The Super Saiyan Speed Multiplier

[Vizer04]

I disagree with OP FRA, their logic isn't flawed but as @GodlyCharmander said, it's a case by case basis and the Frieza fight definitely fits the criteria.

 

[AKM sama]

We have the obvious line at Chapter 249: "If my power level has risen, the obviously my speed has improved as well"

Was brought up before. And it means an increase in power level means increase in speed. Nothing about increase being linear. Increase in power level also means increase in strength, and doesn't mean it is linear either, or that they both happen by the same amount.

Chapter 257 gives us an implication given the context. After speedblitzing Dodoria the same way he did Cui, he says "My strength grew far beyond anything I could've dreamed of", which seems to be again, an implication that "strength" and "power" are universal terms for battle statistics.

What I said above applies here too.

Chapter 302, Freeza's power is stated to be far higher, and suddenly, he becomes too fast as well.

Chapter 304, after his power has grown again, Freeza immediately speedblizes everyone.

Chapter 305, after Vegeta reacted to Freeza's immense speed, Piccolo says: "He could see that attack? Have his abilities/power/strength grown this much?"
This has multiple translations, but the Japanese statement uses "実力", which is basically "true strength".

Same as above. Increase in power level means increase in strength, speed, durability, etc. which we already know. Nothing about the increase being same for all departments, which is also something we already know and accept in the wiki.

This is seen more clearly through the Kaioken, a technique deliberately stated to directly multiply one's physical power, speed, and endurance through Ki Manipulation, and the manga treats it as a direct Power Level multiplier as well.

Which is treated as an exception because it has a direct statement saying all stats increase by the same amount.

Where, while at Base, Goku has a Power Level of 8000, but by using Kaioken x4, thus, quadrupling all his stats, he has a Power Level of 32000, and so on.

This is also true for the Freeza Fight, also present in the last link, being at Base resulting in a Power Level of 3000000, but having 60000000 after using Kaioken x20, thus having 20 times his usual speed as well.

Power levels not being linear during this part of the story is debunked by the fact that Vegeta at 18000 is planet level and Freeza at 530000 is dwarf star level.

Talking about percentages, we have enough common sense to say that Freeza was a 2.5% of his power at the start of the fight, correct? (Matched with Base Goku)
It's just basic interpretation, as the percentages are aligned with Freeza's Power Level, 50% being 60 mil, and 100% being 120 mil, so 3 mil has to be 2.5%.

50% of my power doesn't necessarily mean 50% of my speed. You can operate at higher power level overall and still hold back your punches to only apply half of your full strength. The same boxer can use only half of his power on a kid by holding back his punches and the same boxer can go apeshit on another boxer, all the while maintaining the same durability and speed. Which is explained in the OP as to why Goku thought that Freeza wasn't lying about only using half of his power because he could sense him being more powerful than what he was experiencing in the attacks.

and given how linear the Power Levels were during the Freeza fight due to the inclusion of Kaioken

As I just gave an example earlier, power levels aren't linear in the Freeza saga, neither do we treat them as such for one saga. And kaioken is an exception for obvious reasons already mentioned.

The arguments for SSJ multiplying speed and strength similarly look more valid to me.

I am leaning toward disagreeing with the OP, from what I read.

I'd like to know for what reason exactly. Because a large part of the reason has to do with "let's treat battle power linearly" which we don't and never have. For that to be a valid argument, it has to be accepted in the wiki first and this is not the CRT for it. (And if someone can get this accepted, we can finally talk about how all the AP feats are outliers and why characters need to be downgraded because we stupidly decided to treat battle power increases linearly when no debating community does).

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

50% of my power doesn't necessarily mean 50% of my speed. You can operate at higher power level overall and still hold back your punches to only apply half of your full strength.

No, because what you are implying is that Frieza used his 100% speed while he only used 50% of his strength, which is: 1) False, since we clearly see Goku speedblitzing 50% Frieza but at 100% Frieza could contend with Goku's speed, and 2) This is literally not how ki suppression work. When someone is suppressing their full strength, they're also not as fast as in their full power, meaning it's not just pulling your punches.

The same boxer can use only half of his power on a kid by holding back his punches and the same boxer can go apeshit on another boxer, all the while maintaining the same durability and speed.

Again, this is wrong, since you're basically saying that Frieza was at 100% durability and speed all along and just chose to pull his punches while reducing just his strength, when we see it's clearly not the case, especially when Frieza's 100% power is his buffed form, rather than his normal appearance.

In fact what you're suggesting never happens in the show (and if you disagree, then provide example), as in all cases where a villain was holding back their full power, they also held back their full speed, so your argument is clearly wrong

Which is explained in the OP as to why Goku thought that Freeza wasn't lying about only using half of his power because he could sense him being more powerful than what he was experiencing in the attacks.

Um no. Goku realized Frieza wasn't bluffing as soon as Frieza begun to dominate him while Goku was still in base. And while yes, Goku can sense when someone holds back their full power, this is irrelevant to your argument, as the fact that Goku wasn't hit by Frieza's full strength, doesn't mean Frieza used his full speed

Again, you seem to imply that Frieza was using 100% of his speed with 50% of his strength, which is just wrong, and I explained why above

 

[AKM sama]

No, because what you are implying is that Frieza used his 100%

No. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said Freeza was operating at full speed. I always said that he doesn't necessarily use half of his speed because using half of his strength/power doesn't entail that. How much he uses is not up to me to decide because the manga has no information on it. Maybe he was using 2/3rd of his speed, or maybe he was using 3/4th of his max speed. Nobody knows. What we do know is that increasing strength by a 2x doesn't translate to the same 2x increase in speed, unless it is kaioken.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

No. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said Freeza was operating at full speed. I always said that he doesn't necessarily use half of his speed because using half of his strength/power doesn't entail that. How much he uses is not up to me to decide because the manga has no information on it.

Then if there's no information regarding it, then the option that would require the least assumptions is to assume that 50% of his power means that he'll also be at 50% speed. It could be not, but that would require much more assumptions and proofs that you didn't seem to provide, And if I'm wrong and you showed proof, then please show it to me

 

[Greenshifter]

1- the guidebooks states that SSJ is comparable to how KK works, besides the downfall and downsides of KK.

Could you post this scan again?

 

[AKM sama]

The option that requires least assumptions is to not assume anything in the first place. Because what you are suggesting is itself an assumption based on no grounds. And, as a matter of fact, by default on this wiki, we never treat a statement about using half of someone's power to mean they are also using half of their speed. We just say we don't know how much speed they are using. It's not our business to decide whether they are using 30% or 80% or 100% of their speed. We're simply not told, so it is not our business.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I've read the original post but I don't think I have the time to read 200+ arguments so can someone fill me in on the points of both sides

 

[Greenshifter]

The option that requires least assumptions is to not assume anything in the first place. Because what you are suggesting is itself an assumption based on no grounds. And, as a matter of fact, by default on this wiki, we never treat a statement about using half of someone's power to mean they are also using half of their speed. We just say we don't know how much speed they are using. It's not our business to decide whether they are using 30% or 80% or 100% of their speed. We're simply not told, so it is not our business.

Tbf that’s still an assumption. If it’s not an assumption it’d be a certainty, which it isn’t. I do agree that without further context 50% power does not mean 50% speed. But stuff like power being used as a general term for combat stats could help that interpretation.

 

[AKM sama]

But stuff like power being used as a general term for combat stats could help that interpretation.

Power is not used as a general term for all combat stats. Battle Power or Power Level is used for that. Power is used for strength, and speed is always used in distinction.

This will help.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Power is not used as a general term for all combat stats. Battle Power or Power Level is used for that. Power is used for strength, and speed is always used in distinction.

This will help.

In the original kaioken scans, Goku says that by amplifying his ki, his strength, speed and durability double as a result. This proves that both speed and power increase the same when the ki increases, like what happens with kaioken

 

[Vizer04]

Why don't we simply use a "likely" rating...

 

[Orange]

Could you post this scan again?

It has been brought up by DDM, so you preferably should ask him.

In the original kaioken scans, Goku says that by amplifying his ki, his strength, speed and durability double as a result. This proves that both speed and power increase the same when the ki increases, like what happens with kaioken

I'm pretty sure that 50% frieza was getting blitzed left and right by ssj, but upon going up to 100% he was able to hang up there with him, showing that indeed he was using 50% of his overall power. And I'm damn sure that the guides states amplifying or lowering one's ki/bartle power effects all stats.

 

[EmilioRory10]

Why don't we simply use a "likely" rating...

would it look good for a character to have 3 speed ratings in one key?

 

[AKM sama]

In the original kaioken scans, Goku says that by amplifying his ki, his strength, speed and durability double as a result. This proves that both speed and power increase the same when the ki increases, like what happens with kaioken

Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”

You amplify your ki ---> your power, speed, etc. become many times greater.

An unquantifiable amplification in ki (not necessarily multiplication, which has a different meaning), results in multiplication of all stats by the same amount. This statement only exists for kaioken, thus is true for it. Once again, we know that ki is measured in battle power and battle power does not scale linearly to all stats in a normal scenario. This is not up for debate. Normally, we don't treat a 2x increase in strength = a 2x increase in speed. Unless it is stated, as in the case of kaioken.

And this is me saying that for the 34566th time.

 

[Greenshifter]

Power is not used as a general term for all combat stats. Battle Power or Power Level is used for that. Power is used for strength, and speed is always used in distinction.

That obviously depends on the statement in question. Certain characters will say “increases power” when they mean “all stats” to be brief.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

could you provide evidence?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”

You amplify your ki ---> your power, speed, etc. become many times greater.

An unquantifiable amplification in ki (not necessarily multiplication, which has a different meaning), results in multiplication of all stats by the same amount. This statement only exists for kaioken, thus is true for it. Once again, we know that ki is measured in battle power and battle power does not scale linearly to all stats in a normal scenario. This is not up for debate. Normally, we don't treat a 2x increase in strength = a 2x increase in speed. Unless it is stated, as in the case of kaioken.

And this is me saying that for the 34566th time.

No. He obviously meant that his ki multiplied by two, given that he used the word "doubled" was used. And can you show where you took the scan from? You posted some text, but without the scan, they don't mean much

 

[Greenshifter]

could you provide evidence?

Goku going “wow this guy is really strong/his power is amazing” with guys like Beerus and Jiren when he actually means they’re superior in all stats to his current form.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Was brought up before. And it means an increase in power level means increase in speed. Nothing about increase being linear. Increase in power level also means increase in strength, and doesn't mean it is linear either, or that they both happen by the same amount.


What I said above applies here too.


Same as above. Increase in power level means increase in strength, speed, durability, etc. which we already know. Nothing about the increase being same for all departments, which is also something we already know and accept in the wiki.

You blantantly ignored what I was trying to propose. This was stated to contextualize my further argument.

You need to learn that arguments are not meant to be broken down in little segments, and stripped from their overall context. You answered nothing, you just stated something I literally addressed already, look:

Be aware that I am not claiming that you are against the idea that increase in power means increase in speed, I know you know that, not trying to strawman by any means, I am trying to contextualize my future point as well.

Which is treated as an exception because it has a direct statement saying all stats increase by the same amount.


Power levels not being linear during this part of the story is debunked by the fact that Vegeta at 18000 is planet level and Freeza at 530000 is dwarf star level.

I asked you to look at the word "mostly", and already addressed the inconsistency in my reply, "we are not scaling on rule of three, it is a case by case basis", and yes, it is accepted in the Wiki, as you explained, I will further explain that in the last part of this reply.

50% of my power doesn't necessarily mean 50% of my speed.

Context, and association logic indicates it does in this specific scenario. I gave you a reasoning for this conclusion, a "doesn't necessarily" reply is not a proper response, you address my conclusion rather than blantantly acting like I was commiting Black and White fallacy, when I was clearly not.

As I just gave an example earlier, power levels aren't linear in the Freeza saga, neither do we treat them as such for one saga. And kaioken is an exception for obvious reasons already mentioned.



I'd like to know for what reason exactly. Because a large part of the reason has to do with "let's treat battle power linearly" which we don't and never have. For that to be a valid argument, it has to be accepted in the wiki first and this is not the CRT for it. (And if someone can get this accepted, we can finally talk about how all the AP feats are outliers and why characters need to be downgraded because we stupidly decided to treat battle power increases linearly when no debating community does).

I don't see your point, I genuinely don't. If Kaioken, a direct Battle Power multiplier, is treated and accepted as the exception of the rule, then scenarios involving the Kaioken should be allowed to be reviewed, and argued for. Battle Power was linear during the Freeza fight due to Kaioken, thus, Freeza's Battle Power should be perfectly usable. That's just it.

You answered nothing about my actual point, and actually decided to answer isolated points picturing me as if I was strawmanning you, saying that you don't accept that "+power = +speed", which I blantantly didn't do, I addressed that you knew that already.

This is why you cannot just "debunk" isolated pieces of evidence when they clearly are part of a greater picture/argument, that's like, the most basic level of debating skills.


EDIT: You also seem to reply to the linear BP argument by pointing out one major flaw in AP, but I don't know how that disproves that BP were mostly linear besides that, I can't particularly think of any other major inconsistency.

 

[Orange]

No. He obviously meant that his ki multiplied by two, given that he used the word "doubled" was used. And can you show where you took the scan from? You posted some text, but without the scan, they don't mean much

I'm still confused, if ssj and kk work via amplifying/multiplying your ki, which effects all stats by the same amount that your ki got amplified/multiplied , and power level measures your overall Ki [expect if you are hiding it]. Thus frieza going from 50% to 100% would mean his ki was amplified by 2x, this is literally basic math, and the fact his power level went from 60 million to 120 million shows us that his entire ki output was amplified by 2x.

Heck, it's even mentioned that he was able to crush goku only by using his half capacity, and showing his overall power level in his 50% state only being 60 million.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

An unquantifiable amplification in ki (not necessarily multiplication, which has a different meaning)

It's implied that the amplification in ki is equivalent to the fold of kaioken. This is indicated when goku's power when fighting frieza jumps from 3 million to 60 million when using kaiokenx20
(and again we know that battle power measures ki)
EDIT: Super saiyan similarly amplifies battle power, just to a much higher extent than that of kaioken. We have these two things doing literally the same thing, but one doing it in a different way.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

actually based off what I've seen I don't see why there can't just be a likely rating

 

[GodlyCharmander]

actually based off what I've seen I don't see why there can't just be a likely rating

It already is.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

It already is.

yeah, why can't it just stay that way
power can easily be referring to speed, especially since speed increases along with power in dragon ball
isn't this literally the best example of a likely rating there can be? If it'd remove the speed entirely then it's a disagree from me

 

[Malomtek]

Why are so many people in this thread not able to understand that stats covered under the term "power level"/"battle power" don't necessarily scale equally to each other, or are amplified equally to each other, or even multiplied equally to each other? Or that even a multiplication of battle power doesn't necessarily cause an equivalent multiplication of stats?

This is why we shouldn't be going by multipliers to begin, but by feats done and scaling acquired in each form. Otherwise we get this annoying pedantry about the supposed intrinsic relationship between multiplied/amplified battle powers and multiplied/amplified stats, which one would think SSJ Grade 3 alone already debunked.

 

[EmilioRory10]

yeah, why can't it just stay that way
power can easily be referring to speed, especially since speed increases along with power in dragon ball
isn't this literally the best example of a likely rating there can be? If it'd remove the speed entirely then it's a disagree from me

the likely is from kaiokenx4 and kaiokenx10 thing, not ssj multiplier

 

[ZillertheBucko]

the likely is from kaiokenx4 and kaiokenx10 thing, not ssj multiplier

oh

 

[Greenshifter]

Heck, it's even mentioned that he was able to crush goku only by using his half capacity, and showing his overall power level in his 50% state only being 60 million.

Actually it said he’s using half of his capabilities. So that’s a 50% speed statement right there.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Or that even a multiplication of battle power doesn't necessarily cause an equivalent multiplication of stats?

Yes it does in the scenario we are discussing. Pay attention to what's being argued.

 

[SirAlex09]

Why are so many people in this thread not able to understand that stats covered under the term "power level"/"battle power" don't necessarily scale equally to each other, or are amplified equally to each other, or even multiplied equally to each other? Or that even a multiplication of battle power doesn't necessarily cause an equivalent multiplication of stats?

This is why we shouldn't be going by multipliers to begin, but by feats done and scaling acquired in each form. Otherwise we get this annoying pedantry about the supposed intrinsic relationship between multiplied/amplified battle powers and multiplied/amplified stats, which one would think SSJ Grade 3 alone already debunked.

SSJ Grade 3 directly pumps Ki into your muscles to solely increase your raw strength. Imo it can be compared to Dyspo's light speed mode. While the latter increases your speed, Grade 3 increases your raw strength. They are not Ki amps but rather forms of Ki application. And before you address it: Yes Trunks' Ki was stronger than it usually was but it was due to rage boost.

And concerning multipliers : We have two sort of examples.

a)One that supports the fact that a 2x increase in PL means a 2x in all Stats
b)The other one that implies that the increase is different from stat to stat but still higher than the increase in PL. ( Example Piccolo being only 80x more powerful than a Normal human PL wise but having speed and AP way beyond 80x normal humans)

With that being said , saying that SSJ is a 20x increase is beyond.... Nah I gotta stay nice and friendly. If anything one should argue that the increase in speed is beyond a 50x multiplier and not below based on all the cases AKM-sama listed.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

3000000 pl ----> 60000000 pl
20x power, 20x speed
3000000 pl ----> 150000000 pl
50x, uhhhhhh 20x speed.
Bruh.
"Kaioken is special"
Nope it multiplies ki which is battle power linearly the same thing SSJ does.
"Power levels aren't linear"
In some instances they are, and others they aren't. When they are linear, all stats increase by the same amount linearly, proving that the multiplier does indeed affect speed the same way it does AP.
We've been going in circles for 2 pages now about these exact points.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Besides, Grade 3 SSJ is a very specific case where the story goes out of its way to show that the speed DOESN'T linearly increase with the power, and with Dyspo, it's the exact opposite scenario, where it increases more than the power

 

[Orange]

I have the translation [albeit done via machine, but my knowledge on French should come handy] stated that freezea was able to crush goku only using half of his capacity, and that the ssj have 50x higher combat potential to that of a saiyans normal state. Two quite batlants statement that refers to all ki and physical abilities. And if anyone has any doubts, I can request for ot to be translated.

Actually it said he’s using half of his capabilities. So that’s a 50% speed statement right there.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I have the translation [albeit done via machine, but my knowledge on French should come handy] stated that freezea was able to crush goku only using half of his capacity, and that the ssj have 50x higher combat potential to that of a saiyans normal state. Two quite batlants statement that refers to all ki and physical abilities. And if anyone has any doubts, I can request for ot to be translated.

You have the scan? That will be very good to have

 

[Malomtek]

Yes it does in the scenario we are discussing. Pay attention to what's being argued.

Specifically in terms of Kaio-ken, which is treated as a special technique that puts significant strain on the body, especially with each higher multiplication. Kaio-ken's "everything is multiplied equally and by an exact number" properties (if it even should be interpreted as such) are clearly very specific to Kaio-ken and not much else.

SSJ Grade 3 directly pumps Ki into your muscles to solely increase your raw strength. Imo it can be compared to Dyspo's light speed mode. While the latter increases your speed, Grade 3 increases your raw strength. They are not Ki amps but rather forms of Ki application. And before you address it: Yes Trunks' Ki was stronger than it usually was but it was due to rage boost.

And concerning multipliers : We have two sort of examples.

a)One that supports the fact that a 2x increase in PL means a 2x in all Stats
b)The other one that implies that the increase is different from stat to stat but still higher than the increase in PL. ( Example Piccolo being only 80x more powerful than a Normal human PL wise but having speed and AP way beyond 80x normal humans)

With that being said , saying that SSJ is a 20x increase is beyond.... Nah I gotta stay nice and friendly. If anything one should argue that the increase in speed is beyond a 50x multiplier and not below based on all the cases AKM-sama listed.

Separating "ki amp" from "ki application" in this context is little more than a distinction without a difference.

Multiplication of battle power numbers really only amounts to a general, yet unquantifiable increase of stats (and each stat a bit differently) in the vast majority of cases, especially since the functions and relationships of power levels aren't even consistent within themselves, let alone actual stats like speed and strength.

 

[Orange]

You have the scan? That will be very good to have

I have it in french and Japanese.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Nice. Though translation will be even nicer

 

[Orange]

Nice. Though translation will be even nicer

I can put them in the translation request, but I doubt it will be translated in a fast way. Maybe DeepL could work? But since its machine translated, I doubt it will be used.

 

[Greenshifter]

I can put them in the translation request, but I doubt it will be translated in a fast way. Maybe DeepL could work? But since its machine translated, I doubt it will be used.

I mean I’ll just translate it. French is my secondary language (but I hate it at times). Hang on though, about to be New Year here.