Gilad_Hyperstar
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Donating money to the wiki I guess. There was a thread about it a while ago
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The Super Saiyan Speed Multiplier
- Thread starter AKM sama
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Actually, if frieza in his 100% wasn't faster than his 50% by two times [basic math] he would be constantly be tagged by Kk20 [he only got tagged because he was surprised] and if SSJ wasn't a 50x increase in speed, goku wouldn't be able to effortlessly dodge his death beams in close/medium range, no?
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Yes, since even with Kaioken times 20 Goku was barely tagging 50% Frieza, but with SSJ he completely blitzed him and outspeeded him even when Frieza used 100% of his power
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Seems like basic logic to me.
1-Ssj stated to increase your battle power by 50x. Battle power here means all of your physical and ki abilities and attributes [Such as speed, AP, Dura, Ki manipulation etc...].
2-Goku while in kk20 was barely tagging 50% Lizard Hitler, yet with SSJ he was blitzing and dodging beams like nothing.
3-100% frieza is 2x stronger and faster than 50% frieza, it absolutely makes no sense for him to not get faster and or stronger [100%, 50% ..refers to his battle power overall, aka he is using 50% or 100% of his physical and ki attributes and abilities].
4-Goku went from 3 million to 150 million battle power, aka a 50x increase [Yes, power levels aren't accurate , this is more of a supporting argument], battle power as established earlier refers to all ki and physical abilities and attributes.
5-Vegeta stating that increase in power means increase in speed, and in general increas in ki increases speed, power and dura [minus outliers ofcourse].
Gilad_Hyperstar
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100% Frieza also increases his speed from his 50% form, as he went from being blitzed by SSJ Goku to being able to contend with Goku's speed. This proves that Frieza's full power form also increases his speed, and since his strength is multiplied by two, it's logical to assume his speed would increase by the same amount
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I agree with Stefano and Nullflowerblush, the Ssj is a power multiplier and not just a multiplier of pure brute strength, and as Vegeta stated speed increases along with power.
Ssj Goku blitzed 50% Frieza, who was superior to his Kaioken 20x, while it doesn't necessarily mean a 2x direct multiplier, it greatly supports it.
Having the Ssj be a 50x strength multiplier and 20x speed multiplier would not only be a deterrent, but would ignore the most basic feats. 100% Frieza actually keeping up with Ssj Goku also supports the idea that his speed doubled as well, and not just his raw strength.
The idea itself seems even ridiculous to me, and the things you said about the speed multiplier, you might as well say the same thing about the 50x strength multiplier.
Ssj Goku blitzed 50% Frieza, who was superior to his Kaioken 20x, while it doesn't necessarily mean a 2x direct multiplier, it greatly supports it.
Having the Ssj be a 50x strength multiplier and 20x speed multiplier would not only be a deterrent, but would ignore the most basic feats. 100% Frieza actually keeping up with Ssj Goku also supports the idea that his speed doubled as well, and not just his raw strength.
The idea itself seems even ridiculous to me, and the things you said about the speed multiplier, you might as well say the same thing about the 50x strength multiplier.
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Same.
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Kaio-Ken is as linear as it gets, even more so than SSJ. This is straight-up undeniable.
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Yeah, there's a difference between dealing with a high-speed object miles away and dealing with the high speed object at melee range.
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- Thread starter
- #51
Once again, nobody denied that speed increases with power. Nobody denied that SSJ Goku is faster than a Freeza who was using only half of his strength to beat up Goku. Nobody denied that SSJ provides a greater than 20x boost in speed.
Just because it provides a 50x boost in strength, does not mean the boost is same for speed. Unlike the kaioken, nothing mentions that SSJ increases all stats by the same amount. And just because Freeza starts using twice as much strength against SSJ Goku doesn't mean his speed also increases two-fold when all he was doing was pulling his punches.
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It's pretty evident that it does, what?
100% frieza started fighting better and was faster, it was clearly obvious, while 50% frieza was getting ragdolled and blitzed all over the place.
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Which is wrong in this case, because look above, Frieza couldn't do jackshit in 50% form against SSJ Goku and had to go 100% to even the odds before getting capped by higher stamina losses, that and the fact that the 50x multiplier is outright stated to be applied to battle power as a whole in the Daizenshuu, this isn't the "half my strength" Android 17 scenario where he's only using it to refer to how he blew up Gohan's arm where speed would be irrelevant.
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Also wrong because once Goku went SSJ, this was no longer a matter of pulling punches, Frieza outright couldn't keep up in the speed department either.
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Do people not remember after frieza went 100% he instantly blitzed and punched goku in the stomach? 50% frieza was the one who was getting blitzed beforehand, the speed upgrade is so obvious.
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Did you forget that the SSJ is stated to be a 50x increase for "BATTLE POWER". The fact that goku's power level went from 3 million to 150 million is also a supporting evidence for 50x power increase, the fact that 50% power frieza and 100% frieza was getting ragdolled the entire fight. Heck, if it was only "20x for speed and 50x for other attributes", wouldn't it be actually mentioned in the story or the data books?
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Also, wasn't goku dodging His death beams, something he couldn't do in KK20? Or the fact he was confident in That even if frieza went to 100% it won't he enough?
Gilad_Hyperstar
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50% Frieza was outspeeding even Kaioken times 20 Goku, and SSJ Goku completely blitzed that Frieza. However, once Frieza used his full power, he was able to keep up with Goku despite being blitzed previously. The increase from 50% to 100% is two times, and since we know his speed increases as well, it's should be logically assumed that Frieza's speed increased alongside his strength, which also supports Vegeta's statement when battling Kiwi
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Yes, yes he was, Frieza was literally shocked and said "HE... HE DODGED IT!?" at this.
Then he fired an assload of beams into Goku and Goku kept dodging and finally he taunted Frieza to hit him once, Frieza did, but only after Goku willingly allowed him to, then taunting Frieza even more that a planet-buster like him can't even destroy a small man like Goku.
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- #61
We don't consider battle power increases as linear either. 2x BP doesn't mean 2x strength and 2x speed. This is something that is only true for kaioken.
Stefano4444
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It literally show to be the case, i don't see how much more proof you need at this point, unless you can prove that Frieza wouldn't have need to get that fast to follow Goku's movements, which its wrong since 50% Frieza was getting speedblitzed during the entire fight.
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I'm sorry, what? Where's your proof for this? We already showed this to not be the case.
SSJ's multiplier is as clear-cut as Kaio-Ken's in-verse statements to increase speed, strength and so on. Daizenshuu does this for both Kaio-Ken and SSJ, while Kaio-Ken has additional story support. Both are enough evidence in their own right.
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100% full power is two times 50% power, this is literally basic math, unless DB doesn't follow common sense and math, in that case, everyone gets resistance to logic and law and physics manipulation, and everyone is immeasurable speed because they transcend math which is a deciding factor In speed.
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I remember the panel, after it goku made his "I am" speech, or before it? He was tanking death beams and dodging them left and right.
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- Thread starter
- #66
What proof? We have never considered battle power to apply linearly to all stats. Stats increase with BP, sure. But not linearly.
First of all, "50% Freeza" only refers to a Freeza who is using half of his power/strength. That doesn't mean he was using half of his speed. In fact, as Nullflower and the OP pointed out, Freeza was actually operating at a higher power level which made Goku realize that he wasn't bluffing about using only half of his strength.
Secondly, the Freeza that gets speed blitzed is definitely slower than SSJ Goku. And he becomes faster by an unquantifiable amount when he starts using his maximum. Just like how SSJ Goku becomes unquantifiably faster than his kaioken x20 self.
In strength, yes. We are not talking about strength.
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So let me get this straight, SSJ is stated to increase your battle power To 50x it's original , and since battle power covers all Physical and ki attributes, they would be increased by 50x, it's compared to Kk as it lasts longer and doesn't hurt your body much, meaning that it works the same without Kk drawbacks, it increased goku's Power level from 3 million to 150 million, an obvious 50x increase [and power levels are literally battle power, thus they cover all physical and ki attributes, baring some outliers]. Frieza using full of his battle power, would obviously be 2x stronger and faster than his half power self.
Yet it's still...unqualifiable? You are literally ignoring basic math, context, the power system, the canon definition of SSJ and battle power, ignoring how ki works and how the word "Full power, half power" is used in DBZ and in fiction.....what? I'm sorry but this is getting ridiculous.
Yet it's still...unqualifiable? You are literally ignoring basic math, context, the power system, the canon definition of SSJ and battle power, ignoring how ki works and how the word "Full power, half power" is used in DBZ and in fiction.....what? I'm sorry but this is getting ridiculous.
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Then explain why 50% Frieza got badly outsped by SSJ Goku at every scenario and could only match up with 100% before stamina loss kicked in.
Because he isn't 100% there, he only becomes that after he gives his infamous "5 minute and Namek goes boom"
Not just strength, speed too. Check where Goku casually side-walks all of Frieza's death beams.
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Simply because the former was slower and the latter was faster. I never said Freeza was using his full speed against kaioken x20 Goku. He was obviously not using his max speed at the time, which is unquantifiably higher as we see later against SSJ Goku.
By 100%, you mean max power Freeza and I agree. Doesn't mean he becomes exactly 2x faster simply because he started using his maximum power.
A speed increase doesn't necessarily mean a 2x speed increase. Once again, the relation is NOT LINEAR. 2x strength increase =/= 2x speed increase. 2x BP increase =/= 2x speed increase. This is something only true for kaioken because we have a direct statement.
So unless there is a direct statement about SSJ being a 50x boost to strength, speed and durability, it will not be treated the same way as kaioken.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Speed increase goes hand in hand with power increase. Vegeta's statement to kiwi show this clearly.
There's also nothing special about the kaioken. It's just a way to increase BP, which according to Goku, raises all of his stats, including speed. Super Saiyan isn't any different than this in terms of multiplier (and in the only cases where the speed doesn't increase linearly, the story outright says it such as with SSJ Grade 3)
There's also nothing special about the kaioken. It's just a way to increase BP, which according to Goku, raises all of his stats, including speed. Super Saiyan isn't any different than this in terms of multiplier (and in the only cases where the speed doesn't increase linearly, the story outright says it such as with SSJ Grade 3)
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- Thread starter
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And for the 7537th time, the relation is not said to be linear. An increase =/= linear increase. Vegeta never said all stats increase by the same amount. He just said that all stats increase. And that is it. Why is it so hard to get?
There is. It has a direct statement about increasing all stats by the same amount, which nothing else in the series has.
The story outright says it because it goes against Vegeta's previous statement and the established mechanics. Because Grade 3 does not increase speed with increase in BP. There is nothing about "linearity" here.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Sematics. And while Vegeta don't say that, Goku says this thing when using kaioken, which is just a way to increase battle power
No. Goku says that the kaioken is just a technique that allow him to increase his battle power and that's it. There's nothing that separates kaioken from other techniques that allow the fighters to increase their battle power. Besides, again, Vegeta stated that when his battle power rose, so did his speed. Combine that with Goku's statement and you get that the speed increase linearly. In fact the only reason why BP are not used are because Frieza had his feat
But you're forgetting we're not dealing with Grade 3. You are saying this about Grade 1 SSJ
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If you think the purpose of kaioken is just to double the battle power then you need to reread the saiyan saga and rewatch the Hit fight because Goku explicitly says that it is a technique that doubles/multiplies power, speed, defensive force and fighting abilities. Not that it's a technique to double someone's battle power.
And I am not saying that (what I said about Grade 3) about Grade 1. Grade 1 functions normally. Grade 3 is a special case. And so is Kaioken. You seem to have comprehended what I am saying incorrectly.
And I am not saying that (what I said about Grade 3) about Grade 1. Grade 1 functions normally. Grade 3 is a special case. And so is Kaioken. You seem to have comprehended what I am saying incorrectly.
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Even without going full speed 50% Frieza while holding back was faster than KKx20 Goku. Going to full power AKA 100% would logically increase his speed to twice what he was using against KKx20 Goku.
Which is BS because clearly the 50% Frieza who obviously blitzed KKx20 Goku was not only getting laughed at by SSJ Goku but was outright being taunted to try and hit him, and only after going 100% was he actually able to go on par with Goku.
Again, not the case with Frieza. 50% Frieza that was swifter than KKx20 Goku got blitzed by SSJ Goku, so Frieza went 100% to sort of keep up with SSJ Goku but ultimately stamina loss ****** him over.
Bruh, this is going to semantics at this point. Battle power by default includes strength, speed and durability as a whole to be connected directly, to suggest otherwise that they wouldn't get linear boosts would require even more evidence, especially when the Daizenshuu outright states ki power levels to be tied to all fighting aspects and that an increase in power levels increases their fighting capability proportionally due to all of them being tied to the user's ki level and usage prowess, this is especially true for flight.
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No. For the 75867th time, 2x strength increase =/= 2x speed increase.
50% Freeza is referring to a Freeza who is using half of his strength. Doesn't mean he was using half of his speed. SSJ Goku is still faster than whatever speed Freeza was using. And after going all out, Freeza was able to match SSJ Goku which implies an unquantifiable increase in speed, not necessarily two times.
And we don't use battle power linearly. We never have. You know this. If we did, the Piccolo who blew up the moon would be exactly 80x stronger, faster and more durable than a normal human. We also don't take any statement about multipliers from outside the manga as valid. So what the daizenshuu says is irrelevant. Or we'd also be using multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 too. The only reason we considered the use of SSJ multiplier for strength (which was originally accepted to be 40x) is not because it was stated in some guide, but because it is evident in the manga through kaioken and Freeza's statement.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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All of those increases are happening BECAUSE the power level is increasing. Goku literally said it that by amplifying his ki (a.k.a raising his power level), he also increases his power level. Krillin and Gohan confirm that too
Then why are you mentioning Grade 3 as if I implied Grade 3 increases speed like Grade 1? You also interperted what I said incorrectly too, as I clearly said that normally increase in power comes hands in fands with an increase in speed by the same amount unless stated otherwise (Grade 3 SSJ for example). Kaioken is a proof for that, and as kaioken is just a technique that amplifies one's battle power, and thus also doubles strength, speed and durability. There's nothing special about it.
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For the millionth time, this is not the case with Frieza.
No.
Speed is directly tied to one's size of ki and level of skill, much like brute force power. Battle power is the physical strength, speed and all other attributes combined.
Bruh
100% / 50% is 2x, this is painfully obvious. Also, look at the scan above. What you're assuming is that he can use the speed from his more powerful form in his lower-rated form, which would require even more evidence. They can't borrow speed from other forms like this. They can only control the speed and power that they are granted by the transformations they use, they can't use anything outside of that.
False equivalence, battle power is not the same thing as power level. Power level is the number-based metric, battle power has no unit to it whatsoever.
Since when was this even accepted?
By that logic we might as well axe the statements that say that speed and power are directly tied to one's ki amount and skill, which is obviously not true.
We didn't just consider it for strength, we considered it for speed as well. You were on that CRT.
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How is going from 50% to 100% isn't a two times increase!? This is literally basic 5 garde math, you literally don't need exposition or Some god forsaken knowledgeable, this is literal simple applicable logic-
Frieza is using 50% of his overall full power [and when he went 100% he got stronger and faster] thus using Literal simple logic, his 100% would be double that of 50%, because..100% is double that of 50%.
Also Whenever goku goes to any form, his ki is law noted to be higher. And higher ki=higher stats. Thus increasing your battle power, aka Ki, will increase your stat. And since Ssj increases battle power via 50x, aka it increases ki via 50x, aka it increases your stat via 50x. Heck, Ssj was compared to Kk on how it functions, it's works similar without the drawbacks [Thanks to DDM who pointed it out].
This isn't a matter of interpretation, this is matter of ignoring literal logic, common sense, basic math, canon statements, author's intent for a favour of your headcanon.
Frieza is using 50% of his overall full power [and when he went 100% he got stronger and faster] thus using Literal simple logic, his 100% would be double that of 50%, because..100% is double that of 50%.
Also Whenever goku goes to any form, his ki is law noted to be higher. And higher ki=higher stats. Thus increasing your battle power, aka Ki, will increase your stat. And since Ssj increases battle power via 50x, aka it increases ki via 50x, aka it increases your stat via 50x. Heck, Ssj was compared to Kk on how it functions, it's works similar without the drawbacks [Thanks to DDM who pointed it out].
This isn't a matter of interpretation, this is matter of ignoring literal logic, common sense, basic math, canon statements, author's intent for a favour of your headcanon.
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Only the DB Super Exciting Guide AFAIK has extra multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 alongside the 50x SSJ Multiplier, in Daizenshuu only the 50x SSJ multiplier is present as shown in the scans presented by Nullflower, which the DB Super Exciting Guide just repeats.
That's two sources for the SSJ's 50x multiplier, and it's more consistent than the SSJ2 and 3 multipliers.
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Yeah, and Kaioken is literally the only technique where this relation between increase in ki and strength/speed/durability is said to be linear. And that is why we treat kaioken as a linear multiplier for all stats. Kaioken is an EXCEPTION. If you don't want to treat kaioken as an exception, then you are conceding to the fact that Moon level and relativistic Piccolo is only 80x stronger and faster than a normal human.
And I said:
the relation is not said to be linear. An increase =/= linear increase. Vegeta never said all stats increase by the same amount. He just said that all stats increase. And that is it.
You failed to explain why.
Again, doesn't mean it increases by the same amount as strength and durability. An increase in all stats =/= all stats increase by same amount.
In strength. Because that 50% statement only refers to strength. Read the OP again.
I never once said that Freeza was using the his maximum speed while using half of his power.
I am sorry, what? Battle power and power level are the same. Farmer with shotgun has a battle power of 5. Farmer with shotgun has a power level of 5. The guide calls it battle power. The dub calls it power level.
Since always considering we never used multipliers for SSJ1 or SSJ2 or SSJ3 from any guidebooks. We initially used to use 40x for SSJ1 based on the manga alone.
We don't need to axe it because it is true. But for the 12427380th time, it does not mean that strength and speed both increase by the same amount with increase in ki. Just because someone gets exactly 5x stronger, does not mean they also get 5x faster. It just means they get faster by an unquantifiable amount. It can be more than 5, or less than 5, or equal to 5. But we don't assume anything unless we are told, like in the case of kaioken.
I am not a fan of repeating myself again and again, and seeing as neither party wants to concede, I'd just call other staff members.
So far, 4 staff members (1 bureaucrat, 2 admins, 1 thread mod) are in agreement with the OP and 1 staff member (1 admin) is against it.
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