The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

[HigashikataJobin]

I think that the tier 1 statistics are a massive exaggeration. It was resistant to a small-scale application of Jaspers' reality-warping, yes, but in terms of raw power it was only portrayed as a bit above Captain Britain.

Well, not necessarily, considering that The Fury wasn't just resisting the effects, it was also attacking Jaspers and overcoming the distortions of reality, so it was in a sence being stronger than a L1-A reality warping.

And about it, consider the fact that The Fury was indeed overpowered in one ocasion by the combined efforts of Captain and his team, but it eventually rebuilt itself and got stronger to the point it could one-shot Captain Britain and attack him before he could react. We readers basically see The Fury evolution trough the comics to the maximum point where it fights its own creator.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

but in terms of raw power it was only portrayed as a bit above Captain Britain.

Also about it, I mentioned here before, but there's a comic where The Fury fights all the Marvel main heroes and villains and is indeed confirmed to be their 616 versions, which would grant him at least herald tier.

However, you will notice that the scans are in Russian. They come from Marvel Heroes from UK, a very obscure print line and currently as far I'm aware only the Russian scans exist in the internet.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

After some self-deliberation, I’ve decided to temporarily delay the 2-C Heralds CRT so I can also incorporate a P&A revision into it, as I’m currently overwhelmed with IRL affairs. I’ll need to entirely reformat the Heralds’ pages, which will take me days, not to mention how I still need to do considerable research.

 

[Excellence616]

After some self-deliberation, I’ve decided to temporarily delay the 2-C Heralds CRT so I can also incorporate a P&A revision into it, as I’m currently overwhelmed with IRL affairs. I’ll need to entirely reformat the Heralds’ pages, which will take me days, not to mention how I still need to do considerable research.

Nice .

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

After some self-deliberation, I’ve decided to temporarily delay the 2-C Heralds CRT so I can also incorporate a P&A revision into it, as I’m currently overwhelmed with IRL affairs. I’ll need to entirely reformat the Heralds’ pages, which will take me days, not to mention how I still need to do considerable research.

Ok

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

For now, Captain America's getting a High 1-B shield: https://vsbattles.com/threads/marvel-comics-captain-americas-high-1-b-shield.159116/

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

If your CRT gets accepted how many universes will the heralds scale to?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

If your CRT gets accepted how many universes will the heralds scale to?

I'm not sure, I haven't read over all the feats yet. 2 universes is definitely okay, as Thor, Hulk, and Silver Surfer all individually have baseline 2-C feats.

 

[Excellence616]

so I can also incorporate a P&A revision

For Heralds?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

For Heralds?

Yes.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Some examples we use to showcase nonsensical "everybody can fight everybody" scaling on our Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics seem outdated. This post is a prelude to a more general overhaul of the page I'm planning.

• Aunt May is not significantly weaker than J. Jonah Jameson, who has punched Spider-Man bloody on his own, who is physically stronger than the Black Panther, who beat the Tiger God, and used it to defeat Logos, who killed The Living Tribunal, who is more powerful than Infinity according to the official handbooks, who stalemated Oblivion. (High 1-A Aunt May)

The last two links in this scaling chain seem redundant, as the True Tribunal, Multi-Infinity, and the True Oblivion are all High 1-A; this seems to be a relic of when the former two were Low 1-A and the last was 1-A. I propose that we cut ", who is more powerful than Infinity according to the official handbooks, who stalemated Oblivion" from the sentence to be concise.

• The Hulk was once beaten by an ordinary python, but also harmed Dormammu within a storyline wherein the latter had beaten Multi-Eternity and stolen his power. (High 1-A snake)

No changes are needed.

• Thor has been knocked out by a shot from a handgun, but also harmed the Chaos King. (High 1-A handgun)

Which key of the Chaos King was Thor fighting?

• The Devil Hulk was regularly severely damaged by conventional weaponry, but a likely weaker incarnation of the character still almost matched Thor with the Odinforce, who killed the Black Winter, who destroyed the Sixth Multiverse, who is superior to The Living Tribunal, who is supposedly still superior to Oblivion according to the handbooks. (High 1-A conventional weaponry)

Everything after "still almost matched Thor with the Odinforce" is invalid for reasons other than "everybody can fight everybody" scaling, so including it is misleading; Thor killed the Black Winter by unleashing his inner life-essence and God Blast, which is far stronger than the Odinforce bur rarely comes out. As such, it should be cut, and the conventional weaponry's scaling chain should end at High 1-B.

• Spider-Man has beaten the Puma, who could allegedly kill the Beyonder when in perfect harmony with the universe, and that still scales to Aunt May according to the above "logic". (High 1-B Aunt May)

No changes are needed.

• Starbrand killed one of The Beyonders, who in turn killed The Living Tribunal. (High 1-A Starbrand)

This example is also invalid for reasons other than "everybody can fight everybody" scaling, as the Beyonders were using manifestations they can freely control the power of, so Starbrand wouldn't scale to their full power either way, so it should just be cut.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

It was Base Thor iirc

No, which key of the Chaos King?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

No, which key of the Chaos King?

Misread. My bad

It was his second key (The Chaos King/Ascended)

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Misread. My bad

It was his second key (The Chaos King/Ascended)

Then the current example doesn't need changes.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, not necessarily, considering that The Fury wasn't just resisting the effects, it was also attacking Jaspers and overcoming the distortions of reality, so it was in a sence being stronger than a L1-A reality warping.

And about it, consider the fact that The Fury was indeed overpowered in one ocasion by the combined efforts of Captain and his team, but it eventually rebuilt itself and got stronger to the point it could one-shot Captain Britain and attack him before he could react. We readers basically see The Fury evolution trough the comics to the maximum point where it fights its own creator.

It was destroyed right afterwards by an alternate universe counterpart to Captain Britain. I still very firmly oppose such extreme statistics for it. It was never intended to have anywhere near such an extreme scale of raw power, just very considerable adaptability and versatility.

You can scale it from being stronger than Captain Britain if you wish.

 

[Antvasima]

Also about it, I mentioned here before, but there's a comic where The Fury fights all the Marvel main heroes and villains and is indeed confirmed to be their 616 versions, which would grant him at least herald tier.

However, you will notice that the scans are in Russian. They come from Marvel Heroes from UK, a very obscure print line and currently as far I'm aware only the Russian scans exist in the internet.

If it was not published by the main Marvel Comics imprint and not officially referenced anywhere else, it seems to be of very uncertain canonicity, and none of the characters it fought have anywhere near tier 1 durabilities or used that scale of powers against it.

 

[Antvasima]

After some self-deliberation, I’ve decided to temporarily delay the 2-C Heralds CRT so I can also incorporate a P&A revision into it, as I’m currently overwhelmed with IRL affairs. I’ll need to entirely reformat the Heralds’ pages, which will take me days, not to mention how I still need to do considerable research.

Which feats would that upgrade from High 3-A to 2-C be based on exactly?

 

[Eseseso]

It's a darn shame that Sise-Neg hasn't been in enough issues to get a VS battles profile, because that guy is broken.

• Stomped Strange and Mordo without trying.
• Strange said Sise-Neg was above anyone he'd ever faced.
• Sise-Neg proves Strange right by easily sleep-haxxing Shuma-Gorath.
• Recreated the 616 Universe (this was confirmed by the Living Tribunal), which would likely be Low 1-A.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Which feats would that upgrade from High 3-A to 2-C be based on exactly?

Off the top of my head (There's a lot more I haven't prepared yet):

1. Thor's feats of wrestling the World Serpent and creating a storm that reached Earth from Asgard should be 2-C, as the nine realms are separate universes.
2. Silver Surfer possesses the power to safely contain an energy that can destroy two universes.
3. Hulk channeled energy that would destroy two universes when split from Banner.

 

[Gasper]

1. Silver Surfer possesses the power to safely contain an energy that can destroy two universes

That's from DC vs Marvel crossover, so that doesn't count.

 

[Antvasima]

Some examples we use to showcase nonsensical "everybody can fight everybody" scaling on our Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics seem outdated. This post is a prelude to a more general overhaul of the page I'm planning.

The last two links in this scaling chain seem redundant, as the True Tribunal, Multi-Infinity, and the True Oblivion are all High 1-A; this seems to be a relic of when the former two were Low 1-A and the last was 1-A. I propose that we cut ", who is more powerful than Infinity according to the official handbooks, who stalemated Oblivion" from the sentence to be concise.

That seems fine, yes.

No changes are needed.

Yes.

Which key of the Chaos King was Thor fighting?

The full-power version. Thor hurt him with a large lightning bolt.

Everything after "still almost matched Thor with the Odinforce" is invalid for reasons other than "everybody can fight everybody" scaling, so including it is misleading; Thor killed the Black Winter by unleashing his inner life-essence and God Blast, which is far stronger than the Odinforce bur rarely comes out. As such, it should be cut, and the conventional weaponry's scaling chain should end at High 1-B.

I suppose that this is probably fine.

No changes are needed.

Yes.

This example is also invalid for reasons other than "everybody can fight everybody" scaling, as the Beyonders were using manifestations they can freely control the power of, so Starbrand wouldn't scale to their full power either way, so it should just be cut.

That is mainly our own rationalisation to make their extremely inconsistent scaling work, as nothing like this was mentioned or implied within Jonathan Hickman's Time Runs Out story, and it doesn't make sense for The Beyonders to willingly allow themselves to get defeated.

 

[Antvasima]

Off the top of my head (There's a lot more I haven't prepared yet):

1. Thor's feats of wrestling the World Serpent and creating a storm that reached Earth from Asgard should be 2-C, as the nine realms are separate universes.

That seems much more like a range feat than a raw power feat. It is too vague to make far-reaching upgrade to an entire verse based on it.

1. Silver Surfer possesses the power to safely contain an energy that can destroy two universes.

The former of those scans is from a likely out-of-continuity old Marvel/DC Comics crossover, and the second seems to be a doctored scan from when the Silver Surfer absorbed enough power from the Earth's Sun to destroy a moon during the Infinity Crusade storyline.

1. Hulk channeled energy that would destroy two universes when split from Banner.

The second of those scans does not work, but the Hulk never displayed anywhere near that scale of power during the Heroes Reborn and Heroes Return storylines, as far as I recall. He simply acted as a nexus between the two worlds due to being split in two at the time.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

That seems much more like a range feat than a raw power feat. It is too vague to make far-reaching upgrade to an entire verse based on it.

The former of those scans is from a likely out-of-continuity old Marvel/DC Comics crossover, and the second seems to be a doctored scan from when the Silver Surfer absorbed enough power from the Earth's Sun to destroy a moon during the Infinity Crusade storyline.

The second of those scans does not work, but the Hulk never displayed anywhere near that scale of power during the Heroes Reborn and Heroes Return storylines, as far as I recall. He simply acted as a nexus between the two worlds due to being split in two at the time.

I suppose I'll have to do a lot more research, then.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, and I also think that we have a much more solid basis for High 3-A, so that seems safer/more reliable to use.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

That seems much more like a range feat than a raw power feat.

Both of these feats are used for Thor's High 3-A rating and were added by Ultima_Reality

 

[Antvasima]

Well, unless Thor affected the entire 4-dimensional spacetime continuums, rather than a part of their contents, it still doesn't seem like a 2-C feat.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

That is mainly our own rationalisation to make their extremely inconsistent scaling work, as nothing like this was mentioned or implied within Jonathan Hickman's Time Runs Out story, and it doesn't make sense for The Beyonders to willingly allow themselves to get defeated.

@Ultima_Reality Thoughts?

 

[HigashikataJobin]

It was destroyed right afterwards by an alternate universe counterpart to Captain Britain. I still very firmly oppose such extreme statistics for it. It was never intended to have anywhere near such an extreme scale of raw power, just very considerable adaptability and versatility.

You can scale it from being stronger than Captain Britain if you wish.

I see your point there, but I also find very strange not to consider at least that The Fury can have L1-A level of resistance. It clearly resisted the effects of a reality warping deforming an entire Earth and them resisted from the erasure of said Earth when it should be deleted together.

And yes, it was destroyed but it was severely weakned, as the comic says.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Ultima_Reality Thoughts?

I disagree, personally. The Beyonders being able to freely decide how powerful their physical shells are is from Captain America and the Mighty Avengers #7, released in April 15, 2015. Thor and Hyperion fighting Beyonders is from New Avengers Vol. 3 #32, released in March 25, 2015. The two comics are extremely close to each other and part of the same general continuity, so I'd say it's absolutely fine to use information in one to justify events happening in the other.

As for the Beyonder allowing themselves to get defeated: Well, you have to remember that, as far as the Beyonders were concerned, Thor, Hyperion, Starband and etc. were insignificant nuisances who really had no chance of impacting their experiment whatsoever, so that whole fight was just a quick diversion to them. Even the tone they take during it is more one of detached examination/fascination than anything.

 

[Antvasima]

I see your point there, but I also find very strange not to consider at least that The Fury can have L1-A level of resistance. It clearly resisted the effects of a reality warping deforming an entire Earth and them resisted from the erasure of said Earth when it should be deleted together.

And yes, it was destroyed but it was severely weakned, as the comic says.

You can probably give it that degree of resistance against reality warping, but it is just a bit more durable than Captain Britain against other, more straightforward, types of attacks.

 

[Antvasima]

I disagree, personally. The Beyonders being able to freely decide how powerful their physical shells are is from Captain America and the Mighty Avengers #7, released in April 15, 2015. Thor and Hyperion fighting Beyonders is from New Avengers Vol. 3 #32, released in March 25, 2015. The two comics are extremely close to each other and part of the same general continuity, so I'd say it's absolutely fine to use information in one to justify events happening in the other.

As for the Beyonder allowing themselves to get defeated: Well, you have to remember that, as far as the Beyonders were concerned, Thor, Hyperion, Starband and etc. were insignificant nuisances who really had no chance of impacting their experiment whatsoever, so that whole fight was just a quick diversion to them. Even the tone they take during it is more one of detached examination/fascination than anything.

Okay. I suppose that makes sense, but I definitely think that Al Ewing was covering Jonathan Hickman's lazy/irresponsible plot holes, as he has done for many other Marvel Comics writers.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Okay. I suppose that makes sense, but I definitely think that Al Ewing was covering Jonathan Hickman's lazy/irresponsible plot holes, as he has done for many other Marvel Comics writers.

I have applied my changes.

Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics

There are several massive problems with using power-scaling for these two prominent franchises that have shared hundreds of different authors over several decades. Said writers naturally tend to have highly differing opinions and interpretations, which is reflected in their stories. Quite often...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[HigashikataJobin]

You can probably give it that degree of resistance against reality warping, but it is just a bit more durable than Captain Britain against other, more straightforward, types of attacks.

It still doesn't makes sense since, again, The Fury resisted the completely erasure of Earth-238 and was the only survivor. And again, The Fury was only defeated by Captain Britain because it was severely weakned after the battle with MJJ. Basically the comic explicitly lets us know this fact so it can makes sense that The Fury is defeated.

 

[Antvasima]

Hyperion also survived the erasure of his universe, but we do not give him power levels of infinite degrees of infinity because of it.

Also, I would like you to post the full context scans of how the Fury survived exactly.

In any case, it is more powerful than most regular superheroes, yes, but the more powerful among them can still cause problems for/damage it, and Jaspers' powers were originally portrayed as being much more about range than focused intensity.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Also, I would like you to post the full context scans of how the Fury survived exactly.

The full context are in the sandbox. Mandragon, who was the Omniversal Majestror, erased Earth-238 and all of its inhabitants, but The Fury survived and latter The Fury evolved to be able to travel to another universes and came to Earth-616

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Hyperion also survived the erasure of his universe, but we do not give him power levels of infinite degrees of infinity because of it.

Yeah, but Hyperion's case is more about a PIS, and in Fury's case not only it survived the destruction of Earth-238 but could survive in it after the Jaspers Warp deformed all in a manner that made life impossible. And still, after it encountered Jaspers after recover its full potential, The Fury fought the 616 Jaspers and resisted again his reality warping. So, by far, we have 3 cases of The Fury resisting things that affect completely or destroy Low 1-A level structures (Earths).

 

[TiltedFN]

I'm kind of confused about the cosmology, so is the multiverse just different variations of earth 616 ad infinitum? Like is that the prime reality that everything branches from? If so, what about the other number universes? Like earth 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.

 

[Gasper]

I'm kind of confused about the cosmology, so is the multiverse just different variations of earth 616 ad infinitum? Like is that the prime reality that everything branches from? If so, what about the other number universes? Like earth 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.

There are infinite numbering universes like 616, but then each of these are then branched into an infinite number of variations ad infinitum.

 

[TiltedFN]

There are infinite numbering universes like 616, but then each of these are then branched into an infinite number of variations ad infinitum.

So what's the meaning of 616 being the prime universe? Is that where most stories and events take place? I've also seen some articles say that other universes are referenced to 616 also.

 

[Gasper]

So what's the meaning of 616 being the prime universe? Is that where most stories and events take place? I've also seen some articles say that other universes are referenced to 616 also.

616 is the universe where all main stories happen, yes. But there are others too.