The Presence wasn't really injured

[Naim_Ishtiak_Ahmed]

The Presence that was temporarily killed by Gabriel was merely another aspect.





And the true Presence is the Void itself.

 

[Antvasima]

That is not the way that the character was presented in the most recent Lucifer comicbook. The title character literally cut him to pieces.

 

[Antvasima]

However, we do already state that the Presence shown within Lucifer is likely just an aspect of Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, which is the true God of DC Comics.

 

[Naim_Ishtiak_Ahmed]

Actually this is what I wanted to say. The Presence represented in DC & Vertigo are slightly different. Vertigo Presence is just an aspect of the Void. But Spectre just called the Void itself as the devine presence

 

[Naim_Ishtiak_Ahmed]

Also seems like Grant Morrison had confirmed this

 

[Naim_Ishtiak_Ahmed]

So possible profile merge?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

.... This would also change Elaine Belloc to High 1-A... Considering well... She is the Presence. I'm neutral on this however .

 

[Sandman31]

There are some inconsistencies , The Presence leftat the end of Mike Careys lucifer run but the Presence also appeared in Phantom Stranger's solo, even though the Presence should have been replaced by Elaine

 

[Sandman31]

@Naim

Can you link/post the original tweet?

 

[Antvasima]

We prefer not to use tweets as evidence. Also, our Presence profile is just for the Vertigo/Lucifer character.

 

[Antvasima]

It is less confusing to keep the Presence and the Overvoid separate, since one has shown limitations within the story itself, whereas the other is only limited by The Writer.

 

[Sandman31]

We prefer not to use tweets as evidence. Also, our Presence profile is just for the Vertigo/Lucifer character.

So, does that mean we treat mainstream DC and Vertigo as seperate? or since our page for The Presence is only for Lucifer/Vertigo Presence, does that mean we can make a profile for the "DC Presence"?

 

[Antvasima]

Nah, the DC God and the Overvoid seem to be the same character. It would be unnecessary.

 

[Sandman31]

We prefer not to use tweets as evidence. Also, our Presence profile is just for the Vertigo/Lucifer character.

The tweet also looks fake

I dont think we can use it

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that Grant Morrison mentioned that the Overvoid is God and that all other manifestations such as the Source are aspects of it in an interview as well, but I do not have the link available.

 

[Sandman31]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2009/02/03/inside-the-mind-of-grant-morrison?page=2

I think you're referring to this

GM:...Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it!

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that it was another interview, but he has likely talked about it more than once.

 

[Naim_Ishtiak_Ahmed]

There are some inconsistencies , The Presence leftat the end of Mike Careys lucifer run but the Presence also appeared in Phantom Stranger's solo, even though the Presence should have been replaced by Elaine

Well because the Vertigo is separate continuity:http://www.comicbookresources.com/?...comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=32062


Also it's repeated several time to be just an aspect

 

[Naim_Ishtiak_Ahmed]

also even though the Endless were introduced in contuity before, Lucifer was introduced in the new52 Demon Knights. However I think this is a different character

 

[Sandman31]

Not all Vertigo titles are seperate, Lucifer is canon to The Sandman and The Sandman is canon to mainstream DC, even referenced multiple times. The Sandman was actually a DC title and was only changed after Vertigo was created

Morpheus's death was referenced by Zauriel in JLA

Daniel appeared in JLA and shrinked Starro

Daniel also appeared to take his mother and father to the Dreaming when the two of them were sent to hell by The Spectre

Death appeared in Action Comics and talked with Lex Luthor

Daniels latest appearance in Dark Nights: Metal also confirmed once again that the Sandman is canon to DC

The Sandman: Universe also is canon to DC as seen at the end of Dark Nights: Metal and there's going to be a new Lucifer series that is probably canon to DC as well

"Like that body you've chosen to dress up in"

That's doesnt mean that's an aspect, its because the Presence is non-corporeal and that body is just a "dress"

I know about that Lucifer, there's more than one Lucifer in DC Comics

Lucifer Morningstar from Sandman also appeared in The Spectre solo series

 

[Naim_Ishtiak_Ahmed]

Point taken.

The other scan clearly says it's an aspect. The true presence is the void itself like spectre states before.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the true God is the Overvoid, and the Presence and the Source seem to be two manifestations/aspects of that. DC cosmology is not as extremely inconsistent as Marvel's, but it is still contradictory, and we have to make an approximation that seeks to fuse together different interpretations.

 

[Naim_Ishtiak_Ahmed]

But the thing with Presence that in the end it's all part of it's plan.

 

[Naim_Ishtiak_Ahmed]

It makes think if what he does are sort of plot device. When GEB threatened to destroy heaven the Presence just shook hands with it & they became the yin & yang. Maybe heaven was never in a threat. Rather it was all part of it's plot

 

[Sandman31]

But the thing with Presence that in the end it's all part of it's plan.

But it was also shown that Lucifer's abdication wasnt part of his plan so not everything goes according to the script

 

[Naim_Ishtiak_Ahmed]

But even in that it was stated to his success

 

[Antvasima]

There were apparently beings older than the Presence in the original Lucifer series. He did not remotely create everything.

In addition he also stated that he was created by external forces in the original series.

And in the new series he was severely damaged first by Gabriel Hornblower and then by the title character.

We cannot ignore all of these established limitations.

As such, we have to consider the Overvoid as the supreme being of DC Comics, and every other manifestation of God as an aspect of the entity.

 

[Naim_Ishtiak_Ahmed]

The Presence is part of the Overvoid which I've been saying all along.

That was an aspect which was harmed by Gabriel & Lucifer like I've shown earlier. And even so Lucifer stated it the Presence had been the architect of the events.

"Shaped by forces external" He is shaped by the beliefs of humans at what they want him to be. To the gods he is the Source, to Spectre he is the Voice & to the monitors he is the Overvoid. A similar thing happened to Michael when he entered India, he became Shiva.

For the places he can not go, I think this was a 4th wall reference to other franchises.

And GEB was likely plot device. At the end they even became the yin & yang when they shook hands.

 

[Antvasima]

And I keep saying that as he has been presented in Vertigo, he did not create everything, as the Jin En Mok are supposedly older, he was created by the beliefs of mankind according to Mike Carey, and he can be damaged or possibly even killed by archangels, and he has had rivals to his power in Elaine Belloc and the Great Evil Beast.

Basically, DC Comics is very inconsistent regarding these issues, but our profile is about the character as presented within Vertigo, who, I agree, is just a manifestation of the Overvoid, but we still have to separate a limited manifestation from the almost unlimited whole in order to avoid confusion. Sorry.

That said, I would appreciate input from Matthew Schroeder regarding this issue.

 

[Naim_Ishtiak_Ahmed]

But aparently it was all part of his plan

 

[Naim_Ishtiak_Ahmed]

& when GEB threatened heaven the Presence just shook hands with it & became the yin & yang. GEB is also an aspect of the Overvoid. He apparently used that as a plot device too

 

[Antvasima]

Can you link to the "Read Comic Online" Lucifer issue where that quote appeared, so I get some context?

 

[Sandman31]

Thats when The Presence reappeared again as that black thing, also that already in the Presence's profile. Not everything was part of the Presence's plan, it was revealed that The Presence tried to convince Lucifer to return to Hell because it was not part of the plan

also, here's the issue

http://***************.to/Comic/Lucifer-2016/Issue-10?id=89420

 

[Antvasima]

@Sandman

Okay. Thank you for the information.

So what, if anything, do you think that we need to modify?

 

[Sandman31]

If our Presence page is only for the Vertigo the Presence, then we should put a note.

Note: This is the profile of The Presence as seen in the Vertigo continuity

But, if The Presence page is only for the Vertigo Presence, then why does it have a quote from the Phantom Stranger solo run?

 

[Antvasima]

We should probably remove the Phantom Stranger reference then, to avoid confusion, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Would you be willing to update the page?

 

[Naim_Ishtiak_Ahmed]

Question: you have Azathoth at tier 0 but not the Void, why?

For instance even though the Writers put the ink the Overvoid is the one that manipulates it.

Also it's stated that reality-fiction interaction isn't accepted here, which is logical since I don't think the comic Writers can create characters in the real world like Ultraa or Superboy Prime. Even so they put "our universe" in the orrery of worlds, way below the Overvoid/the Source. So it kinda creates a loop.

And the monitors, who are representation of the writers are below the Overvoid.

 

[Antvasima]

We made an exception in this case due to the reasons explained in The Writer page.

A tier 0 cannot have clear limitations within its own setting. If it wasn't for the artists drawing the multiverse upon the Overvoid against its will, we would have made it a tier 0 instead.

 

[Antvasima]

The Monitors represent the editors of the DC Multiverse, with Grant Morrison apparently perceiving Dan Didio as the vampiric destructive parasite Mandrakk, but he has nevertheless established a canon of the real writers manipulating the Overvoid against its will.