Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,379
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Donating money to the wiki I guess. There was a thread about it a while ago> This is off topic but what is "supporter" and what does it do? and how do you get it? <
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Donating money to the wiki I guess. There was a thread about it a while ago> This is off topic but what is "supporter" and what does it do? and how do you get it? <
Actually, if frieza in his 100% wasn't faster than his 50% by two times [basic math] he would be constantly be tagged by Kk20 [he only got tagged because he was surprised] and if SSJ wasn't a 50x increase in speed, goku wouldn't be able to effortlessly dodge his death beams in close/medium range, no?Again you assume that he was 50% statements were only referring to just physical strength and destructive power, but this prove wrong by 100% Frieza show to have got faster as well.
You can keep saying that nothing suggest that 100% Frieza got precisely 2x faster, but the same can be say with AP, how do you know if 100% Frieza got precisely 2x stronger as well?
And no, jumps between tiers due of feats/scaling are not solid evidence for justify multipliers.
Yes, since even with Kaioken times 20 Goku was barely tagging 50% Frieza, but with SSJ he completely blitzed him and outspeeded him even when Frieza used 100% of his powerActually, if frieza in his 100% wasn't faster than his 50% by two times [basic math] he would be constantly be tagged by Kk20 [he only got tagged because he was surprised] and if SSJ wasn't a 50x increase in speed, goku wouldn't be able to effortlessly dodge his death beams in close/medium range, no?
Seems like basic logic to me.Yes, since even with Kaioken times 20 Goku was barely tagging 50% Frieza, but with SSJ he completely blitzed him and outspeeded him even when Frieza used 100% of his power
Same.I'm inclined to agree with Stefanno and NullFire here. It's contradicted by the fact that in SSJ form, he was blitzing 50% Frieza without even trying where as 100% Frieza was able to semi keep up with his SSJ form. I agree that every other "Half my power" statement would only refer to AP and not speed, but in this case, 100% Frieza is clearly a lot faster than 50% Frieza.
Kaio-Ken is as linear as it gets, even more so than SSJ. This is straight-up undeniable.Not saying all AP increases increase speed accordingly, but Kaioken literally does both equally. And realistically, given the KE = 0.5 * M * V^2 it would imply it takes an X^2 AP multiplier to multiply speed by X, but Kaioken clearly does not follow this formula. But increasing strength has always meant in increase in speed to some extent regardless. And it really doesn't get much more blatant than Frieza's example. And Kaizenshuu even calls Super Saiyan basically the same thing as a Kaioken x50 that uses up less energy consumption and lasts longer than Kaioken.
Yeah, there's a difference between dealing with a high-speed object miles away and dealing with the high speed object at melee range.Seeing something doesn't mean being able to fight it. You can see an airplane flyiing from far away at 700 kilometers per hour, but a person that will strike you at that speed will absolutely blitz you. Also, PIS exists too
Once again, nobody denied that speed increases with power. Nobody denied that SSJ Goku is faster than a Freeza who was using only half of his strength to beat up Goku. Nobody denied that SSJ provides a greater than 20x boost in speed.I agree with Stefano and Nullflowerblush, the Ssj is a power multiplier and not just a multiplier of pure brute strength, and as Vegeta stated speed increases along with power.
Ssj Goku blitzed 50% Frieza, who was superior to his Kaioken 20x, while it doesn't necessarily mean a 2x direct multiplier, it greatly supports it.
Having the Ssj be a 50x strength multiplier and 20x speed multiplier would not only be a deterrent, but would ignore the most basic feats. 100% Frieza actually keeping up with Ssj Goku also supports the idea that his speed doubled as well, and not just his raw strength.
The idea itself seems even ridiculous to me, and the things you said about the speed multiplier, you might as well say the same thing about the 50x strength multiplier.
It's pretty evident that it does, what?Once again, nobody denied that speed increases with power. Nobody denied that SSJ Goku is faster than a Freeza who was using only half of his strength to beat up Goku. Nobody denied that SSJ provides a greater than 20x boost in speed.
Just because it provides a 50x boost in strength, does not mean the boost is same for speed. And just because Freeza starts using twice as much power against SSJ Goku doesn't mean his speed also increases two-fold.
Which is wrong in this case, because look above, Frieza couldn't do jackshit in 50% form against SSJ Goku and had to go 100% to even the odds before getting capped by higher stamina losses, that and the fact that the 50x multiplier is outright stated to be applied to battle power as a whole in the Daizenshuu, this isn't the "half my strength" Android 17 scenario where he's only using it to refer to how he blew up Gohan's arm where speed would be irrelevant.Just because it provides a 50x boost in strength, does not mean the boost is same for speed. And just because Freeza starts using twice as much power against SSJ Goku doesn't mean his speed also increases two-fold.
Also wrong because once Goku went SSJ, this was no longer a matter of pulling punches, Frieza outright couldn't keep up in the speed department either.when all he was doing was pulling his punches.
Did you forget that the SSJ is stated to be a 50x increase for "BATTLE POWER". The fact that goku's power level went from 3 million to 150 million is also a supporting evidence for 50x power increase, the fact that 50% power frieza and 100% frieza was getting ragdolled the entire fight. Heck, if it was only "20x for speed and 50x for other attributes", wouldn't it be actually mentioned in the story or the data books?Once again, nobody denied that speed increases with power. Nobody denied that SSJ Goku is faster than a Freeza who was using only half of his strength to beat up Goku. Nobody denied that SSJ provides a greater than 20x boost in speed.
Just because it provides a 50x boost in strength, does not mean the boost is same for speed. Unlike the kaioken, nothing mentions that SSJ increases all stats by the same amount. And just because Freeza starts using twice as much strength against SSJ Goku doesn't mean his speed also increases two-fold when all he was doing was pulling his punches.
Also, wasn't goku dodging His death beams, something he couldn't do in KK20? Or the fact he was confident in That even if frieza went to 100% it won't he enough?Also wrong because once Goku went SSJ, this was no longer a matter of pulling punches, Frieza outright couldn't keep up in the speed department either.
Yes, yes he was, Frieza was literally shocked and said "HE... HE DODGED IT!?" at this.Also, wasn't goku dodging His death beams, something he couldn't do in KK20? Or the fact he was confident in That even if frieza went to 100% it won't he enough?
We don't consider battle power increases as linear either. 2x BP doesn't mean 2x strength and 2x speed. This is something that is only true for kaioken.Which is wrong in this case, because look above, Frieza couldn't do jackshit in 50% form against SSJ Goku and had to go 100% to even the odds before getting capped by higher stamina losses, that and the fact that the 50x multiplier is outright stated to be applied to battle power as a whole in the Daizenshuu, this isn't the "half my strength" Android 17 scenario where he's only using it to refer to how he blew up Gohan's arm where speed would be irrelevant.
It literally show to be the case, i don't see how much more proof you need at this point, unless you can prove that Frieza wouldn't have need to get that fast to follow Goku's movements, which its wrong since 50% Frieza was getting speedblitzed during the entire fight.Just because it provides a 50x boost in strength, does not mean the boost is same for speed. And just because Freeza starts using twice as much power against SSJ Goku doesn't mean his speed also increases two-fold.
I'm sorry, what? Where's your proof for this? We already showed this to not be the case.We don't consider battle power increases as linear either. 2x BP doesn't mean 2x strength and 2x speed.
100% full power is two times 50% power, this is literally basic math, unless DB doesn't follow common sense and math, in that case, everyone gets resistance to logic and law and physics manipulation, and everyone is immeasurable speed because they transcend math which is a deciding factor In speed.We don't consider battle power increases as linear either. 2x BP doesn't mean 2x strength and 2x speed. This is something that is only true for kaioken.
I remember the panel, after it goku made his "I am" speech, or before it? He was tanking death beams and dodging them left and right.Yes, yes he was, Frieza was literally shocked and said "HE... HE DODGED IT!?" at this.
Then he fired an assload of beams into Goku and Goku kept dodging and finally he taunted Frieza to hit him once, Frieza did, but only after Goku willingly allowed him to, then taunting Frieza even more that a planet-buster like him can't even destroy a small man like Goku.
What proof? We have never considered battle power to apply linearly to all stats. Stats increase with BP, sure. But not linearly.I'm sorry, what? Where's your proof for this? We already showed this to not be the case.
First of all, "50% Freeza" only refers to a Freeza who is using half of his power/strength. That doesn't mean he was using half of his speed. In fact, as Nullflower and the OP pointed out, Freeza was actually operating at a higher power level which made Goku realize that he wasn't bluffing about using only half of his strength.It literally show to be the case, i don't see how much more proof you need at this point, unless you can prove that Frieza wouldn't have need to get that fast to follow Goku's movements, which its wrong since 50% Frieza was getting speedblitzed during the entire fight.
In strength, yes. We are not talking about strength.100% full power is two times 50% power
Then explain why 50% Frieza got badly outsped by SSJ Goku at every scenario and could only match up with 100% before stamina loss kicked in.What proof? We have never considered battle power to apply linearly to all stats. Stats increase with BP, sure. But not linearly.
First of all, "50% Freeza" only refers to a Freeza who is using half of his power/strength. That doesn't mean he was using half of his speed.
Because he isn't 100% there, he only becomes that after he gives his infamous "5 minute and Namek goes boom"Secondly, the Freeza that gets speed blitzed is definitely slower than SSJ Goku. And he becomes faster by an unquantifiable amount when he starts using his maximum. Just like how SSJ Goku becomes unquantifiably faster than his kaioken x20 self.
Not just strength, speed too. Check where Goku casually side-walks all of Frieza's death beams.In strength, yes. We are not talking about strength.
Simply because the former was slower and the latter was faster. I never said Freeza was using his full speed against kaioken x20 Goku. He was obviously not using his max speed at the time, which is unquantifiably higher as we see later against SSJ Goku.Then explain why 50% Frieza got badly outsped by SSJ Goku at every scenario and could only match up with 100% before stamina loss kicked in.
By 100%, you mean max power Freeza and I agree. Doesn't mean he becomes exactly 2x faster simply because he started using his maximum power.Because he isn't 100% there, he only becomes that after he gives his infamous "5 minute and Namek goes boom"
A speed increase doesn't necessarily mean a 2x speed increase. Once again, the relation is NOT LINEAR. 2x strength increase =/= 2x speed increase. 2x BP increase =/= 2x speed increase. This is something only true for kaioken because we have a direct statement.Not just strength, speed too. Check where Goku casually side-walks all of Frieza's death beams.
And for the 7537th time, the relation is not said to be linear. An increase =/= linear increase. Vegeta never said all stats increase by the same amount. He just said that all stats increase. And that is it. Why is it so hard to get?Speed increase goes hand in hand with power increase. Vegeta's statement to kiwi show this clearly.
There is. It has a direct statement about increasing all stats by the same amount, which nothing else in the series has.There's also nothing special about the kaioken.
The story outright says it because it goes against Vegeta's previous statement and the established mechanics. Because Grade 3 does not increase speed with increase in BP. There is nothing about "linearity" here.and in the only cases where the speed doesn't increase linearly, the story outright says it such as with SSJ Grade 3
Sematics. And while Vegeta don't say that, Goku says this thing when using kaioken, which is just a way to increase battle powerAnd for the 7537th time, the relation is not said to be linear. An increase =/= linear increase. Vegeta never said all stats increase by the same amount. He just said that all stats increase. And that is it. Why is it so hard to get?
No. Goku says that the kaioken is just a technique that allow him to increase his battle power and that's it. There's nothing that separates kaioken from other techniques that allow the fighters to increase their battle power. Besides, again, Vegeta stated that when his battle power rose, so did his speed. Combine that with Goku's statement and you get that the speed increase linearly. In fact the only reason why BP are not used are because Frieza had his featThere is. It has a direct statement about increasing all stats by the same amount, which nothing else in the series has.
But you're forgetting we're not dealing with Grade 3. You are saying this about Grade 1 SSJThe story outright says it because it goes against Vegeta's previous statement and the established mechanics. Because Grade 3 does not increase speed with increase in BP. There is nothing about "linearity" here.
Even without going full speed 50% Frieza while holding back was faster than KKx20 Goku. Going to full power AKA 100% would logically increase his speed to twice what he was using against KKx20 Goku.Simply because the former was slower and the latter was faster. I never said Freeza was using his full speed against kaioken x20 Goku. He was obviously not using his max speed at the time, which is unquantifiably higher as we see later against SSJ Goku.
Which is BS because clearly the 50% Frieza who obviously blitzed KKx20 Goku was not only getting laughed at by SSJ Goku but was outright being taunted to try and hit him, and only after going 100% was he actually able to go on par with Goku.By 100%, you mean max power Freeza and I agree. Doesn't mean he becomes exactly 2x faster simply because he started using his maximum power.
Again, not the case with Frieza. 50% Frieza that was swifter than KKx20 Goku got blitzed by SSJ Goku, so Frieza went 100% to sort of keep up with SSJ Goku but ultimately stamina loss ****** him over.A speed increase doesn't necessarily mean a 2x speed increase. Once again, the relation is NOT LINEAR. 2x strength increase =/= 2x speed increase. 2x BP increase =/= 2x speed increase. This is something only true for kaioken because we have a direct statement.
Bruh, this is going to semantics at this point. Battle power by default includes strength, speed and durability as a whole to be connected directly, to suggest otherwise that they wouldn't get linear boosts would require even more evidence, especially when the Daizenshuu outright states ki power levels to be tied to all fighting aspects and that an increase in power levels increases their fighting capability proportionally due to all of them being tied to the user's ki level and usage prowess, this is especially true for flight.So unless there is a direct statement about SSJ being a 50x boost to strength, speed and durability, it will not be treated the same way as kaioken.
No. For the 75867th time, 2x strength increase =/= 2x speed increase.Going to full power AKA 100% would logically increase his speed to twice what he was using against KKx20 Goku.
50% Freeza is referring to a Freeza who is using half of his strength. Doesn't mean he was using half of his speed. SSJ Goku is still faster than whatever speed Freeza was using. And after going all out, Freeza was able to match SSJ Goku which implies an unquantifiable increase in speed, not necessarily two times.Which is BS because clearly the 50% Frieza who obviously blitzed KKx20 Goku was not getting laughed at by SSJ Goku, and only after going 100% was he actually able to go on par with Goku.
And we don't use battle power linearly. We never have. You know this. If we did, the Piccolo who blew up the moon would be exactly 80x stronger, faster and more durable than a normal human. We also don't take any statement about multipliers from outside the manga as valid. So what the daizenshuu says is irrelevant. Or we'd also be using multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 too. The only reason we considered the use of SSJ multiplier for strength (which was originally accepted to be 40x) is not because it was stated in some guide, but because it is evident in the manga through kaioken and Freeza's statement.Battle power by default includes strength, speed and durability as a whole, to suggest otherwise would require even more evidence.
All of those increases are happening BECAUSE the power level is increasing. Goku literally said it that by amplifying his ki (a.k.a raising his power level), he also increases his power level. Krillin and Gohan confirm that tooIf you think the purpose of kaioken is just to double the battle power then you need to reread the saiyan saga and rewatch the Hit fight because Goku explicitly says that it is a technique that doubles/multiplies power, speed, defensive force and fighting abilities. Not that it's a technique to double someone's battle power.
Then why are you mentioning Grade 3 as if I implied Grade 3 increases speed like Grade 1? You also interperted what I said incorrectly too, as I clearly said that normally increase in power comes hands in fands with an increase in speed by the same amount unless stated otherwise (Grade 3 SSJ for example). Kaioken is a proof for that, and as kaioken is just a technique that amplifies one's battle power, and thus also doubles strength, speed and durability. There's nothing special about it.And I am not saying that (what I said about Grade 3) about Grade 1. Grade 1 functions normally. Grade 3 is a special case. And so is Kaioken. You seem to have comprehended what I am saying incorrectly.
For the millionth time, this is not the case with Frieza.No. For the 75867th time, 2x strength increase =/= 2x speed increase.
No.50% Freeza is referring to a Freeza who is using half of his strength. Doesn't mean he was using half of his speed.
BruhSSJ Goku is still faster than whatever speed Freeza was using. And after going all out, Freeza was able to match SSJ Goku which implies an unquantifiable increase in speed, not necessarily two times.
False equivalence, battle power is not the same thing as power level. Power level is the number-based metric, battle power has no unit to it whatsoever.And we don't use battle power linearly. We never have. You know this. If we did, the Piccolo who blew up the moon would be exactly 80x stronger, faster and more durable than a normal human.
Since when was this even accepted?We also don't take any statement about multipliers from outside the manga as valid.
By that logic we might as well axe the statements that say that speed and power are directly tied to one's ki amount and skill, which is obviously not true.So what the daizenshuu says is irrelevant. Or we'd also be using multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 too.
We didn't just consider it for strength, we considered it for speed as well. You were on that CRT.The only reason we considered the use of SSJ multiplier for strength (which was originally accepted to be 40x) is not because it was stated in some guide, but because it is evident in the manga through kaioken and Freeza's statement.
Only the DB Super Exciting Guide AFAIK has extra multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 alongside the 50x SSJ Multiplier, in Daizenshuu only the 50x SSJ multiplier is present as shown in the scans presented by Nullflower, which the DB Super Exciting Guide just repeats.So what the daizenshuu says is irrelevant. Or we'd also be using multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 too.
Yeah, and Kaioken is literally the only technique where this relation between increase in ki and strength/speed/durability is said to be linear. And that is why we treat kaioken as a linear multiplier for all stats. Kaioken is an EXCEPTION. If you don't want to treat kaioken as an exception, then you are conceding to the fact that Moon level and relativistic Piccolo is only 80x stronger and faster than a normal human.All of those increases are happening BECAUSE the power level is increasing. Goku literally said it that by amplifying his ki (a.k.a raising his power level), he also increases his power level. Krillin and Gohan confirm that too
And I said:I clearly said that normally increase in power comes hands in fands with an increase in speed by the same amount unless stated otherwise
You failed to explain why.For the millionth time, this is not the case with Frieza.
Again, doesn't mean it increases by the same amount as strength and durability. An increase in all stats =/= all stats increase by same amount.Speed is directly tied to one's size of ki and level of skill, much like battle power.
In strength. Because that 50% statement only refers to strength. Read the OP again.100% / 50% is 2x, this is painfully obvious.
I never once said that Freeza was using the his maximum speed while using half of his power.What you're assuming is that he can use the speed from his more powerful form in his lower-rated form, which would require even more evidence.
I am sorry, what? Battle power and power level are the same. Farmer with shotgun has a battle power of 5. Farmer with shotgun has a power level of 5. The guide calls it battle power. The dub calls it power level.False equivalence, battle power is not the same thing as power level. Power level is the number-based metric, battle power has no unit to it whatsoever.
Since always considering we never used multipliers for SSJ1 or SSJ2 or SSJ3 from any guidebooks. We initially used to use 40x for SSJ1 based on the manga alone.Since when was this even accepted?
We don't need to axe it because it is true. But for the 12427380th time, it does not mean that strength and speed both increase by the same amount with increase in ki. Just because someone gets exactly 5x stronger, does not mean they also get 5x faster. It just means they get faster by an unquantifiable amount. It can be more than 5, or less than 5, or equal to 5. But we don't assume anything unless we are told, like in the case of kaioken.By that logic we might as well axe the statements that say that speed and power are directly tied to one's ki amount and skill, which is obviously not true.