

He give here reasons here trought.

Thats a different person...

 

[Fezzih_007]

Us bro us

Is good that no mods are wathing this match hahaha...

Thats a different person...

Is not trought, is still Lord Gin,

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Is good that no mods are wathing this match hahaha...

Ong

Is not trought, is still Lord Gin,

Right. I would like to propose a counter arguement for that tho, the LS doesnt matter as much if Zoro fails to actually grab Reid since he cant tear him limb from limb like that

 

[Fezzih_007]

Ok, that as fast.

Huh? What? You just made the point of speed equal meaningless? Zoro doesnt have a faster reaction speed. Also Reid has layered precognition as well

In speed equal, the combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc.
Reid have faster combat speed, so he is the one getting downgrade here, but Zoro Reaction speed is normally faster than him, so they will stay the same, while Reid gets downgrade.

And Zoro precognition is way better already, and Reid resistance is not layered.

Again Zoro being better at dodging doesnt make sense, also he is the type to block attacks not dodge them

He can do both, really don't matter

So, out of all the ReZero characters you choose to go for Julius who isnt even as skilled as Elsa.

He is trought.

And i chossing him because he is the best comparative we have Reid battle on-screen+I need to eat so i quicly choose Julius as a feat.

No he does not

Your proof? Can he even pull shit on the same level as Theresia?

Is one the page for zoro, in techniques.

Mobility? How?

Acrobatics, is on the page.

Can he sense layered invisible hands too?

Is not even on the page for Reid, so he don't scale until someone puts there lol.

And yes, he is able to block invisible attacks.

What if, Reid just...blocks it with his indestructible sword and redirects the force. Which yk he can do as well

Reid can't exactly block a tornado that attack from every direction, before dying. His not gonna be able to redirects either, if he got taken by surprise.

This is Reid in SBA, the "Light hearted bantering" part is over. This is Reid when he was beyond disgusted by Subaru and so he instantly behead him

Disagree with this btw, SBA don't give him any motives for him to want to kill Zoro, if he likes to fight. Like Julius.

 

[LordGinSama]

Goken GG.

 

[VortechsTG]

Disagree with this btw, SBA don't give him any motives for him to want to kill Zoro, if he likes to fight. Like Julius.

Reid fought and killed dragons in his spare time and nearly commited genocide. He's like a trophy hunter. He has absolutely no regard for his targets. There's no reason he would not be willing to kill Zoro if the alternative is him being killed. Unless you're arguing that Zoro isn't trying to kill him, which completely changes the matchup, he would fight completely seriously.

 

[Zabazab]

In speed equal, the combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc.
Reid have faster combat speed, so he is the one getting downgrade here, but Zoro Reaction speed is normally faster than him, so they will stay the same, while Reid gets downgrade.

Reid can boost his perception like Wilhelm can.

Is one the page for zoro, in techniques.

Reid can pseudo-fly.

Is not even on the page for Reid, so he don't scale until someone puts there lol.

Reid's profile literally states "Superior to Wilhelm"

Reid can't exactly block a tornado that attack from every direction, before dying. His not gonna be able to redirects either, if he got taken by surprise.

Doesn't need to block, he slashes through it.

Disagree with this btw, SBA don't give him any motives for him to want to kill Zoro, if he likes to fight. Like Julius.

Reid takes people stronger than or equal to him 100% seriously and will not hold back. Julius is small fry to Reid.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Reid can boost his perception like Wilhelm can.

I know.

Reid can pseudo-fly.

Ok, so? I don't think that disproves my point about Zoro having way more technique in close range.

Reid's profile literally states "Superior to Wilhelm"

Minus in extrasensory perception.

Doesn't need to block, he slashes through it.

While being destroyed by the tornado, no.

Reid takes people stronger than or equal to him 100% seriously and will not hold back. Julius is small fry to Reid.

You actually have the best argument against my point about Reid not using his cutting hax.

Even then, i din't say his not gonna take this serious, i said he is not gonna use his cutting hax first move, because he would want to test Zoro swordmanship by crossing blades normally. Like Julius. He wanting to kill Zoro is a different manner, he could want to kill Zoro and still enjoy the fight.

 

[Zabazab]

Julius was not a random mook wanting to kill Reid, you literally cannot use that fight to say how Reid would usually act, when he went off and slaughtered likely hundreds of thousands, maybe millions for whatever reason, and showed zero mercy.

Reid is going to spot Zoro from 4km away, raise his chopsticks, and evaporate Zoro. In fact I still think Reid is stomping here. Zoro has little to no chance at winning because he is massively outskilled, and will be slashed down by Reid as his swordsmanship manifests the very concept of the "Sword" itself, and therefore it will slash down anything in its path, in this case Zoro and any attacks Zoro tries to use.

Killing the very concept (概念) of sound and light, Reid’s flash cleaved space.

He would affirm. Should it be the stipulated sword or the chopsticks, regardless, come what may in that flash’s path, it would be slashed down.

For that was, the very manifestation of the [concept] (概念) of the 『Sword』.

The 『Sword』 was that which was brought forth for the purpose of slashing objects down.

And sword moves, was the term denoting the techniques for slashing objects down with that sword.

Henceforth, the flash which slashed down all objects in the world, was the culmination, and the long-cherished original desire, of the 『Sword』 and of 『Sword Moves』.

Those slashed by it, would not forget the truth of having been slashed down for eternity.

Thus, the scar Julius Juukulius sustained beneath his left eye, shall not fade away for eternity.

That was the indemnification for having dodged the Sword Saint’s flash, from a distance near enough to graze past.

 

[Eminiteable]

I'll vote Zoro, his AP advantage is almost 500 times higher with his LS being thousands higher, any attack he uses here is going to one-shot.

His Kenbun + AP will allow him to dodge his attacks and Buso will let him resist his spatial cutting.

He also has the significant speed advantage when using Lai techniques as he could speed blitz characters with relative reaction speed to his regular techniques even while underwater where he is physically slower.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I'll vote Zoro, his AP advantage is almost 500 times higher with his LS being thousands higher, any attack he uses here is going to one-shot.

His Kenbun + AP will allow him to dodge his attacks and Buso will let him resist his spatial cutting.

I think it was already covered that Reid can still cut through any spatial resistance that Zoro has

He also has the significant speed advantage when using Lai techniques as he could speed blitz characters with relative reaction speed to his regular techniques even while underwater where he is physically slower.

Can you explain this ability further? Something to note is that peak wilhelm got strong enough to blitz kurgan who had the exact same stats when faced with danger and Reid scales above that. All swordsmen get stronger when faced with stronger opponents and get even better when on the verge of death, pretty similar to how Zoro works in OP

 

[Fezzih_007]

Right. I would like to propose a counter arguement for that tho, the LS doesnt matter as much if Zoro fails to actually grab Reid since he cant tear him limb from limb like that

So? How that don't matter? Zoro can still achive this wincon, you argument don't disproves that he can't. Just saying "If he fails to grab Reid" is not a counter argument because he can succeed in doing do.

 

[Eminiteable]

I think it was already covered that Reid can still cut through any spatial resistance that Zoro has

I never saw that, would be useful to see the comment covering that please.

Can you explain this ability further? Something to note is that peak wilhelm got strong enough to blitz kurgan who had the exact same stats when faced with danger and Reid scales above that. All swordsmen get stronger when faced with stronger opponents and get even better when on the verge of death, pretty similar to how Zoro works in OP

Zoro sheathes his aword, moves at blitzing speed unsheathing it and cutting his opponent only to re-sheathe it after completing the move.

It's a blitzing technique that he has consistently blitzed opponent's on his level and even those with reaction/combat speed FTE compared to Zoro.

The specific example for this key is when he was forced to fight underwater against a Fish-Man who on land was able to react to Zoro's techniques. It's stated and shown that underwater fishmen are faster while humans are slower yet Zoro's lai technique still blitzed him underwater.

It's not the same as him simply growing stronger/faster than his opponent after fighting them for a while.

 

[Fezzih_007]

I think it was already covered that Reid can still cut through any spatial resistance that Zoro has

Techinically, we agree that Reid could still cut Zoro due to his cutting time hax, not his spartial manipulation.

 

[Fezzih_007]

1: Zoro has layered resistance to spatial manipulat

If he does I can't find it on his profile. Or it's not there. Reid can also cut through Regulus' temporal invincibility with ease, so time hax is also part of it.

I never saw that, would be useful to see the comment covering that please.

We don't really talked about It, but Reid can also cut time stop, so he can still duraneg Zoro.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I never saw that, would be useful to see the comment covering that please.

Zoro sheathes his aword, moves at blitzing speed unsheathing it and cutting his opponent only to re-sheathe it after completing the move.

It's a blitzing technique that he has consistently blitzed opponent's on his level and even those with reaction/conbat speed FTE compared to Zoro.

The specific example for this key is when he was forced to fight underwater against a Fish-Man who on land was able to react to Zoro's techniques. It's stated and shown that underwater fishmen are faster while humans are slower yet Zoro's lai technique still blitzed him underwater.

It's not the same as him simply growing stronger/faster than his opponent after fighting them for a while.

Understandable I would argue that this can be countered by Reid too, Ram as a normal teenager could dodge Garfiels attacks which if you highball is a 130x speed difference even if you lowball there would be a significant speed difference and Reid is even more talented than that and of course we also have the peak wilhelm feat

 

[Fezzih_007]

Understandable I would argue that this can be countered by Reid too, Ram as a normal teenager could dodge Garfiels attacks which if you highball is a 130x speed difference even if you lowball there would be a significant speed difference and Reid is even more talented than that and of course we also have the peak wilhelm feat

Are you really using this feat again, even trought that's as agreed to be a outlier from a staff member, and is not even is up to the site rules?

 

[Zabazab]

Understandable I would argue that this can be countered by Reid too, Ram as a normal teenager could dodge Garfiels attacks which if you highball is a 130x speed difference even if you lowball there would be a significant speed difference and Reid is even more talented than that and of course we also have the peak wilhelm feat

Don't use that dreaded number

You can just say Reid gets an amp from facing Zoro, and then still has the skill to deal with far faster opponents like Ram does.

I'll vote Zoro, his AP advantage is almost 500 times higher with his LS being thousands higher, any attack he uses here is going to one-shot.

Reid is most likely to counterattack rather than block, which would slash down Zoro's attack due to concept hax.

His Kenbun + AP will allow him to dodge his attacks and Buso will let him resist his spatial cutting.

Dodging for long will be difficult due to the amp Reid gets from facing a stronger opponent, Reid also resists precog but not telepathy. He has concept hax on top of space-time hax so dura neg should still work.

He also has the significant speed advantage when using Lai techniques as he could speed blitz characters with relative reaction speed to his regular techniques even while underwater where he is physically slower.

Reid can greatly increase his perception speed while fighting 1v1 to the degree that everything appears slow-motion and everything but the opponent vanishes from view.

 

[LordGinSama]

Reid is most likely to counterattack rather than block, which would slash down Zoro's attack due to concept hax.

Tbh as far as I'm gathering he's only been shown to cut through the concept of sound and light, which Zoro doesn't use.

 

[Eminiteable]

Reid is most likely to counterattack rather than block, which would slash down Zoro's attack due to concept hax.

Kenbunshoku would tell Zoro exactly what he will do so it doesn't really matter if he blocks or counter attacks.

Dodging for long will be difficult due to the amp Reid gets from facing a stronger opponent, Reid also resists precog but not telepathy. He has concept hax on top of space-time hax so dura neg should still work.

He doesn't resist the type of precognition from Kenbunshoku Haki.

Reid can greatly increase his perception speed while fighting 1v1 to the degree that everything appears slow-motion and everything but the opponent vanishes from view.

Does it have any better feats or is that it? Because I don't see how slowing down his perception to the point things move in slow motion let's him deal with something with the blitz level of Zoro's lai techniques.

 

[LordGinSama]

Also Zoro has some degree and experience with similar abilities. Goken does the same shit (Minus the concept slashing which should just be conceptual NPI imo.) and Zoro's works on all of his attacks.

 

[Zabazab]

Tbh as far as I'm gathering he's only been shown to cut through the concept of sound and light, which Zoro doesn't use.

That's a misinterpretation of his concept hax- his swordsmanship manifests the very concept of what a "Sword" is.

A "Sword" is a weapon that slashes things down, and so the Heavenly Sword slashes down everything that exists for eternity:

Killing the very concept (概念) of sound and light, Reid’s flash cleaved space.

He would affirm. Should it be the stipulated sword or the chopsticks, regardless, come what may in that flash’s path, it would be slashed down.

For that was, the very manifestation of the [concept] (概念) of the 『Sword』.

The 『Sword』 was that which was brought forth for the purpose of slashing objects down.

And sword moves, was the term denoting the techniques for slashing objects down with that sword.

Henceforth, the flash which slashed down all objects in the world, was the culmination, and the long-cherished original desire, of the 『Sword』 and of 『Sword Moves』.

Those slashed by it, would not forget the truth of having been slashed down for eternity.

Thus, the scar Julius Juukulius sustained beneath his left eye, shall not fade away for eternity.

That was the indemnification for having dodged the Sword Saint’s flash, from a distance near enough to graze past.

He doesn't resist the type of precognition from Kenbunshoku Haki.

Does Zoro resist both types of Reid's precog? It might turn into a dodging match.

Does it have any better feats or is that it? Because I don't see how slowing down his perception to the point things move in slow motion let's him deal with something with the blitz level of Zoro's lai techniques.

It's that, combined with the initial speed amp, combined with his ability to handle far faster fighters through skill.

 

[LordGinSama]

That's a misinterpretation of his concept hax- his swordsmanship manifests the very concept of what a "Sword" is.

A "Sword" is a weapon that slashes things down, and so the Heavenly Sword slashes down everything that exists for eternity:

That should be reflected on his profile then again Reid's profile seems to have been rushed when it was made.

 

[Zabazab]

I agree. It's because there wasn't a lot of content with him that existed or was translated.

Re:Zero top tiers are just generally vague and mysterious which is why I dislike that they get thrown into so many vs matches. The story is only halfway done at the moment.

 

[Fezzih_007]

That's a misinterpretation of his concept hax- his swordsmanship manifests the very concept of what a "Sword" is.

A "Sword" is a weapon that slashes things down, and so the Heavenly Sword slashes down everything that exists for eternity:

Did this get accepted? I don't remember.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

That should be reflected on his profile then again Reid's profile seems to have been rushed when it was made.

Reid's pofile has existed since before there was even official art for him.

The arc he appeared in wasn't fully translated when it was made, heck I still have yet to read those last few arc 6 chapters, this concept of a sword thing, was from those last ones

 

[Eminiteable]

Does Zoro resist both types of Reid's precog? It might turn into a dodging match.

He doesn't "resist" any form of precognition.

It's that, combined with the initial speed amp, combined with his ability to handle far faster fighters through skill.

That's fair, when it comes to Zoro he has also shown the ability to handle opponent's that move FTE compared to him through sheer skill as well:

Zoro also showcases impressive predictive accuracy, being able to predict the movements and trajectory of his opponents, being able to predict FTE attacks and attacks that change trajectory.

And when it comes to his lai techniques they have a few more impressive feats:

1. When he fought Bartholomew Kuma, an opponent who had a significant speed advantage over him (Plus his Pad cannons and lasers a very significant attack speed advantage) and was capable of repelling any of Zoro's attacks with his fruit, Kuma still felt the need to evade Zoro's lai techniques using his "teleportation" whenever he anticipated them. However, the moment when he didn't dodge, Zoro swiftly blitzed and cut him. This feat was accomplished before the timeskip, and over the course of two years, Zoro improved each of his old techniques to a higher level.
2. Against King, who compared to Zoro can move FTE when he turns off his flames, was speed-blitzed when Zoro used his lai technique.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Reid is most likely to counterattack rather than block, which would slash down Zoro's attack due to concept hax.

Zoro can Dodge that with faster reaction speed and Haki Kenbun. If Reid try to attack the attack, Zoro gonna Dodge to the side, and use Onigiri.

Dodging for long will be difficult due to the amp Reid gets from facing a stronger opponent,

In the page says:

Accelerated Development (Battle, and Training; Other, Abilities, and Physical Statistics, More skilled than Old Wilhelm, who is stated to be inhuman in comparison to[13] Juulius, who mid-combat can make his attacks become more sure and accurate. Far more skilled than Garfiel, who while fighting Elsa, was able to counter her ability to foresee attacks she had seen before[14], even if done with overwhelming numbers. More skilled than Elsa, who in a couple months gained the ability to predict future attacks, hit vitals despite her senses being interfered with etc. When faced with a superior opponent, a sword master will get stronger[15], unleashing their most perfect attack. More skilled than Wilhelm who grows faster[16] and more nimble in combat, and on the verge of death, gets even faster than when he was in perfect health[17].

So according with the page, Reid will only get faster If his on the verge of death. Problemy with this is Reid gonna die in the first blow, so he won't be able to get injured enough, so he can get faster enough to dodge Zoro.

,Reid also resists precog but not telepathy.

He doesn't resist the type of precognition from Kenbunshoku Haki.²

He has concept hax on top of space-time hax so dura neg should still work.

Yes.

Reid can greatly increase his perception speed while fighting 1v1 to the degree that everything appears slow-motion and everything but the opponent vanishes from view.

Not gonna help him much, since It just give him a faster time to think, is not gonna help much against a speed amp.

Does Zoro resist both types of Reid's precog? It might turn into a dodging match.

I don't remember now.

It's that, combined with the initial speed amp, combined with his ability to handle far faster fighters through skill.

What initial speed amp?
And Reid don't exactly have a feat from dealing with faster opponents, since the Ram thing is a outlier. Or there's other feat i missing? Because i can't find It, and i would be Glad If you put It here.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

You can counter precog via being able to predict/see more steps ahead than the other precog user, and you can counter analytical prediction and stuff similar via being unpredictable... Those are not resistances but counters

 

[LordGinSama]

You can counter precog via being able to predict/see more steps ahead than the other precog user, and you can counter analytical prediction and stuff similar via being unpredictable... Those are not resistances but counters

^^^

Otherwise every Kenbunshoku Haki user would have layered resistance and negation to precognition. Which isn't the case as we know outside of Shanks

 

[Arkenis]

Reid FRA

 

[Fezzih_007]

Ehhhhh i think i gonna vote Zoro due to his precognition and faster reaction speed.