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The Super Saiyan Speed Multiplier

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AKM sama said:
Not replying to repeated stuff. Freeza beam barrage stuff means SSJ Goku is faster than him. It doesn't mean he is exactly 2x faster than him. The flight scan says that speed is dependent on ki, which it is. Size of the ki increases = speed increases. It doesn't say that the relation is linear. Just that it is proportional.

Agree with the OP: AKM sama, Damage, Ovens, Confluctor, Zamasu Chan, Vietthai, Maverick, Lephyr

Disagreement: Medeus, Gilad, Stefano, Orange, Null, Arslan, Therefir, KLOL

Neutral: Nierre

I'll wait for more staff.
Click to expand...
If someone is wondering, this was the old list and I have not kept track after this. (Confluctor's name is bolded because he is a thread mod).
 
AKM sama said:
Let the speed scaling be it's own topic. This thread is simply for discussing whether Freeza's statement "If I put out about 50%, that is to say, half of my maximum power, I'll be able to turn you into space dust..."

is referring to his strength alone or speed too.
Click to expand...
It seems to only refer to raw strength/power.
 
AKM sama said:
If someone is wondering, this was the old list and I have not kept track after this. (Confluctor's name is bolded because he is a thread mod).
Click to expand...
You can add me to the agree list.
 
Antvasima said:
It seems to only refer to raw strength/power.
Click to expand...
But he got faster, he was getting blitz in 50% and was able to tag goku [albeit still slower] in 100%, narratively why would he only lower his strength and not speed, heck when going to 100% his power level went up to 120 million.
 
The opposing arguments for the favour of 50x increase are:

1- the guidebooks states that SSJ is comparable to how KK works, besides the downfall and downsides of KK.


2- The guidebooks states that the SSJ increases the battle power/Ki of a saiyan by 50x increase, and KK works by increasing the battle powe/ki of someone, thus effecting or multiplying Your ki/battle power effects your stat. Making your battle power/ki bigger by 2, it makes you go 2x faster, stronger, durable, more destructive....

3- goku's power level went from 3 million, to 150 million, doing the math, it reveals to us that it's an actual 50x increase. Goku went from getting blitz by causal 50% frieza to being able to outpace and being slightly fatser than full power 100% frieza, showing once again that SSJ increased goku's speed. Heck, even ssj2 made gohan fast enough to literally blitz cell Jr and one shooting them.


4- vegeta prior in his fight against appule, states that strength and speed grows along with each other. Goku against the ginyu force, powerd up, which caused his speed and strength to be grow to the point of drolling them. All ssj forums increase your speed and strength, ssj1,2,3,god, blue, KK, Even UI and MUI.

5- the term power, more often than not, refers to all physical and ki abilities , but when it's not, it's pointed out [trunks's ssj comes into mind.]

6- It is possible for speed and strength to increase independently from each other [dypo speed bullet comes into mind] but that's usually not the case, but when it is, the show goes outs of it's way to treat it as something special.
 
Orange said:
But he got faster
Click to expand...
And faster doesn't mean exactly 2x faster. Everybody knows he got faster. But the amount by which he got faster is unquantifiable. Once again, if you don't understand what is being talked about, then don't reply. Don't make it about something it isn't.
 
AKM sama said:
And faster doesn't mean exactly 2x faster. Everybody knows he got faster. But the amount by which he got faster is unquantifiable. Once again, if you don't understand what is being talked about, then don't reply. Don't make it about something it isn't.
Click to expand...
Actually, we know how much. You are the one who doesn't want to accept it. He was using 50% of his total battle power, going to 100% will double his total battle power, thus it's not an assumption , it's literally basic math.
If I'm using 50% of speed, which is 3 meters per second, in my 100% form, It will be doubled. That's how percentage works in DB at least.
 
I dunno, it just seems like a weird stretch to assume that their speed increases are different when most other cases tend to be pointed out. It just feels like an overreaction to seeing the speed be so high out of seemingly nowhere because Toriyama tends to be a scaling based author over a feat based author.

I say just say that it's likely and not definite and that'll be that.

Edit: Then again, speed is the most useless stat on this site, who ******* cares.
 
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I already said my opinion about this but... it's true, i honestly don't even care about speed considering that it's a useless stat anyway, so... i honestly don't care in the slightless about this whole thread
 
I think I'm in favor on either a "possibly" or no concrete multiplier.

While AKM's explanation makes more sense to me, this scan in particular, if taken litteraly, should be able to prove that they get a speed boost equal to their power one.
However I don't really like using a very precise wording as a basis unless it is the original language, since translation obviously mean you won't have the exact same words and sentence structure.
Edit: I was shown different translations which word it differently, and doesn't imply equal increase; so I agree with AKM unless the jap has a different wording or whatever.
 
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Alright, I was just giving the new staff rights and all, when I realized that you guys were using the wrong translation all along.

So I will post the correct one here.

aa.jpg


Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), 7.4
Context: after Vegeta dodges Kui's attack
Kui: Wh…when did you…?!”
Vegeta: “When my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too.”

I hope this will finally put a stop to "Vegeta said this so it means this" nonsense.
 
No, it just means what we already knew. That an increase in battle power means that speed also increases. Doesn't tell us that the relation is linear, which it isn't considering all the stated battle powers in the manga not resulting in the same amount of speed or strength growth.
 
Dagoth_OwO said:
The Daizenshuu did state that SS1 grants a battle power 50 times that of normal so there's that
Click to expand...

AKM sama said:
All the reasons that depend on "battle power scales to all stats linearly" or "2x battle power = 2x strength = 2x speed" are invalid. If you think 2x battle power means 2x strength and 2x speed, please make a thread to get this accepted in the wiki. Because this is a 2011-era argument and has never been accepted here. And thus, reasons based on it are invalid.

For the bajillionth time, understand that an increase in ki or battle power means an increase in all stats (strength, speed and durability) normally.

It doesn't mean that all these increases are equal in amount. A 5 times increase in battle power could result in an unquantifiable increase in strength. And a 5 times increase in strength could result in an unquantifiable increase in speed.

Just to give an example, BoZ Piccolo's battle power is 80x higher than an average human. But his AP is not. And neither is his speed. They are both higher by different amounts, the former being Moon level and the latter being relativistic+.
Click to expand...
 
AKM sama said:
Just to give an example, BoZ Piccolo's battle power is 80x higher than an average human. But his AP is not. And neither is his speed. They are both higher by different amounts, the former being Moon level and the latter being relativistic+.
Click to expand...
While the argument isn't bad there is fundamental flaw in this statement.

If we look at that example and your comment it implies that if you increase your PL 80x the increase in speed and power is greater than that. Rather than linearly it's exponential with both stat boosts being different in magnitude but still higher than the 80x increase . And you use this argument to downplay the increase to be below 80x.
 
SirAlex09 said:
If we look at that example and your comment it implies that if you increase your PL 80x the increase in speed and power is greater than that. Rather than linearly it's exponential with both stat boosts being different in magnitude but still higher than the 80x increase . And you use this argument to downplay the increase to be below 80x.
Click to expand...
Because if you take even more examples, you'll find out that whatever the increase is, it is never consistent. The inconsistent nature of increase is exactly why we don't assume any fixed relation between battle power and stats. We cannot say it is always linear like kaioken. We cannot say it is quadratic. We cannot say it is cubic. We cannot say it is biquadratic. We cannot say it is exponential. We cannot say it is logarithmic.

What we do say is that it is inconsistent or unquantifiable, which is why we never use battle power to ascertain someone's stats. We only use it for A > B > C scaling.

(I should also note that this discussion is a tangent from the main point. Battle power is currently treated like this, and has been from the start. If someone wants to change how battle powers are treated in the wiki, I'd appreciate creating a CRT and getting it accepted before arguing about it in this thread because it will be a derail. The topic of this thread is Freeza's statement.)
 
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AKM sama said:
I see there has been toxicity on this thread while I was away. So this will be a warning for all. I see another comment that is derailing and spreading toxicity by attacking someone for their opinions, they will be threadbanned on the spot without warning or worse depending on what they do.

All the reasons that depend on "battle power scales to all stats linearly" or "2x battle power = 2x strength = 2x speed" are invalid. If you think 2x battle power means 2x strength and 2x speed, please make a thread to get this accepted in the wiki. Because this is a 2011-era argument and has never been accepted here. And thus, reasons based on it are invalid.

For the bajillionth time, understand that an increase in ki or battle power means an increase in all stats (strength, speed and durability) normally.

It doesn't mean that all these increases are equal in amount. A 5 times increase in battle power could result in an unquantifiable increase in strength. And a 5 times increase in strength could result in an unquantifiable increase in speed.

Just to give an example, BoZ Piccolo's battle power is 80x higher than an average human. But his AP is not. And neither is his speed. They are both higher by different amounts, the former being Moon level and the latter being relativistic+.
Click to expand...
That is fine, if it isn't accepted then I'll argue for it right here right now.
It would give unquantifiable increases like you said if power levels were non linear. The problem is your example is invalid because that section of the story's power levels may be non linear, but that is not the case for the later section of the story.
Lets go back to my earlier post.
Why is this being ignored or has it already been brought up?
"Note: It has been stated numerous times across various sources in the series that a larger ki means greater statistics -- statistics such as strength[1] and overall power[2], speed[3], aerial capabilities[4], destructive capacity[4], and defense[4]."
It's so blatantly stated that an increase in battle power is an increase in ki, and an increase in ki increases all statistics.
"By controlling all the ki in your body... and amlify it... if you control it right, your power speed everything suddenly just go zoom."
By looking at this kaioken statement and how it works, kaioken increases all stats linearly, and it does by controlling ki, it also linearly increases power level. This proves that increasing ki means increasing all stats linearly as well as power level. Guess what also linearly increases power level?
main-qimg-6482b6d5d5adeb1045cbc45cccef6cbe



Any increase in one statistic would automatically scale to all the other statistics linearly.
Click to expand...
We know for a fact kaioken boost all statistics (speed power...) by 2x. But we also know for a fact that it took Goku from a battle power of 8000 to one of 16000 and kk3 made him 24000, we see that it's increasing his power level linearly. This clearly PROVES that a linear increase in power level is a linear increase in all statistics by the same amount. You might say "this is special only for kaioken" but it is not true. Look at this scan. It is stated kaioken works by amplifying ki, when you amplify all of your ki, all of your stats amplify by the same amount, this is proven by the power level increase being linear in the kaioken example. How does this then relate to super saiyan? Refer to the above scan. Super saiyan is a linear increase from 3000000 to 150000000 just like kaioken is. This proves that SSJ is both a 50x power AND speed increase.
 
Kaioken is literally an exception because of its direct statement of multiplying everything by the same amount. And that is why it is accepted as a linear boost for all stats. That is all there is to know regarding your point. To prove SSJ is the same, you need to bring the same statement about SSJ.
 
AKM sama said:
Kaioken is literally an exception because of its direct statement of multiplying everything by the same amount. And that is why it is accepted as a linear boost for all stats. That is all there is to know regarding your point. To prove SSJ is the same, you need to bring the same statement about SSJ.
Click to expand...
What the hell? I proved that it works the same way for ki in general. The method by which kaioken linearly increases all statistics is by amplifying ki. Battle power measures ki, and a linear increase in battle power aka ki increases all stats by the same amount, Super Saiyan is not a 50x boost to strength, it is a 50x boost to battle power. this means it is also a 50x boost to speed.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
What the hell? I proved that it works the same way for ki in general. The method by which kaioken linearly increases all statistics is by amplifying ki. Battle power measures ki, and a linear increase in battle power aka ki increases all stats by the same amount, Super Saiyan is not a 50x boost to strength, it is a 50x boost to battle power. this means it is also a 50x boost to speed.
Click to expand...
Then if KK works via multiplying your battle power, and SSJ works via multiplying your battle power, why the hell isn't 50x considered for speed when both are compared and worked exactly the same way?
Hope these scans help
 
I find the OP's arguments to be quite weak, in my personal opinion. It seems to build an entire narrative to contextualize what they believe in before actually giving an actual logical reasoning, even though the premise is under a very apparent confirmation bias.

"Power means physical/energy strength", when, as I'm sure others have noted here, is not the case at all. Power, during this very arc, is treated as an universal term referring to a character's overall battle statistics, obviously including speed. I can prove that. Be aware that I am not claiming that you are against the idea that increase in power means increase in speed, I know you know that, not trying to strawman by any means, I am trying to contextualize my future point as well.

We have the obvious line at Chapter 249: "If my power level has risen, the obviously my speed has improved as well"

Chapter 257 gives us an implication given the context. After speedblitzing Dodoria the same way he did Cui, he says "My strength grew far beyond anything I could've dreamed of", which seems to be again, an implication that "strength" and "power" are universal terms for battle statistics.

Chapter 302, Freeza's power is stated to be far higher, and suddenly, he becomes too fast as well.

Chapter 304, after his power has grown again, Freeza immediately speedblizes everyone.

Chapter 305, after Vegeta reacted to Freeza's immense speed, Piccolo says: "He could see that attack? Have his abilities/power/strength grown this much?"
This has multiple translations, but the Japanese statement uses "実力", which is basically "true strength".

So, there is a clear cut connection between the term Power and Speed here, which sets up my next point. Proving that it's being treated as linear.

While Power Levels are often inconsistent with rule of three, and past values, this is because the concept was only conceived first during the Saiyan Saga through Raditz. And since then, the Power Levels have been treated as mostly (please, attention to this word) linear when it comes to powerscaling, and the inconsistency from past numbers before the concept was even a thing can be easily explained by Toriyama just giving any number as long as it represented difference in power, and was smaller than the ones established.

This is seen more clearly through the Kaioken, a technique deliberately stated to directly multiply one's physical power, speed, and endurance through Ki Manipulation, and the manga treats it as a direct Power Level multiplier as well.

This is also reflected through the Daizenshuu Power Levels,

Where, while at Base, Goku has a Power Level of 8000, but by using Kaioken x4, thus, quadrupling all his stats, he has a Power Level of 32000, and so on.

This is also true for the Freeza Fight, also present in the last link, being at Base resulting in a Power Level of 3000000, but having 60000000 after using Kaioken x20, thus having 20 times his usual speed as well.

It's pretty clear to me that, as of Saiyan Saga, and Freeza Saga, Power Levels were mostly linear when it comes to speed, having twice the power level meaning having twice the speed. But pay attention to this, am I saying we should simply use Rule of Three to scale people? Absolutely not. The numbers are still inconsistent with feats because Toriyama is quite dumb with these things, BUT, as everything else in the franchise, this should be a case-by-case basis. And Freeza's Power Level definitely fits the criteria.

While not even trying, Freeza could keep up with Base Goku, PL of 3 mil. But as Goku had risen his speed by 20 times, 50% Freeza could react to KKx20 Goku's Attacks and react/stop his Kamehameha while at 50%, meaning that Freeza speed has risen by 20x as well.

Talking about percentages, we have enough common sense to say that Freeza was a 2.5% of his power at the start of the fight, correct? (Matched with Base Goku)
It's just basic interpretation, as the percentages are aligned with Freeza's Power Level, 50% being 60 mil, and 100% being 120 mil, so 3 mil has to be 2.5%.

Thus, my conclusion is, given how closely related Power and Speed are treated, and given how linear the Power Levels were during the Freeza fight due to the inclusion of Kaioken, I think it's safe to assume 50% Freeza was also using 50% of his speed, and 100% Freeza, having twice the amount of Power Level that KKx20 Goku does, have twice his speed as well. (As KKx20 has 20x his base's Power Level, and 20x his base's Speed).


It is basic association logic, and for these reasons, I disagree with the OP.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
I find the OP's arguments to be quite weak, in my personal opinion. It seems to build an entire narrative to contextualize what they believe in before actually giving an actual logical reasoning, even though the premise is under a very apparent confirmation bias.

"Power means physical/energy strength", when, as I'm sure others have noted here, is not the case at all. Power, during this very arc, is treated as an universal term referring to a character's overall battle statistics, obviously including speed. I can prove that. Be aware that I am not claiming that you are against the idea that increase in power means increase in speed, I know you know that, not trying to strawman by any means, I am trying to contextualize my future point as well.

We have the obvious line at Chapter 249: "If my power level has risen, the obviously my speed has improved as well"

Chapter 257 gives us an implication given the context. After speedblitzing Dodoria the same way he did Cui, he says "My strength grew far beyond anything I could've dreamed of", which seems to be again, an implication that "strength" and "power" are universal terms for battle statistics.

Chapter 302, Freeza's power is stated to be far higher, and suddenly, he becomes too fast as well.

Chapter 304, after his power has grown again, Freeza immediately speedblizes everyone.

Chapter 305, after Vegeta reacted to Freeza's immense speed, Piccolo says: "He could see that attack? Have his abilities/power/strength grown this much?"
This has multiple translations, but the Japanese statement uses "実力", which is basically "true strength".

So, there is a clear cut connection between the term Power and Speed here, which sets up my next point. Proving that it's being treated as linear.

While Power Levels are often inconsistent with rule of three, and past values, this is because the concept was only conceived first during the Saiyan Saga through Raditz. And since then, the Power Levels have been treated as mostly (please, attention to this word) linear when it comes to powerscaling, and the inconsistency from past numbers before the concept was even a thing can be easily explained by Toriyama just giving any number as long as it represented difference in power, and was smaller than the ones established.

This is seen more clearly through the Kaioken, a technique deliberately stated to directly multiply one's physical power, speed, and endurance through Ki Manipulation, and the manga treats it as a direct Power Level multiplier as well.

This is also reflected through the Daizenshuu Power Levels,

Where, while at Base, Goku has a Power Level of 8000, but by using Kaioken x4, thus, quadrupling all his stats, he has a Power Level of 32000, and so on.

This is also true for the Freeza Fight, also present in the last link, being at Base resulting in a Power Level of 3000000, but having 60000000 after using Kaioken x20, thus having 20 times his usual speed as well.

It's pretty clear to me that, as of Saiyan Saga, and Freeza Saga, Power Levels were mostly linear when it comes to speed, having twice the power level meaning having twice the speed. But pay attention to this, am I saying we should simply use Rule of Three to scale people? Absolutely not. The numbers are still inconsistent with feats because Toriyama is quite dumb with these things, BUT, as everything else in the franchise, this should be a case-by-case basis. And Freeza's Power Level definitely fits the criteria.

While not even trying, Freeza could keep up with Base Goku, PL of 3 mil. But as Goku had risen his speed by 20 times, 50% Freeza could react to KKx20 Goku's Attacks and react/stop his Kamehameha while at 50%, meaning that Freeza speed has risen by 20x as well.

Talking about percentages, we have enough common sense to say that Freeza was a 2.5% of his power at the start of the fight, correct? (Matched with Base Goku)
It's just basic interpretation, as the percentages are aligned with Freeza's Power Level, 50% being 60 mil, and 100% being 120 mil, so 3 mil has to be 2.5%.

Thus, my conclusion is, given how closely related Power and Speed are treated, and given how linear the Power Levels were during the Freeza fight due to the inclusion of Kaioken, I think it's safe to assume 50% Freeza was also using 50% of his speed, and 100% Freeza, having twice the amount of Power Level that KKx20 Goku does, have twice his speed as well. (As KKx20 has 20x his base's Power Level, and 20x his base's Speed).


It is basic association logic, and for these reasons, I disagree with the OP.
Click to expand...
in b4 "true strength" doesn't refer to "true speed"

In all seriousness, I wholeheartedly agree with this.
 
AKM sama said:
Because if you take even more examples, you'll find out that whatever the increase is, it is never consistent. The inconsistent nature of increase is exactly why we don't assume any fixed relation between battle power and stats. We cannot say it is always linear like kaioken. We cannot say it is quadratic. We cannot say it is cubic. We cannot say it is biquadratic. We cannot say it is exponential. We cannot say it is logarithmic.
Click to expand...
Then provide all examples. I am pretty sure they can be debunked. The most mentioned ones are SSJ2 Gohan vs Cell and Piccolo and in both cases the increase proved to be much higher than the actual multiplier if anything. In my opinion considering it linear is a valid low ball.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
I find the OP's arguments to be quite weak, in my personal opinion. It seems to build an entire narrative to contextualize what they believe in before actually giving an actual logical reasoning, even though the premise is under a very apparent confirmation bias.

"Power means physical/energy strength", when, as I'm sure others have noted here, is not the case at all. Power, during this very arc, is treated as an universal term referring to a character's overall battle statistics, obviously including speed. I can prove that. Be aware that I am not claiming that you are against the idea that increase in power means increase in speed, I know you know that, not trying to strawman by any means, I am trying to contextualize my future point as well.

We have the obvious line at Chapter 249: "If my power level has risen, the obviously my speed has improved as well"

Chapter 257 gives us an implication given the context. After speedblitzing Dodoria the same way he did Cui, he says "My strength grew far beyond anything I could've dreamed of", which seems to be again, an implication that "strength" and "power" are universal terms for battle statistics.

Chapter 302, Freeza's power is stated to be far higher, and suddenly, he becomes too fast as well.

Chapter 304, after his power has grown again, Freeza immediately speedblizes everyone.

Chapter 305, after Vegeta reacted to Freeza's immense speed, Piccolo says: "He could see that attack? Have his abilities/power/strength grown this much?"
This has multiple translations, but the Japanese statement uses "実力", which is basically "true strength".

So, there is a clear cut connection between the term Power and Speed here, which sets up my next point. Proving that it's being treated as linear.

While Power Levels are often inconsistent with rule of three, and past values, this is because the concept was only conceived first during the Saiyan Saga through Raditz. And since then, the Power Levels have been treated as mostly (please, attention to this word) linear when it comes to powerscaling, and the inconsistency from past numbers before the concept was even a thing can be easily explained by Toriyama just giving any number as long as it represented difference in power, and was smaller than the ones established.

This is seen more clearly through the Kaioken, a technique deliberately stated to directly multiply one's physical power, speed, and endurance through Ki Manipulation, and the manga treats it as a direct Power Level multiplier as well.

This is also reflected through the Daizenshuu Power Levels,

Where, while at Base, Goku has a Power Level of 8000, but by using Kaioken x4, thus, quadrupling all his stats, he has a Power Level of 32000, and so on.

This is also true for the Freeza Fight, also present in the last link, being at Base resulting in a Power Level of 3000000, but having 60000000 after using Kaioken x20, thus having 20 times his usual speed as well.

It's pretty clear to me that, as of Saiyan Saga, and Freeza Saga, Power Levels were mostly linear when it comes to speed, having twice the power level meaning having twice the speed. But pay attention to this, am I saying we should simply use Rule of Three to scale people? Absolutely not. The numbers are still inconsistent with feats because Toriyama is quite dumb with these things, BUT, as everything else in the franchise, this should be a case-by-case basis. And Freeza's Power Level definitely fits the criteria.

While not even trying, Freeza could keep up with Base Goku, PL of 3 mil. But as Goku had risen his speed by 20 times, 50% Freeza could react to KKx20 Goku's Attacks and react/stop his Kamehameha while at 50%, meaning that Freeza speed has risen by 20x as well.

Talking about percentages, we have enough common sense to say that Freeza was a 2.5% of his power at the start of the fight, correct? (Matched with Base Goku)
It's just basic interpretation, as the percentages are aligned with Freeza's Power Level, 50% being 60 mil, and 100% being 120 mil, so 3 mil has to be 2.5%.

Thus, my conclusion is, given how closely related Power and Speed are treated, and given how linear the Power Levels were during the Freeza fight due to the inclusion of Kaioken, I think it's safe to assume 50% Freeza was also using 50% of his speed, and 100% Freeza, having twice the amount of Power Level that KKx20 Goku does, have twice his speed as well. (As KKx20 has 20x his base's Power Level, and 20x his base's Speed).


It is basic association logic, and for these reasons, I disagree with the OP.
Click to expand...
Ahem, to add, growing in power results on growing in speed in similar fashions.

1- Gohan's SSJ2 caused him yo blitz and one shot Cell jrs.

2- Goku's ssg allowed hin to land hits and tag beerus, previously in ssj3 he was getting blitzed and one tapped.

3- Goku against the ginyu force was blitzing them [Juice's barrage wasn't hitting goku, and goku one shotting recoome, and playfully making fun of burter] and one ******** them, showing again that increase in power equal increase in speed to similar degrees.
 
Orange said:
Ahem, to add, growing in power results on growing in speed in similar fashions.

1- Gohan's SSJ2 caused him yo blitz and one shot Cell jrs.

2- Goku's ssg allowed hin to land hits and tag beerus, previously in ssj3 he was getting blitzed and one tapped.

3- Goku against the ginyu force was blitzing them [Juice's barrage wasn't hitting goku, and goku one shotting recoome, and playfully making fun of burter] and one ******** them, showing again that increase in power equal increase in speed to similar degrees.
Click to expand...
Apple, that's not really adding anything new. The opposition has already stated, and I quote, "for the bajillionth time" that an increase in power also is an increase in speed, the problem is whether it's an increase by the same amount. Your examples don't prove that it's an increase by the same degree.
 
So to summarize disagreeing sides points; Battle power is not a statistic that only measures strength, it measures all combat statistics? Strength/speed/dura/everything else, because of vegeta's statements, how kaioken works, and the changes we see in a person when someone's battle power increases?
 
LeSupremeKing1 said:
So to summarize disagreeing sides points; Battle power is not a statistic that only measures strength, it measures all combat statistics? Strength/speed/dura/everything else, because of vegeta's statements, how kaioken works, and the changes we see in a person when someone's battle power increases?
Click to expand...
Kind of.

Power can refer to one's overall stats. Battle Power, or Power Level, is usually being treated linearly when Kaioken is directly involved, and it functions as a increase for all battle statistics. Anyone with an official Power Level that accompany that increase should be scaled accordingly, as it's clearly being treated as such at that time, although it is a case by case thing that should be done in case it doesn't break scaling and it makes sense.
 
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