The Super Saiyan Speed Multiplier

[AKM sama]

Battle Power was linear during the Freeza fight due to Kaioken, thus, Freeza's Battle Power should be perfectly usable. That's just it.

Well, I'd like to point out that the manga gives no battle power during the Freeza fight beyond his second form. All battle powers come from a guide. Even if we use those battle powers as being linear, we'd do it only for cases directly concerning kaioken. Because normally, if you say A's battle power is 120 million and B's battle power is 60 million, it wouldn't mean that A is exactly two times stronger and faster.
So while Base Goku's 3 million and KKx20 Goku's 60 million are good to use because they are a result of kaioken, saying that Freeza's 120 million should provide exactly two times boost for all stats because it is double of KKx20 Goku's 60 million is not, because it isn't a result of kaioken. If Goku actually went KKx40 and fought with Freeza, then this discussion wouldn't be happening.

You said battle power was linear during the Freeza fight due to kaioken, and it was linear only until 60 million because kaioken stopped being used after that.

Goku going “wow this guy is really strong/his power is amazing” with guys like Beerus and Jiren when he actually means they’re superior in all stats to his current form.

That is not implying that the word "power" is used to refer to all stats. It implies that someone who is more powerful, is generally superior in all other stats as well because more power generally also means more speed. And please provide the scans of the exact statement being used because Goku also says "his power and speed are amazing". Dragon Ball has always made a distinction between power and speed, and "power" has never been used to refer to all stats.

3000000 pl ----> 60000000 pl
20x power, 20x speed
3000000 pl ----> 150000000 pl
50x, uhhhhhh 20x speed.

More like:
3000000 pl ----> 60000000 pl as a result of kaioken
20x power, 20x speed because that is what kaioken does

3000000 pl ----> 150000000 pl as a result of super saiyan
more than 40x power (50 is a number we are settling on), and more than 20x speed

Power levels from the Daizenshuu are useless here. What matters is the transformation. We have no information about a Super Saiyan transformation being like a Kaioken stat booster.

I have the translation [albeit done via machine, but my knowledge on French should come handy] stated that freezea was able to crush goku only using half of his capacity, and that the ssj have 50x higher combat potential to that of a saiyans normal state.

What Freeza stated about half of his power in the manga is already translated by Herms, and that is what we use. What comes from a French guide after being fan translated isn't above that.

 

[Orange]

I mean I’ll just translate it. French is my secondary language (but I hate it at times). Hang on though, about to be New Year here.

French is my secondary language too, but I suck at it, tho I can understand some few stuff, hopefully I can help you translate it?

 

[Orange]

Well, I'd like to point out that the manga gives no battle power during the Freeza fight beyond his second form. All battle powers come from a guide. Even if we use those battle powers as being linear, we'd do it only for cases directly concerning kaioken. Because normally, if you say A's battle power is 120 million and B's battle power is 60 million, it wouldn't mean that A is exactly two times stronger and faster.
So while Base Goku's 3 million and KKx20 Goku's 60 million are good to use because they are a result of kaioken, saying that Freeza's 120 million should provide exactly two times boost for all stats because it is double of KKx20 Goku's is not, because it isn't a result of kaioken. If Goku actually went KKx40 and fought with Freeza, then this discussion wouldn't be happening.

You said battle power was linear during the Freeza fight due to kaioken, and it was linear only until 60 million because kaioken stopped being used after that.


That is not implying that the word "power" is used to refer to all stats. It implies that someone who is more powerful, is generally superior in all stats. And please provide the scans of the exact statement being used because Goku also says "his power and speed are amazing". Dragon Ball has always made a distinction between power and speed, and "power" has never been used to refer to all stats.


More like:
3000000 pl ----> 60000000 pl as a result of kaioken
20x power, 20x speed because that is what kaioken does

3000000 pl ----> 150000000 pl as a result of super saiyan
more than 40x power (50 is a number we are settling on), and more than 20x speed

Power levels from the Daizenshuu are useless here. What matters is the transformation.


What Freeza stated about half of his power in the manga is already translated by Herms, and that is what we use. What comes from a French guide after being fan translated isn't above that.

Why not? It's not like the guide isn't canon or official at all, it's just translated from Japanese to French or vice verse, we just gotta translate the French version, and wait for the Japanese one to get translated. And seeing how freiza' speed zoomed up when going to 100% , me and the supporters are inclined to believe his 50% statement refers to overall ki and physical abilities and not just raw power.

 

[AKM sama]

Because

1. Manga is above guide.

2. Herms is above fan translations.

So either we'll get both statements be similar, or we'll go with the former in case there is any discrepancy. Either way, getting it translated is a waste of time and effort, but you do you.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

More like:
3000000 pl ----> 60000000 pl as a result of kaioken
20x power, 20x speed because that is what kaioken does

3000000 pl ----> 150000000 pl as a result of super saiyan
more than 40x power (50 is a number we are settling on), and more than 20x speed

Power levels from the Daizenshuu are useless here. What matters is the transformation. We have no information about a Super Saiyan transformation being like a Kaioken stat booster

50x is the factual multiplier for SSJ, it's not something we are settling on.
Power levels from the daizenshuu are not useless, it's from the daizenshuu. What matters is the transformation, the multiplier of whom comes from the daizenshuu. Me and pokemon man have proven it's like kaioken, say, 15 times now.

 

[Vizer04]

I can't believe how many times i've changed my opinion during this whole discussion. I still think a "likely" rating is the best but it seems that no one would agree with that.

 

[Orange]

We do agree, well I do, I don't know about Anyone else tho

I can't believe how many times i've changed my opinion during this whole discussion. I still think a "likely" rating is the best but it seems that no one would agree with that.

 

[Orange]

Well, I'd like to point out that the manga gives no battle power during the Freeza fight beyond his second form. All battle powers come from a guide. Even if we use those battle powers as being linear, we'd do it only for cases directly concerning kaioken. Because normally, if you say A's battle power is 120 million and B's battle power is 60 million, it wouldn't mean that A is exactly two times stronger and faster.
So while Base Goku's 3 million and KKx20 Goku's 60 million are good to use because they are a result of kaioken, saying that Freeza's 120 million should provide exactly two times boost for all stats because it is double of KKx20 Goku's 60 million is not, because it isn't a result of kaioken. If Goku actually went KKx40 and fought with Freeza, then this discussion wouldn't be happening.

You said battle power was linear during the Freeza fight due to kaioken, and it was linear only until 60 million because kaioken stopped being used after that.


That is not implying that the word "power" is used to refer to all stats. It implies that someone who is more powerful, is generally superior in all other stats as well because more power generally also means more speed. And please provide the scans of the exact statement being used because Goku also says "his power and speed are amazing". Dragon Ball has always made a distinction between power and speed, and "power" has never been used to refer to all stats.


More like:
3000000 pl ----> 60000000 pl as a result of kaioken
20x power, 20x speed because that is what kaioken does

3000000 pl ----> 150000000 pl as a result of super saiyan
more than 40x power (50 is a number we are settling on), and more than 20x speed

Power levels from the Daizenshuu are useless here. What matters is the transformation. We have no information about a Super Saiyan transformation being like a Kaioken stat booster.


What Freeza stated about half of his power in the manga is already translated by Herms, and that is what we use. What comes from a French guide after being fan translated isn't above that.

What do you mean by settling on 50x? The guides states that it's 50x, the power levels shows that it's 50x, narratively it makes sense for it to be 50x.
40x or 20x is not downplaying, that's outright ignoring literally Everything for the sake of....uhhh nothing?
The fact that guides, the manga, the characters, heck enen goku himself states that KK works by amplifying ki, which ssj and most transformations do.

 

[Greenshifter]

“It goes about Freezer in his ultimate transformation. He crushes Son Goku while only fighting at half of his capabilities. But he has to use his full power when Son Goku appears as a Super Saiyan.”

 

[Orange]

“It goes about Freezer in his ultimate transformation. He crushes Son Goku while only fighting at half of his capabilities. But he has to use his full power when Son Goku appears as a Super Saiyan.”

Aight, we have our confirmation, sweet!
And yes, the daizenshuu is reliable [most of the times] since akira himself gave his approval if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Greenshifter]

Aight, we have our confirmation, sweet!
And yes, the daizenshuu is reliable [most of the times] since akira himself gave his approval if I'm not mistaken.

Get a thread where the Daizenshuu was accepted for a revision.

 

[Orange]

Get a thread where the Daizenshuu was accepted for a revision.

It was accepted for a thread that was discussing if goku solos or not-

 

[ZillertheBucko]

yeah I've been looking at this for some time now and it's pretty blatantly implied that it's a 50 times speed boost
"he used half of capability when he was 20 times faster and used his full capability when he went super saiyan"
"when my power increases so does my speed"
gee I wonder what possible number the super saiyan speed boost could be could be. It's not like it could be something higher than 20 times 2, oh wait we do have a number like that!

 

[ZillertheBucko]

this is one of those things that isn't explicitly stated because it's just so implied due to already established things that nobody would think it had to be said honestly
I disagree fra

 

[Malomtek]

We have no information about a Super Saiyan transformation being like a Kaioken stat booster.

And there's the rub.

The SSJ form clearly doesn't work like the Kaio-ken. It's not "forcing" a full multiplication of all Goku's stats like the Kaio-ken does. It doesn't put extreme strain on his body. Even Akira Toriyama said that he felt that SSJ was a 10x multiplier, and that "50x" was an exaggeration.

And people should stop using "Daizenshuu power levels" as an argument, as if Daizenshuu power levels aren't just as arbitrary and meaningless as they are in the canon manga.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

And there's the rub.

The SSJ form clearly doesn't work like the Kaio-ken. It's not "forcing" a full multiplication of all Goku's stats like the Kaio-ken does. It doesn't put extreme strain on his body. Even Akira Toriyama said that he felt that SSJ was a 10x multiplier, and that "50x" was an exaggeration.

Too bad that this statement is literally contradicted by what happens in canon. If Kaioken was really a 10 times boost only, then it would've been outclassed by Kaioken times 20 but as you can clearly see. This is not the case

I would also like you to show proof regarding your argument, since if your only argument is relying on an author statement that is contradicted by the story itself, then you need to try harder

 

[Chariot190]

Isn't the power levels of 100% freeza and Ssj1 Goku actually in the volume releases of the manga, like at the start of the volume? Pretty sure they got slapped in the actual manga.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Honestly I wonder where analytical predictions, intelligence and experience with ki come into play when discussing anti feats opposing the “Ki boosting speed” argument.

I glance through and just see a bunch of anti feats blatantly ignoring certain elements. Including the fact that outliers exists.

but I’m new here btw

 

[EmilioRory10]

Disagree with the op FRA

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

More like:
3000000 pl ----> 60000000 pl as a result of kaioken
20x power, 20x speed because that is what kaioken does

3000000 pl ----> 150000000 pl as a result of super saiyan
more than 40x power (50 is a number we are settling on), and more than 20x speed

What kaioken does is amplify energy/ki/battle power by the specified fold. As a result of that, strength, speed, durability, etc are increased.
Super saiyan is literally the exact same thing, it multiplies battle power by 50 times. The result should be the same thing? I would consider it completely bizarre to say "Strength x50. Durability x50. Energy x50. And then speed x20."

 

[ZillertheBucko]

4 page anniversary
anyways just to emphasize, if kaioken multiplies power and speed equally, and it has been stated in dragon ball Z that when strength increases and so does power, and if we know that super saiyana increases power by 50 times, and we know that frieza had to use 100% of his capabilities to fight him and still lost because 50 times is higher than 40 times, then the incredibly obvious conclusion is that there's a 50 times speed multiplier
I do not think this thread ever needed to exist

 

[Vietthai96]

To be fair, both side is not totally wrong though @.@

 

[ZillertheBucko]

To be fair, both side is not totally wrong though @.@

which is why there's a likely rating, so nothing should change

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You said battle power was linear during the Freeza fight due to kaioken, and it was linear only until 60 million because kaioken stopped being used after that.

Very apparent case of not using common sense and interpretation to go for the obvious solution for the sake of your argument. Yes, it was linear during the fight, therefore those associated with that linearity should be scaled accordingly.

Freeza went from ~3 mil to 60 mil, having his speed multiplied by 20x aligned with the percentage of power he was using (with the Databook confirming Freeza was using half his capabilities), but it magically stops being linear once Goku goes SSJ, and Freeza goes 100% during the exact same fight?

And that's the more reasonable argument for you? Not using what's being established in the very fight, and applying it? No, this seems to be a faulty interpretation done for the sake of your personal wishes.

You seem to wish it was not the case, for any reason I do not know, even though the contrare interpretation given the evidence is perfectly reasonable. Which is the reason why this is been met with unparalleled disagreement from unbiased, and biased, participants.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Freeza went from ~3 mil to 60 mil, having his speed multiplied by 20x aligned with the percentage of power he was using (with the Databook confirming Freeza was using half his capabilities), but it magically stops being linear once Goku goes SSJ, and Freeza goes 100% during the exact same fight?

To re-contextualize what I meant.

If we see a clear pattern, either if it's from a increase or anything, the safest is to assume the pattern follows through.

Being linear to 50%, then continuing to 100% is a better interpretation than it being linear until 50%, then the power-speed correlation just going wonky and thus making it unusable.

No, you have to prove that, give me evidence against the pattern I just proved existed. No one disputed my argument about how closely power and overall battle statistics are related, too.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I know this is redundant but I strongly disagree
I would also appreciate if some more staff would come to the same conclusion that the current assumption of a likely 50 times multiplier is fitting

 

[Malomtek]

Too bad that this statement is literally contradicted by what happens in canon. If Kaioken was really a 10 times boost only, then it would've been outclassed by Kaioken times 20 but as you can clearly see. This is not the case

What does the relationship between Kaio-ken multipliers have anything to do with the relationship between SSJ and Kaio-ken? And if you're talking about SSJ, I didn't say that Super Saiyan was a 10x multiplier, just that Akira Toriyama felt that way, as a supporting piece of evidence that further distinguishes between how Kaio-ken works and how SSJ works.

And I don't understand why so many people in here are taking the SSJ multiplier at face value, yet aren't doing the same for the SSJ2 or SSJ3 multipliers. Perhaps it's because the idea that SSJ2 Gohan stomped Perfect Cell with only twice his Mastered SSJ stats - his Mastered SSJ form previously being completely overpowered by Perfect Cell - is too much of an absurd position to take seriously. And I I can't help but remember that the Mastered SSJ form's multiplier should technically be lower than those of SSJ Grades 2 and 3, yet the overall power of the form is so much higher due to its mastery of the Super Saiyan's ki and minimalization of stamina loss, so there's an element of ki control/stamina which hyperfixation on power levels tend to miss. Sufficiently high ki control can incredibly amplify the effective force of even a low-level battle power, and the destructive force of even what would otherwise be the weakest attacks.

This all means that it is entirely possible for SSJ to have only a 10x multiplier, yet have an "disproportionate" ki control such that it outranks even a Kaio-ken x 20 in overall power.

Even the idea of Kaio-ken as a flat linear multiplicative boost in all stats is questionable, given the circumstances in which it is used. Remember how when Goku used Kaio-ken x 2, it almost completely failed against Vegeta, but when Goku used Kaio-ken x 3, which is literally just a 1.5x boost over x2, suddenly he was able to trash Vegeta with relative ease? There's also the issue of "overarching factors", such as the strain the technique puts on the body, and a more general "battle fatigue", making the Kaio-ken itself less and less effective with each usage. It would be absurd to assert that the Kaio-ken x 20 Goku used against Frieza while he was down and out would be just as effective as a hypothetical one he could have used when their fight was just beginning and he was still "fresh". It's clear what makes the Kaio-ken technique so effective is not the multiplier in itself, but the sudden spike in ki output it "forces" on one's body, relative to some multiplier. @AKM sama you should also consider this.

 

[AKM sama]

Being linear to 50%, then continuing to 100% is a better interpretation than it being linear until 50%, then the power-speed correlation just going wonky and thus making it unusable.

No, you have to prove that, give me evidence against the pattern I just proved existed. No one disputed my argument about how closely power and overall battle statistics are related, too.

What's linear is Goku's Kaioken. Not Freeza's percentages. Freeza using half if his power =/= Freeza using half of his speed. Freeza's battle power being half of its maximum =/= Freeza's speed is also half of its maximum. Goku is not even in this equation.

The equations in which Goku is, are these:

1. KKx20 Goku (60 mil) = 20x Base Goku (3 mil) in battle power

2. KKx20 Goku = 20x Base Goku in strength

3. KKx20 Goku = 20x Base Goku in speed

because he used kaioken.


While the equations for Freeza are:

4. Max Freeza (120 mil) = 2x Half-power Freeza (60 mil) in battle power

5. Max Freeza = 2x Half-Power Freeza in strength, because Freeza said so

6. Max Freeza = unquantifiably faster than Half-Power Freeza in speed

because he didn't use kaioken and said nothing about speed.


A 2x increase in battle power may result in a 1.5x increase in power/strength and 5x increase in speed. It's not consistent. And even if a 2x increase in battle power results in 2x increase in power, we don't assume that it is also going to be a 2x increase in speed or vice versa. It could be way higher or lower than 2x, because the relation is inconsistent. Unless of course we are explicitly told like in the case of Kaioken.

If we did that, we might as well start treating battle powers as being completely linear altogether, where First Form Freeza is only 29x stronger than Saiyan saga Vegeta.

I've said all I had to and I am just repeating myself. Both sides are. So if somebody wants to tally the input till now or wants more input for a decision to be made, go right ahead. I'd prefer not dragging it out for another 100 comments.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

What's linear is Goku's Kaioken. Not Freeza's percentages. Freeza using half if his power =/= Freeza using half of his speed. Freeza's battle power being half of its maximum =/= Freeza's speed is also half of its maximum. Goku is not even in this equation.

The equations in which Goku is, are these:

1. KKx20 Goku (60 mil) = 20x Base Goku (3 mil) in battle power

2. KKx20 Goku = 20x Base Goku in strength

3. KKx20 Goku = 20x Base Goku in speed

because he used kaioken.


While the equations for Freeza are:

4. Max Freeza (120 mil) = 2x Half-power Freeza (60 mil) in battle power

5. Max Freeza = 2x Half-Power Freeza in strength, because Freeza said so

6. Max Freeza = unquantifiably faster than Half-Power Freeza in speed

because he didn't use kaioken and said nothing about speed.


A 2x increase in battle power may result in a 1.5x increase in power/strength and 5x increase in speed. It's not consistent. And even if a 2x increase in battle power results in 2x increase in power, we don't assume that it is also going to be a 2x increase in speed or vice versa. It could be way higher or lower than 2x, because the relation is inconsistent. Unless of course we are explicitly told like in the case of Kaioken.

If we did that, we might as well start treating battle powers as being completely linear altogether, where First Form Freeza is only 29x stronger than Saiyan saga Vegeta.

I've said all I had to and I am just repeating myself. Both sides are. So if somebody wants to tally the input till now or wants more input for a decision to be made, go right ahead. I'd prefer not dragging it out for another 100 comments.

We literally have the Databook confirming it was half his capabilities, I proved "Power" can mean overall statistics, and Freeza's stats were linear until 50%. Consistency is not an argument, as case by case is still a thing.

This is all covered by contextualized argumentation that you never tackled properly. Either way, I'd also not like to drag this out, this was met with overwhelming disapproval, so I stand by my points.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

What does the relationship between Kaio-ken multipliers have anything to do with the relationship between SSJ and Kaio-ken? And if you're talking about SSJ, I didn't say that Super Saiyan was a 10x multiplier, just that Akira Toriyama felt that way, as a supporting piece of evidence that further distinguishes between how Kaio-ken works and how SSJ works.

No that tells nothing. That just means Akira was wrong, as his statement literally contradicts his entire story. No matter how you try to twist it, a 10 times multiplier < 20 times multiplier. You can't deny it more you can deny that 10 < 20

And I don't understand why so many people in here are taking the SSJ multiplier at face value, yet aren't doing the same for the SSJ2 or SSJ3 multipliers.

This is for another CRT, for now we're only talking about multipliers the wiki accept. We might tackle SSJ2 and SSJ3 later

Perhaps it's because the idea that SSJ2 Gohan stomped Perfect Cell with only twice his Mastered SSJ stats - his Mastered SSJ form previously being completely overpowered by Perfect Cell - is too much of an absurd position to take seriously.

This is probably true. I never believed SSJ2 was a times 2 multiplier either because of that

And I I can't help but remember that the Mastered SSJ form's multiplier should technically be lower than those of SSJ Grades 2 and 3, yet the overall power of the form is so much higher due to its mastery of the Super Saiyan's ki and minimalization of stamina loss, so there's an element of ki control/stamina which hyperfixation on power levels tend to miss. Sufficiently high ki control can incredibly amplify the effective force of even a low-level battle power, and the destructive force of even what would otherwise be the weakest attacks.

The reason why FPSSJ Goku was stronger than SSJG3 Trunks and Vegeta was because his base power was much higher than both of them.

This all means that it is entirely possible for SSJ to have only a 10x multiplier, yet have an "disproportionate" ki control such that it outranks even a Kaio-ken x 20 in overall power.

Headcanon. And how it can be a 10 times multiplier

Even the idea of Kaio-ken as a flat linear multiplicative boost in all stats is questionable, given the circumstances in which it is used. Remember how when Goku used Kaio-ken x 2, it almost completely failed against Vegeta, but when Goku used Kaio-ken x 3, which is literally just a 1.5x boost over x2, suddenly he was able to trash Vegeta with relative ease?

Vegeta had a power level of 18,000. Goku with kaioken times 2 was 16,000 and with Kaioken times 3 was 24,000. So obviously he overpowered Vegeta with KK3 but not with KK2.

Also, Post-Zenkai Vegeta had a power level of 24,000 as well, and he easily killed both Kiwi, who is equal to Saiyan Saga Vegeta, and Dodoria, who was stronger than Vegeta before

There's also the issue of "overarching factors", such as the strain the technique puts on the body, and a more general "battle fatigue", making the Kaio-ken itself less and less effective with each usage.

That is because the kaioken is extremely draining and dangerous to use. If someone uses it incorrectly, or too long, their body will break from the strain. This is why it's less effective with each usage, and becomes more dangerous to use

It would be absurd to assert that the Kaio-ken x 20 Goku used against Frieza while he was down and out would be just as effective as a hypothetical one he could have used when their fight was just beginning and he was still "fresh".

Goku was relatively fresh when he used Kaiomen times 10 and was still handily beaten by Frieza.

Besides, what you're saying got nothing to do to the multipliers. The reason why it might not be as effective (which until you prove it is the case, is your headcanon), is because Goku's base power weakens when he gets drained, so multiplier can only do so much if the base power is weak

It's clear what makes the Kaio-ken technique so effective is not the multiplier in itself, but the sudden spike in ki output it "forces" on one's body, relative to some multiplier.

Not really. The multiplier is there, but it can only do so much when base power is lacking. This is why Goku couldn't beat Frieza even with KK20, because his Base form was too weak for the multiplier to make up for it

@AKM sama you should also consider this.

This is appeal to authority, especially when you got nothing to prove what you say

 

[ZillertheBucko]

super saiyan being a times ten multiplier is the biggest joke I've seen on this website, stop using headcanon bro

 

[GodlyCharmander]

super saiyan being a times ten multiplier is the biggest joke I've seen on this website, stop using headcanon bro

Narrative contradicts it too.

x20 does nothing to a 50% Freeza

But a x10 beat his 100% form?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Narrative contradicts it too.

x20 does nothing to a 50% Freeza

But a x10 beat his 100% form?

he just has a really good gaming chair ki control man

 

[Orange]

Wha- if ssj was only 10x, that would make it weaker than kk20, which is just flat out stupid, and ssj being only 20x in speed is contradicted by the fact kk20x was unable to blitz or being above 50% In speed. Did we just ignore basic common sense at this point?

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

because he used kaioken.

All kaioken does is amplify ki/battle power by the specified fold. Then as a result all stats are increased. Super saiyan does the same thing.

 

[Zencha9]

Gonna Disagree for the reasons above

 

[Orange]

This is getting out of hand.
Ssj being a 20x increase in speed is the stupidest thing I have ever heard, that would literally make it equal to kk20, and all of us now kk20 at best was somewhat comparable to 50% freeza, that's at best.
Kk20 was somewhat at best comparable to 50% frieza, and if ssj was only 20x in speed, goku wouldn't be blitzing 50% space Hitler left abd right, this isn't an assumption, this is literally basic common sense. The guides [which akira approves and used in dbz page to justify the KK, SSJ and how ki scales to all stats normally] call Ssj a transformation that increases your battery potential/ power 50x that of a normal saiyan, the guides also states that frieza was only using half of his capacity, which is noted in the manga, Frieza went from getting blitz in 50% to hanging out with goku in 100%, which goes well with the fact that ssj is 2.5x that of kk20 or 50x of goku's normal state.
At this point, AKM is literally ignoring everything in order to justify his headcanon about Ssj only being 20x in speed or not being 50x on speed.

 

[Vietthai96]

While i agree back then that we dismiss SSJ being precisely x50 speed did make sense, SSJ being just x20 or slightly above that is blatantly wrong, it should be at least far above x20 of Kaioken as Goku KKx20 doesn't do anything to a half-hearted Frieza who doesn't actually use 50% of his power, he even joke around, and only got slightly damaged from x20 kamehameha, but SSJ Goku blitzed him to oblivion, so it should be far above x20

 

[Antvasima]

I've said all I had to and I am just repeating myself. Both sides are. So if somebody wants to tally the input till now or wants more input for a decision to be made, go right ahead. I'd prefer not dragging it out for another 100 comments.

i am personally fine with AKM's conclusions, but don't know what other staff members think.

 

[Orange]

If 4 staff plus 99% of the supporters disagree against this, yet it still being implimneted, it just shows that regular users, that happens to be knowledgeable about a verse are totally useless, their opinions is less than that of a staff that doesn't know about a verse, it just goes from "Well the actually knowledge users agree/disagree, we should trust thier opinions" to "two staffs agreed/disagreed, we should trust their opinions" and the worst offenders is, the staff being knowledgeable or not knowledgeable doesn't matter, as long as there are staffs, which just turns the entire thing into popularity status contest.