The Super Saiyan Speed Multiplier

[Zamasu_Chan]

Goku-Ginyu was injured and did not even attempt to follow them as they sped off.
Unless you were referring to the off-hand comment Ginyu made, which means little to nothing.

“Means nothing” literally spells out the argument you provided.

Goku was kicking Kefla into mountains and into the air with ease. What gave you the impression that Kefla was "physically stronger" than him? And even then, Kefla leapt towards him from another mountain. He had ample time to react and outmaneuver her.

Of course you didn’t watch the whole thing. Ok, at the end of the fight Kefla had enough strength to one shot Goku but still couldn’t hit him.

Outmaneuvered, not outsped.

That doesn’t change my overall premise. By your logic, Broly should blitz Vegeta here due to his battle power being overwhelming higher.

He is capable of evading an attack he saw from miles away and getting tagged by an opponent with far less mobility than him.

His battle power is 10x greater. Your logic implies he should be 10x faster, but in later panels, Goku doesn’t get blitzed in the slightest.

Not only is Goku shown here being slammed and dragged across the ground and coming out unscathed, but all he did was step back when she threw punching at him.

Kale forces him to use blue, showing she’s blatantly stronger than SSJ2. He shouldn’t be able to outmaneuver her by your own admission.

Toppo was standing still.

Again, you didn’t watch the full clip. 17 was avoiding Toppo the entire time.

He also does not employ Ki Control.

Prove it.

Dyspo smacked up Hit, tussled with Godku, and nearly defeated Ultimate Gohan and Golden Frieza. "Weak as hell?"

Base Dyspo was significantly faster than Final Form Frieza but Frieza walked off every punch.

Again, these aren’t linear increases all the time.

 

[StekFence]

Goku was kicking Kefla into mountains and into the air with ease. What gave you the impression that Kefla was "physically stronger" than him? And even then, Kefla leapt towards him from another mountain. He had ample time to react and outmaneuver her.

Kefla was strong enough to kill goku in one hit I believe.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

at the end of the fight Kefla had enough strength to one shot Goku

At the end, after she became a Super Saiyan 2, became angry, and employed a technique that greatly amplified her power.

By your logic, Broly should blitz Vegeta here due to his battle power being overwhelming higher.

His power is very obviously not "overwhelming higher" than that of Vegeta. By your logic, Broly would be able to ragdoll Vegeta and abuse him because he took one punch without flinching, but Vegeta was capable of holding him back and taking his punches without much injury.

Your logic implies he should be 10x faster, but in later panels, Goku doesn’t get blitzed in the slightest.

This argument relies on the idea that a ten-times difference in speed is enough to blitz a character, but we have no evidence of that.

Kale forces him to use blue, showing she’s blatantly stronger than SSJ2.

See, Kale has this really neat ability where she gets angry, right? And, when she gets angry in this uncontrollable transformation of hers, her power increases, hence why she goes from barely scathing Super Saiyan 2 Goku, to ragdolling him and blowing him away with one blast, to forcing him to power up. Unless your argument is "SSJ2 Goku has the strength of an ascended Super Saiyan but the speed of a Super Saiyan Blue, which is why he could dodge Kale at first".

17 was avoiding Toppo the entire time.

He was avoiding attacks from miles away. You act like Toppo launched an ultra-powerful, ultra-fast energy explosion directly at his face, point-blank range, and 17 just moved out of the way before it happened. Toppo was hitting him from long-range; he has the ability to evade.

Prove it.

Prove he does.
Show me one instance of Watagashi using a single Ki-related ability by itself.

Base Dyspo was significantly faster than Final Form Frieza but Frieza walked off every punch.

Seems like they were battling on equal footing, actually.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Vegeta does actually get 10x faster as an oozaru. Not only was goku dodging the oozaru's attack an outlier to the rest of the fight, but we literally see in the same page that vegeta swats kaioken goku out of the air like a fly then we get this statement

He is actually shocked at his speed. In the official translation, Goku claims even a 5x kaioken wouldn't make a difference. And to top it off.
Vegeta's beam blitzes Goku mid attack from a large distance away.

Even the rest of the points brought up by zamasu man are bs but I'll just leave flower man to it.

 

[BetterThanYou]

Don't worry guys, AKM will surely use his authoritarian powers and get this downgrade passed. Just like what happened with that 2-C gt upgrade thread where despite solid arguments AKM closed the thread and even threatened many DB fans with bans in that thread. So you all can say "Disagree FRA" all you want. But it doesn't mean shit.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Null's points, but about Fluffy's what does the '10 Seconds" statement have to do with it being a 10x multiplier. And where does the 5x statement come from. I see Kaioken, but no 5x statement

@BetterThanYou you need to behave. Remember, you had only recently had your ban expired and while disagreeing with him is fine. Insulting staff members or poisoning the well does not sit right here.

 

[BetterThanYou]

I agree with Null's points, but about Fluffy's what does the '10 Seconds" statement have to do with it being a 10x multiplier. And where does the 5x statement come from. I see Kaioken, but no 5x statement

@BetterThanYou you need to behave. Remember, you had only recently had your ban expired and while disagreeing with him is fine. Insulting staff members or poisoning the well does not sit right here.

Oh so now questioning a staff member's disgusting authoritarian behavior is "misbehaving" now. What AKM did in that GT thread was absolutely disgusting. And I don't know why you are bringing up my ban. I was banned for a completely different reason and I do take full responsibility for that.
The way stafff like AKM can just approve or disapprove a thread despite dozens of knowledgeable members agreeing or providing solid arguments, is the main reason why me and many others hate this wiki.

 

[SirAlex09]

A few examples.

Ginyu, in Goku's body, was faster than base Ginyu despite only having a power level of 23,000. Keep in mind, base Ginyu has a power level of 120,000.

Kefla, despite being physically stronger than Goku, is a lot slower.

Broly, while being completely invincible compared to SSG Vegeta, is still getting outpaced by his much weaker opponent.

Goku is still capable of maneuvering around a 10x stronger Vegeta.

SSJ2 Goku has no trouble dodging Kale despite being much weaker.

A majority of this fight shows A17 being blatantly faster than Toppo despite being much weaker.

Watagash being a 10-C parasite capable of moving at MFTL+ speeds.

Dyspo exists. Weak as hell but fast as **** BOI!

And likely more examples. Keep in mind. I'm not denying that more ki = more power and speed. That's pretty blatant. I'm simply saying they're relative/don't increase the same way at the same time. The examples shown explain my point.

Because Speed is dependant on a lot of factors. PL is just one of them. But it is still the case that if you double your PL you double your speed.

Let's talk about flight. Your flight speed is dependant on your flight technique. While it's true that a higher PL makes you faster, you can achieve greater flight speed by having a superior technique as well. Best example is flying Nimbus, Piccolo and Radditz Scenario.

Radditz considers the flying Nimbus to be pretty fast( Mach 1 Speed) in terms of travel speed which was flight speed wise superior to Goku who was way above lightning timer.

This kinda debunks the Ginyu. Goku simply had a superior technique. Before you say " But hey it's technique it shouldn't apply to Ginyu since he is the one using it" --> If we look at Black's case alot of technique's were engraved in the body and work via muscle memory.

Next one is Kaioken Goku, SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta vs Great Ape Vegeta, Kale and Broly respectively. They do have analytical prediction. You know that right? They can predict their brute force fighting style easily.

Concerning Dyspo you can say that he is using a technique to specifically amp his speed. Base Dyspo is SSJG tier and Goku could still react well enough to turn Blue despite Dyspo being 1000 x faster.

In a nutshell just because you have a lower PL doesn't mean that you are slower. (because a lot of factors play a role) But if you increase your PL you do get faster by the same magnitude..

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I agree with Null's points, but about Fluffy's what does the '10 Seconds" statement have to do with it being a 10x multiplier. And where does the 5x statement come from. I see Kaioken, but no 5x statement

@BetterThanYou you need to behave. Remember, you had only recently had your ban expired and while disagreeing with him is fine. Insulting staff members or poisoning the well does not sit right here.

Vegeta states that oozaru is a 10x increase to battle power in a different scan I didn't show, I'm just proving it actually applies to speed.
In the first scan, they try to claim that since Goku is able to dodge one attack the oozaru doesn't get faster but it's wrong. Oozaru easily swats Goku out the air while in kaioken then the real purpose or that first scan where Goku says he's shocked vegeta is so fast despite being so big. In the same scan, in the better official translation, instead of goku saying his only chance is to increase his power, he actually says a kaioken 5x will make no difference against vegeta meaning that his speed is above 5x which is consistent with the 10x gap. The 10 seconds thing is irrelevant. This is all supported by the blitz. Hope it's clear.
Edit:
Here's one scan.

I literally can't find the kaioken 5x one, the site I use doesn't let me share scans.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh so now questioning a staff member's disgusting authoritarian behavior is "misbehaving" now. What AKM did in that GT thread was absolutely disgusting. And I don't know why you are bringing up my ban. I was banned for a completely different reason and I do take full responsibility for that.
The way stafff like AKM can just approve or disapprove a thread despite dozens of knowledgeable members agreeing or providing solid arguments, is the main reason why me and many others hate this wiki.

Questioning a staff member isn't misbehaving but the way you're doing it is. AKM is a hardworking staff member who is just trying to do what he believes is right and has good intentions. Does that mean he's flawless? No, no one is. And actually, it was rejected for multiple reasons. And it is important because rule breaking immediately after you were just unbanned sets a really bad precedent.
AKM Sama is also a really big fan of Dragon Ball too. Also, this should be common sense, if you hate a website or community so much, simply don't even go there unless there's a way to better it without drama or conflict. But there is a lack of that going on and has always been going on ever since you joined the wiki tbh.
Keep excessive drama and conspiracy theories off this thread please.

 

[AKM sama]

I see there has been toxicity on this thread while I was away. So this will be a warning for all. I see another comment that is derailing and spreading toxicity by attacking someone for their opinions, they will be threadbanned on the spot without warning or worse depending on what they do.

All the reasons that depend on "battle power scales to all stats linearly" or "2x battle power = 2x strength = 2x speed" are invalid. If you think 2x battle power means 2x strength and 2x speed, please make a thread to get this accepted in the wiki. Because this is a 2011-era argument and has never been accepted here. And thus, reasons based on it are invalid.

For the bajillionth time, understand that an increase in ki or battle power means an increase in all stats (strength, speed and durability) normally.

It doesn't mean that all these increases are equal in amount. A 5 times increase in battle power could result in an unquantifiable increase in strength. And a 5 times increase in strength could result in an unquantifiable increase in speed.

Just to give an example, BoZ Piccolo's battle power is 80x higher than an average human. But his AP is not. And neither is his speed. They are both higher by different amounts, the former being Moon level and the latter being relativistic+.

 

[Antvasima]

I am uncertain here, but like Medeus I think that Stefano and Nullflower seemed to make good points. What does Zamasu think about this issue?

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

After looking through this thread, I disagree for what was stated prior.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

In a nutshell just because you have a lower PL doesn't mean that you are slower. (because a lot of factors play a role) But if you increase your PL you do get faster by the same magnitude..

This is actually a better premise than the side I was arguing against. But I’m out. Clearly you guys got this settled.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think that we should do here @Zamasu_Chan ?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

What do you think that we should do here @Zamasu_Chan ?

Since it’s normal for speed to increase with power, maybe that should be the default assumption unless proven otherwise.

 

[Orange]

Again, this downgrade relies on faulty premises.
1- "Ssj doesn't increase speed with 50x". This is wrong, goku went from getting blitz by 50% frieza [and I doubt if frieza was using 50%, he could be using even less] to being comparable and slightly faster than 100% frieze, heck he was confident enough in beating 100% frieza before frieza going 100% [which is revealed to be true]. Ssj Is compared to how the kK works without its major flaws, even the guidebooks states that SSJ increases your battle power/Ki by 50x, and battle power literally encompasses all stats.
2- "increase in ki doesn't mean increase in speed". That's even more flawd, the KK increases your ki, which in turn increases all of your stats, heck vegeta even states that if you increase your power, you naturally increase your speed. Ssj2 was a huge boost in speed and power, gohan literally was blitzing and one shooting cell Jr. But ofcourse, this has outliers such as trunks transformation , but whenever these ooutliers happen the show goes out of it's way to point that it is not the norm.
Yeah, I can't agree with this thread at all, heck if ssj was only 20x increase in speed, why didn't the show say it [especially at the time, the show was dealing with numbers such as KK, power levels, SSJ.]

 

[Antvasima]

Since it’s normal for speed to increase with power, maybe that should be the default assumption unless proven otherwise.

Yes, that is a good point.

 

[Orange]

Yes, that is a good point.

I agree with zamasu here, to highlight it [shouldn't also be a note in the verse page along with ssj and KK?] I'll give multiple examples.
1- KK increased both speed and AP via increasing your ki.
2- Ozaru [altho controversial] increased vegeta' speed and AP.
3- SSJ1,2,3 god, blue UI, MUI all increased ap along with speed.
4- Frieza in his 100% was stronger and faster than his 50% self.
5- Vegeat stating that increase in power also means increase your speed [later to be proven true].
There are probably more examples Tbh, but I'm too lazy to include them [such as goku vs ginyu force etc....]

sorry for derailing >

 

[Vietthai96]

Well, i did propose a compromise with At least [insert speed], likely [insert speed]. As of right now both side are not wrong either. But Zamasu idea is not bad. Well i'm fine either way

Don't worry guys, AKM will surely use his authoritarian powers and get this downgrade passed. Just like what happened with that 2-C gt upgrade thread where despite solid arguments AKM closed the thread and even threatened many DB fans with bans in that thread. So you all can say "Disagree FRA" all you want. But it doesn't mean shit.

I think you should calm down. Even though i can say that i'm not like and disagree with many AKM's arguments over the time i'm here, hostile toward him is unjust action; this is vs board, different person have different view and interpretation over one or some feats and statements, no need to get heated

 

[Vizer04]

Alright, maybe a "likely" rating is the best for now, i agree with @Vietthai96

 

[Antvasima]

Never mind. I am not well-informed enough to properly evaluate this issue. AKM seems to know what he is talking about.

 

[Orange]

Not really , considering he goes against author's intent and balant statement. Specifically when 99% of the verse supports Goes against what he is trying to implement. I favour DDM judgement in this case over AKM.

Never mind. I am not well-informed enough to properly evaluate this issue. AKM seems to know what he is talking about.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the issue is that multiplying speed levels by 50,000x beyond what has actually been demonstrated seems very unproven and unreliable.

My apologies for interfering in this thread without getting some more indepth perspective first.

 

[Orange]

Well, the issue is that multiplying speed levels by 50,000x beyond what has actually been demonstrated seems very unproven and unreliable.

My apologies for interfering in this thread without getting some more indepth perspective first.

But the scaling is accepted, the multiplier is accepted , so why can't we implimnet them both?

 

[Vizer04]

I have to agree with @AKM sama and @Antvasima in this. And i repeat, a "likely" rating would be the best for both sides of the discussion.

 

[Orange]

I have to agree with @AKM sama and @Antvasima in this. And i repeat, a "likely" rating would be the best for both sides of the discussion.

It's not, at all. The only way likely can work if we have vague statements about who's stronger than who, and vague statements about ssj multiplier.
But as a comprise [and I'm frankly tired of "MultiPlIer sTackIng" and "You aRe just WaNking aNd abusing MultiplEirs". So I'll just accept "at least....likely ...." with a blog explaining everything so people don't complain or ask about why this character have this value and why does that character scale to that character.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Well, the issue is that multiplying speed levels by 50,000x beyond what has actually been demonstrated seems very unproven and unreliable.

My apologies for interfering in this thread without getting some more indepth perspective first.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but thats not what this thread is about?

All we are discussing is whether or not the super saiyan multiplier applies to speed as well.
Maybe you are confusing this thread with a different one?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The worst that's logically should happen as a result of this thread is each 50x multiplier being stacked for speed gets replaced with 20x multipliers stacked, while all the stacked 50x AP multipliers should stay. This is what we're discussing.

Furthermore, the multiple step instances of Character A's base form being far superior to character B's Kaioken and/or Super Saiyan form in every way; power and speed, are too blatant and in our faces to be ignored. But this is not the thread to talk about, this topic.

But anyway, I'd rather not repeat myself. I can agree with where the OP is coming from, PL multipliers are not usually linear and multiplier it by X is usually a lot more than X times AP and speed wise; especially AP. And there are characters with unique fighting styles that otherwise favor AP or Speed over the other, but the gaps are rarely seen amongst characters of different weight classes and ballparks. And the same characters of the same balanced fighting styles such as Goku, Vegeta and so on, getting stronger would inherently make them faster. And Kaioken is definitely linear but Super Saiyan has comparisons to an otherwise Kaioken x50. And of course, Freiza being comparable if not superior to a Kaioken x20 Goku while getting blitzed by an extremely casual SSJ Goku and his 100% form being able to sort of keep up with an almost serious Goku. I'm still in support of SSJ being a 50x multiplier for speed as well as AP.

 

[Chariot190]

To be fair, inflated speed via multipliers is a different issue altogether.
The speed getting inflated doesn't inherently effect whether or not the multiplier given is legit or not.

In this case, the multiplier is quite obviously something that happens and is blatantly meant to be, it's very clearly meant to be a 50x buff. It inflating the speed a fuckton is a different issue altogether, pretending the multiplier is false isn't gonna fix that, that's just pretending or being disingenuous and taking the problem out on the wrong thing.

And I say this while kinda agreeing the speed is kinda blown the **** out via multiplication (Not saying it's wrong before anyone jumps at me), but that's not really Super Saiyan's fault.

And if roided out speed is the issue, pretending SSJ is 20x+ instead of the actual 50x isn't gonna do anything about that anyway, it'll just be like a hundred 20x's instead of 50x's.

 

[Nierre]

To be fair, inflated speed via multipliers is a different issue altogether.
The speed getting inflated doesn't inherently effect whether or not the multiplier given is legit or not.

In this case, the multiplier is quite obviously something that happens and is blatantly meant to be, it's very clearly meant to be a 50x buff. It inflating the speed a fuckton is a different issue altogether, pretending the multiplier is false isn't gonna fix that, that's just pretending or being disingenuous and taking the problem out on the wrong thing.

And I say this while kinda agreeing the speed is kinda blown the **** out via multiplication (Not saying it's wrong before anyone jumps at me), but that's not really Super Saiyan's fault.

And if roided out speed is the issue, pretending SSJ is 20x+ instead of the actual 50x isn't gonna do anything about that anyway, it'll just be like a hundred 20x's instead of 50x's.

Well said.

I agree with Chariot on this.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah the scaling is pretty blatant, and so is the multipliers. Dragon Ball's scaling, as well as multipliers, are extremely in our faces and cannot be ignored unless we just throw the scaling out of the window and pretend that it doesn't exist

As for feats, we do have many feats of characters outspeeding other characters with multipliers, and many more statements to support that. You can't deny that:

Base Vegito > SSJ Goku, Post-RoSAT Base Gotenks > Pre-RoSAT SSJ Gotenks, Base Gotenks > SSJ Vegeta, Base Vegeta > Shin, Shin > SSJ Frieza Saga Goku

Now when putting the multipliers that what you get. You can not like it, you close your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist, but it does, and it all based on facts and no matter how anyone, staff or not, tries to twist it, there's no denying the scaling is solid

 

[KLOL506]

To be fair, inflated speed via multipliers is a different issue altogether.
The speed getting inflated doesn't inherently effect whether or not the multiplier given is legit or not.

In this case, the multiplier is quite obviously something that happens and is blatantly meant to be, it's very clearly meant to be a 50x buff. It inflating the speed a fuckton is a different issue altogether, pretending the multiplier is false isn't gonna fix that, that's just pretending or being disingenuous and taking the problem out on the wrong thing.

And I say this while kinda agreeing the speed is kinda blown the **** out via multiplication (Not saying it's wrong before anyone jumps at me), but that's not really Super Saiyan's fault.

And if roided out speed is the issue, pretending SSJ is 20x+ instead of the actual 50x isn't gonna do anything about that anyway, it'll just be like a hundred 20x's instead of 50x's.

I agree with this. Inflation doesn't mean much if the multiplier is officially stated so multiple times by WoG or by story, as long as the sources are official and consistent, who are we to say no?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I agree with this. Inflation doesn't mean much if the multiplier is officially stated so multiple times by WoG or by story, as long as the sources are official and consistent, who are we to say no?

Exactly. Some people may not like it, but in cases where it's this blatant and this in-our-faces with both the scaling and the multipliers, we can't deny the scaling

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the majority of our staff members here agree with AKM.

 

[AKM sama]

Let the speed scaling be it's own topic. This thread is simply for discussing whether Freeza's statement "If I put out about 50%, that is to say, half of my maximum power, I'll be able to turn you into space dust..."

is referring to his strength alone or speed too.

 

[Chariot190]

Well, the majority of our staff members here agree with AKM.

It's actually pretty mixed all things considered. There's staff who agree and disagree (Not withstanding the like two dozen non staff involved in this).

 

[KLOL506]

It's actually pretty mixed all things considered. There's staff who agree and disagree (Not withstanding the like two dozen non staff involved in this).

The staff I've messaged that were in the Supporters section of DB also have yet to respond.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Well, the majority of our staff members here agree with AKM.

in terms of staff im pretty sure ddm disagrees, damage agrees, and then another took a neutral stance
in terms of supporters most disagreed, and in terms of regular users, based off what i've seen most disagree

 

[Vizer04]

AKM seems to make sense, it's clear that Goku is faster in SSJ but to what degree is unquantifiable so it should only scale to x20 and not x50