The PoC Chronicles: Tier 1 The Reckoning

[Sevil Natas]

here we go with this again. DMC demon world upgrade to 1-C this time with better-refined arguments and explanations for the cosmology

the explanation for why the demon world is tier 1 is in this blog

with that the characters that directly get upgraded because of this are :

• Nightmare and those who scale to him would get 1-C due to him being able to destroy the demon world
• The Demon World's energy would be a 1-C structure because it spans the entire demon world. this would heavily affect its abilities as now they would have 1-C potenc

and that's it. let's hope this thread goes more smoothly this time around :v

 

[KLOL506]

I am gonna be neutral on this one and let the gang handle the rest.

 

[Shmooply]

Here's hoping it doesn't get moved to staff discussion.

 

[KLOL506]

Oh yeah, one last request. PLEASE, for the love of God, do not derail this thread with other topics regarding DMC's current Tier 2 ratings and whatnot, stick strictly to what's in the OP. If you have issues with how DMC's current tiers are handled, look no further to the Explanation Blogs on the verse page.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Here's hoping it doesn't get moved to staff discussion.

Don't set your hopes too high on that

I'll be reading the blog for the 1000th time again to take a side, count me neutral for now

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

If nothing else, you guys are dedicated and persistent. I admire it, reading through blog now.

 

[KLOL506]

If nothing else, you guys are dedicated and persistent. I admire it, reading through blog now.

Wait till you see what we've got planned for God of War

Spoilers: It's not really that much.

 

[Mister6ame6]

Well, neutral atm, let's see how this will go this time.

 

[Jibz]

PLEASE, for the love of God, do not derail this thread with other topics regarding DMC's current Tier 2 ratings and whatnot, stick strictly to what's in the OP.

Wait till you see what we've got planned for God of War

Spoilers: It's not really that much.

 

[KLOL506]

Seems like I forgot to mention that teasers don't fall under that

 

[Jibz]

Crossing out the message doesnt make the derail less of a derail

i dont wanna be that guy, but lets keep it on schedule so this doesnt end up like the pokemon L1-C upgrade

 

[Ibrahem]

I've read the blog multiple times before and I Think souls originating from returning to the demon world is very straightforward. And is actually supported throughout the series more times than i can remember.

One more thing that might further support the DW being this large. A universe that mundus casually farted into existence inside the DW is stated to be beyond human comprehension. And this thing is nothing compared to the full size of the demon world.

Anyways, i agree.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Okay, I'll be the first to shoot

I read the blog and its logic is sound, from what I got, Demons are literall souls, check, they are born in the Demon World/Chaos, check, which shows that the higher dimension mentioned in the Souls Statement is the Demon World/Chaos itself, check. I get the logic

My first question is, DW/Chaos spawning 9D objects is enough for it being 9D itself ? It is called a higher dimension, okay, but wouldn't that make it Low 1-C at first ? Or creating something with more Ds than that makes the whole dimension equal in Ds ?

And my only problem is the second half, the Human World and the Mirror Dimension may be Low 2-C and small compared to the Demon World, but that on its own is no real evidence of DW being portrayed as higher dimension in relation to them (As if being a universe inside something bigger means this something is Tier 1), I completely disagree with that. Now now, that doesn't mean I disagree with the upgrade itself, just with the Mirror World's example which is about DW's behavior, not its dimensionality

 

[Sevil Natas]

My first question is, DW/Chaos spawning 9D objects is enough for it being 9D itself ? It is called a higher dimension, okay, but wouldn't that make it Low 1-C at first ? Or creating something with more Ds than that makes the whole dimension equal in Ds ?

the statement does not make any sense if you make it that way. like the soul origin makes 9th-dimensional objects it's stated to be the entire origin of said object and on top of that it's stated to be higher dimensional. just like how 3D beings get created in 3D places cus they have to be. a 2D realm does not have the space within it to create or be the origin of a 3D being (now this can happen in fiction. it's just very unlikely and it needs proof we cant just assume it as default) the primordial chaos is the origin of 9D things this should, especially when it's stated to be higher dimensional, make it also 9th Dimensional

And my only problem is the second half, the Human World and the Mirror Dimension may be Low 2-C and small compared to the Demon World, but that on its own is no real evidence of DW being portrayed as higher dimension in relation to them (As if being a universe inside something bigger means this something is Tier 1), I completely disagree with that. Now now, that doesn't mean I disagree with the upgrade itself, just with the Mirror World's example which is about DW's behavior, not its dimensionality

really it does not matter how they are portrayed. if the MW is but a small subset of the DW and the demon world is higher-dimensional then the Demon world would qualify for that higher-dimensional tier it's enough according to the FAQ at least. actually, I went way overboard with proving that the realm scales to 1-C. just being a higher dimensional realm and being infinite is enough for that. according to what I was told in this thread and also that is eluded to in the FAQ too noting:

However, vaguer cases where a universe is merely stated to be higher-dimensional while existing in a scaling vacuum with no previously established relationship of superiority towards lower-dimensional ones (or no evidence to infer such a relationship from) should be analysed more carefully. In such cases where information as to their exact nature and scale is scarce, it is preferable that the higher dimensions in question be fully-sized in order to qualify

 

[Lightning_XXI]

the statement does not make any sense if you make it that way. like the soul origin makes 9th-dimensional objects it's stated to be the entire origin of said object and on top of that it's stated to be higher dimensional. just like how 3D beings get created in 3D places cus they have to be. a 2D realm does not have the space within it to create or be the origin of a 3D being (now this can happen in fiction. it's just very unlikely and it needs proof we cant just assume it as default) the primordial chaos is the origin of 9D things this should, especially when it's stated to be higher dimensional, make it also 9th Dimensional

I wouldn't assume the burden of proof being on "the other side" on that matter, as you said yourself, if it can happen in fiction, we should stick with what we can prove, which is Low 1-C as far as my understanding goes. However, maybe the burden with this specific case is not on you, that's something we should look forward to ask to staff (Probably Ultima)

really it does not matter how they are portrayed. if the MW is but a small subset of the DW and the demon world is higher-dimensional then the Demon world would qualify for that higher-dimensional tier it's enough according to the FAQ at least. actually, I went way overboard with proving that the realm scales to 1-C. just being a higher dimensional realm and being infinite is enough for that. according to what I was told in this thread and also that is eluded to in the FAQ too noting:

The problem is why MW is a Subset, simply because it is smaller and inside the DW ? 2-C/2-B/2-A structures can have Low 2-C Universes inside of it without being Tier 1, that was my point

 

[Sevil Natas]

I wouldn't assume the burden of proof being on "the other side" on that matter, as you said yourself, if it can happen in fiction, we should stick with what we can prove, which is Low 1-C as far as my understanding goes. However, maybe the burden with this specific case is not on you, that's something we should look forward to ask to staff (Probably Ultima)

i mean i'm not asking you to prove a negative here. it's just that it's illogical to assume that a higher-dimensional thing came from a lower-dimensional realm. it just does not add up for the reasons above. yes fiction is weird and can make up stupid stuff like that but it's not something to default to. especially in this case. where the statement itself says the origin is a higher dimension. why would they say it's higher dimensional if the soul (the thing that the statement is talking about) is actually above it in terms of dimensionality? it just does not make any sense for it to be that way.

The problem is why MW is a Subset, simply because it is smaller and inside the DW ? 2-C/2-B/2-A structures can have Low 2-C Universes inside of it without being Tier 1, that was my point

if those 2-C/2-B/2-A structures have a statement that makes them 5D size or higher then yeah they'd be tier 1. lt's just that there needs to be statements that make them HD first.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I think you misunderstand the FAQ. It's saying that an explanation is required to qualify for a higher dimensional tier, yes. However it does not state what tier. That latter part is entirely context dependant, and even the most stretched out interpretation of the context would only get you Low 1-C.

To illustrate, your argument is that the human world is Low 2-C and is infinitesimally smaller than the demon world. Not only that, bur the demon world houses many such worlds like it, or at least more than one. Ok.

That would still at the very best be one degree of transcendence which would only net you Low 1-C.

Again, the above is not proof that 9D is legitimate, it only proves that the demon world is >>>>>> human world and others like it. In order to prove 9D is real you need a quote or statement that insinuates that the demon realm is 9D and that characters know it is and treat it as such. Examples would be Doctor Strange being possessed by a higher dimensional being and feeling more dimensions than 5, or if you want a tier closer to this revision, Hyperdimension Neptunia's 1-C.

In essence, you have to have the 9D realm actually defined and not derive a conclusion based on other elements.

 

[Sevil Natas]

I think you misunderstand the FAQ. It's saying that an explanation is required to qualify for a higher dimensional tier, yes. However it does not state what tier. That latter part is entirely context dependant, and even the most stretched out interpretation of the context would only get you Low 1-C.

To illustrate, your argument is that the human world is Low 2-C and is infinitesimally smaller than the demon world. Not only that, bur the demon world houses many such worlds like it, or at least more than one. Ok.

That would still at the very best be one degree of transcendence which would only net you Low 1-C.

Again, the above is not proof that 9D is legitimate, it only proves that the demon world is >>>>>> human world and others like it. In order to prove 9D is real you need a quote or statement that insinuates that the demon realm is 9D and that characters know it is and treat it as such. Examples would be Doctor Strange being possessed by a higher dimensional being and feeling more dimensions than 5, or if you want a tier closer to this revision, Hyperdimension Neptunia's 1-C.

In essence, you have to have the 9D realm actually defined and not derive a conclusion based on other elements.

what do you it's not legitimate? the demon world contains the place where souls came from. a soul being a 9th Dimensional entity and that place was referred to as being a higher dimension. in the same sentence where the soul was also stated to be 9D. that alone makes the Demon world a 9D realm because it is logically incoherent for it to be not For the reasons above. I don't need anything else to prove the demon world is a 9D structure

 

[Lugh_Tuathe_Dé]

Following

 

[Random-Helper323]

Neutral at the moment. I can see both sides of the argument. If 9D souls and information get produced by a dimension stated to be higher dimensional in the same sentence, that does support it, and if they're stated to be formed or created from it then they have to be formed from 9D elements in that dimension, which definitely would point to that dimension at least having 9D elements. But I can also see the issue with the higher dimension itself not being stated to be 9D.

Does containing at least two, likely significantly more Low-2C dimensions indicate the demon world is higher, or is that just 2-C on its own?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Right, I'll do this properly.

The Soul It continues to hide mysteries that humans and demons don't understand, mysteries but every human has such. A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path. It not only contains the mind and memory but also contains all the information of the body and its ancestors since ancient times

I want to point out right off the bat that this assumes that humans also have 9D souls, since it literally states "every human has such" in reference to the soul. Also, there is no mention of Chaos in this whatsoever, which a bulk of your later arguments hinge on.

I'm sure most of the people reading this are familiar with this statement. as it gave us important information about souls in DMC. that they're 9th Dimensional objects. however, the statement does mention a higher dimensional realm that the souls originate from. said realm exists in the primordial chaos since that's where demons originated (which are souls fundamentally)

This is headcanon; at least up to this point. Structuring your argument like this is borderline disingenuous since you have yet to actually prove that the realm where souls originate from and return to is in fact Chaos.

Demons Creatures that have existed since before the creation of the human world, spawned by the primordial chaos that preceded reality and formed by the demon world. All but the weakest demons do not care what they lose, their bodies, their names, their souls or everything, as long as they persist they can regenerate and continue fighting without rest.

Ok, cool. Nice High-Godly Regeneration feat. Also if their 9D soul is erased and they can come back isn't that like a better feat?

PoCs primordial Chaos sounds like it's something connected to the original world which is the only thing that predates the demon world as it is known now and is stated to be a container/crucible of chaos and which later became the known as the demon world.here are the raw scans for that translated by redXIII[2]. and for good measure here are the official translations aswell. given that's the only reference we have to this chaos in the DMC verse outside of PoC. we could infer the original Chaos is contained in the world before the split.before the human world. there's also a lot of supporting evidence for this actually. one is directly from PoC

This is speculation at best. The scan you're using to justify that Chaos is the darkness before the light split the two worlds gives no context that this "chaos" is the 9D realm where souls originate from and return to. Ok yeah, you could spin it in a way that insinuates the souls of demons go to the demon realm and thus, it is the "chaos". But remember, this is not a canonical statement. This is something you assumed because it made sense, not anything that was directly told to us through the medium. Nowhere in the 9D scan shows that souls return to Chaos.

Chaos Boundary Stone The legendary material needed to forge Dante's weapons Until the first light split the world in half, such stones were nowhere to be found. They are full of the power of the original chaos, but now they are becoming increasingly rare.

This has nothing to do with the argument. Remember, you're arguing that souls are 9D and that the Chaos is also 9D. This just says that Dante's sword is made out of a material that comes from before the split. It adds nothing.

an interesting fact that also suggests this is the word used to refer to the primordial chaos itself '原始混沌 ' Yuánshǐ hùndùn which refers to the primordial chaos in chinese myth. the world before heaven and earth were separated.

Again, has nothing to do with anything. You are confounding language into meaning like a literature teacher finding meaning in the statement "the door is blue".

further proving that the old world and by extension the demon world contains the place that souls originate from is that fact that both humans souls and demons (who are spirits) go to the demon world after death. this consistent with the "it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path". the evidence for that is the following.

No. No this does not mean what you think it means. Just because souls will eventually return to the 9D realm, it DOES NOT MEAN the demon world is that 9D realm. Souls that die go to the demon world, sure. But there is absolutely no evidence (that you have presented) that insinuates the demon world is the final resting place of souls. Considering all the above, the 9D realm and the Chaos/demon world have no correlation whatsoever. Why would I start to believe now that the demon world is the 9D realm just because souls go there after death? There is more evidence that assumes otherwise. You need to prove that the demon world created these souls and is the final destination that all souls return to in order for me to believe this is the 9D realm.

And don't bring up the "demons were spawned by the primordial chaos" thing. That scan does not say "souls were spawned by the primordial chaos". And while you're at it, prove that human souls originate from the demon world since, as I've stated above, human souls are also 9D according to your scan.

the world is born of darkness Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals.

the world is basically born of darkness (The Demon world) then the human world came to be, a small ray of light in this Endless darkness that is the demon world, it very important to note that the human world is a Low 2-C structure, and it's a small subset of the demon world, in fact, there's this thing in DMC called the mirror world that furthermore confirms this :

The mirror that reflects this world is the entrance to the demon world! This demon's cave, where he cannot even breathe, distorts Dante's consciousness with its powerful demonic sea air and robs him of his vision. "The Stone of the Bridge is in Dante's hand, and the demons surround him in a frenzy.

it's basically a copied version of the human world, and yet it's only a small fraction of the demon realm serving only as an entrance to it in mallet island, it's also a Low 2-C structure, this mirror realm represents evil in humanity hearts, it's also a full-on space-time continuum as implied here.

Dude. What? Your scan for the mirror world does not insinuate that it is the same size as the human world. Like I'm going to trust you for a second and assume the human world is actually a Low 2-C construct. However, the scan just says it mirrors the human world. Like, that's what mirrors do? You're conflating a simple sentence to mean the Low 2-C construct human world, but it just means it's doing what a mirror does and mirroring the world we see. The context here is important.

"Evil is a reflection of man and thus evil lurks inside the mirror" Cool. This means absolutely nothing. Like if you think about it properly, what does this even mean literally? Evil is not a reflection of man, not in the literal sense. Unless you mean all men are true evil, in which case no one in DMC is a good person. Evil lurks inside the mirror. No shit, there are demons inside the mirror. This is textbook flowery language.

"Dante climbs to the third floor of the old castle and discovers another window in time and space. Dante went further into the depths." You're really using this as evidence of Low 2-C? I know far better evidence that has been rejected for Low 2-C before. This is nothing. Ask literally anyone and they'll tell you. A "window in time and space" is just a portal or entrance. It does not insinuate a full space-time continuum.

my point is that the demon world held multiple Low 2-C structures as just small aspects of itself. and since the demon world is a 9th Dimensional realm that holds smaller infinitesimal tier 2 realms compared to it as subsets of itself we can conclude that it does meet the requirements for tier 1 according to the FAQ Page

You already have a hard time convincing me it even contains one Low 2-C structure, much less multiple. Also you have provided no scan that the human realm is just a small aspect of the demon realm in this CRT but you're lucky I still remember that from the last one. For clarity sake, I suggest you include that too in this one for the people who were not present in the last CRT.

with that, i believe that the Demon world structure does qualify for tier 1, specifically for being an Infinite 1-C Realm And for housing Smaller Universal sized realms inside it

Buddy, just because a truck and a bucket can both hold the same amount of water, it does not mean the bucket is truck sized. Just because a universe is small to you, it does not mean you suddenly qualify for a tier that is leagues beyond your showings. If it were that easy, any statement of being boundlessly beyond a universe is 1-A. (Which it's not)

To summarize my points:

You have not proven the realm where souls originate from is the primordial chaos/demon world.

The mirror world is not a Low 2-C construct.

Just because the demon world is far larger than the human world it does not mean it is more dimensionally complex. Speaking of...

You still have not proven that 9D is legitimate. Like it is a statement, yeah. But a statement with no mathematical backing falls victim to this part of the FAQ:

"However, vaguer cases where a universe is merely stated to be higher-dimensional while existing in a scaling vacuum with no previously established relationship of superiority towards lower-dimensional ones (or no evidence to infer such a relationship from) should be analysed more carefully. In such cases where information as to their exact nature and scale is scarce, it is preferable that the higher dimensions in question be fully-sized in order to qualify."

This means you have to prove your dimensions are real (spatio-temporal) and complex.

As for the former part of the FAQ:

"One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc."

The demon world seeing the human world as infinitesimal is at best Low 1-C. But even that has its host of standards that must be adhered to.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

agreed

The demon world seeing the human world as infinitesimal is at best Low 1-C. But even that has its host of standards that must be adhered to.

Its evidence that higher dimensions are at least transcendent to 4D places

 

[Sir_Ovens]

agreed


Its evidence that higher dimensions are at least transcendent to 4D places

Yes, but not 9D. Being "at least 4D" and being "9D" are two different things.

 

[Delta333]

Disagree, it being called as 9-D means nothing if we take the feat at face value, as housing multiple low 2-C structures is something that even Low 1-C can do.

If you want the structure being legitimate 1-C then you need to prove each lower dimension being embedded within its corresponding higher one instead of only 4-D structure being embedded.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I have a few thoughts about this. First of all, were the demons already present in the chaos? Second, this is speculation, but I wonder if the idea is that if souls are 9D and return to a higher dimension, that dimension is something beyond the demon world. It would make sense to drop those hints for the future of the franchise, considering Dante, Vergil and Nero are strong enough to laugh at everything the demon world calls strong. Perhaps an enemy from that higher dimension is the future of the DMC story.

 

[Lugh_Tuathe_Dé]

Perhaps an enemy from that higher dimension is the future of the DMC story.

And after few moments in the game they laugh at it again.

 

[Sevil Natas]

I want to point out right off the bat that this assumes that humans also have 9D souls, since it literally states "every human has such" in reference to the soul. Also, there is no mention of Chaos in this whatsoever, which a bulk of your later arguments hinge on.

there's no mention of it but we can ascertain it's the primordial chaos simply due it being the place where demons were created. demons that are souls

This is headcanon; at least up to this point. Structuring your argument like this is borderline disingenuous since you have yet to actually prove that the realm where souls originate from and return to is in fact Chaos.

it isn't. demons being souls has been accepted for years now. i don't have to prove something that is already been there for ages. this just proves you didnt read any of the verse pages or our past CRTs. that is the reason demons have incorporeality and possesion.

This is speculation at best. The scan you're using to justify that Chaos is the darkness before the light split the two worlds gives no context that this "chaos" is the 9D realm where souls originate from and return to. Ok yeah, you could spin it in a way that insinuates the souls of demons go to the demon realm and thus, it is the "chaos". But remember, this is not a canonical statement. This is something you assumed because it made sense, not anything that was directly told to us through the medium. Nowhere in the 9D scan shows that souls return to Chaos.

it really isnt. there's no mention of any other chaos besides this one and it's obvious that PoC is talking about the contained chaos in the primal world. there's literally no other way to look at it. and again it being the demons origin would automatically make it the souls origin. because demons are just that souls. this is supported by the DMC afterlife where SOULS go to the demon world after death and they. smth you conveniently chose to disregard by screaming insufficient evidence but we'll get to that part later

This has nothing to do with the argument. Remember, you're arguing that souls are 9D and that the Chaos is also 9D. This just says that Dante's sword is made out of a material that comes from before the split. It adds nothing.

it does. it connects the primordial chaos with the splitting of the world. further cementing that this chaos is not an outside realm but infact is in the demon world

Again, has nothing to do with anything. You are confounding language into meaning like a literature teacher finding meaning in the statement "the door is blue".

you misunderstood this part. it's not meant to be evidence it's smth i thought of as an interesting fact and might help convince some ppl

No. No this does not mean what you think it means. Just because souls will eventually return to the 9D realm, it DOES NOT MEAN the demon world is that 9D realm. Souls that die go to the demon world, sure. But there is absolutely no evidence (that you have presented) that insinuates the demon world is the final resting place of souls. Considering all the above, the 9D realm and the Chaos/demon world have no correlation whatsoever. Why would I start to believe now that the demon world is the 9D realm just because souls go there after death? There is more evidence that assumes otherwise. You need to prove that the demon world created these souls and is the final destination that all souls return to in order for me to believe this is the 9D realm.

And don't bring up the "demons were spawned by the primordial chaos" thing. That scan does not say "souls were spawned by the primordial chaos". And while you're at it, prove that human souls originate from the demon world since, as I've stated above, human souls are also 9D according to your scan.

okay now this just is not a good response for this point. you're literally asking me to prove a negative by saying 'But there is absolutely no evidence (that you have presented) that insinuates the demon world is the final resting place of souls' it's literally 'hey prove that souls don't go somewhere else after dying and going to the demon world' and that is obviously a fallacy. i dont have to prove that the souls dont go anywhere after the demon world. i just proved they go to the demon world and there isn't anything implying they leave after words. the burden of proof lies on you there

and again demons are basically souls. as that is flat out stated in BTN and is implied by arkham AND it's been accepted for like years now.

Dude. What? Your scan for the mirror world does not insinuate that it is the same size as the human world. Like I'm going to trust you for a second and assume the human world is actually a Low 2-C construct. However, the scan just says it mirrors the human world. Like, that's what mirrors do? You're conflating a simple sentence to mean the Low 2-C construct human world, but it just means it's doing what a mirror does and mirroring the world we see. The context here is important.

"Evil is a reflection of man and thus evil lurks inside the mirror" Cool. This means absolutely nothing. Like if you think about it properly, what does this even mean literally? Evil is not a reflection of man, not in the literal sense. Unless you mean all men are true evil, in which case no one in DMC is a good person. Evil lurks inside the mirror. No shit, there are demons inside the mirror. This is textbook flowery language.

"Dante climbs to the third floor of the old castle and discovers another window in time and space. Dante went further into the depths." You're really using this as evidence of Low 2-C? I know far better evidence that has been rejected for Low 2-C before. This is nothing. Ask literally anyone and they'll tell you. A "window in time and space" is just a portal or entrance. It does not insinuate a full space-time continuum.

it is a reflection of the entire human world why would it not be the size? it's a realm that you could walk on it's not a literal mirror.

also good job going after the stuff that is meant to explain what this mirror is and were not meant to be evidence for it to be tier 2. thank you

You already have a hard time convincing me it even contains one Low 2-C structure, much less multiple. Also you have provided no scan that the human realm is just a small aspect of the demon realm in this CRT but you're lucky I still remember that from the last one. For clarity sake, I suggest you include that too in this one for the people who were not present in the last CRT.

I literally did :

the Devil may cry Cosmology:

the world is born of darkness Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals.[2]

Buddy, just because a truck and a bucket can both hold the same amount of water, it does not mean the bucket is truck sized. Just because a universe is small to you, it does not mean you suddenly qualify for a tier that is leagues beyond your showings. If it were that easy, any statement of being boundlessly beyond a universe is 1-A. (Which it's not)

aha but you failed to consider if this realm that is beyond a universe is higher-dimensional. put that in the equation. and that realm would be tier 1

Just because the demon world is far larger than the human world it does not mean it is more dimensionally complex. Speaking of...

You still have not proven that 9D is legitimate. Like it is a statement, yeah. But a statement with no mathematical backing falls victim to this part of the FAQ:

"However, vaguer cases where a universe is merely stated to be higher-dimensional while existing in a scaling vacuum with no previously established relationship of superiority towards lower-dimensional ones (or no evidence to infer such a relationship from) should be analysed more carefully. In such cases where information as to their exact nature and scale is scarce, it is preferable that the higher dimensions in question be fully-sized in order to qualify."

This means you have to prove your dimensions are real (spatio-temporal) and complex.

oh boy here we go with this again. i dont have to prove anything regarding the 9 Dimensions' nature. they're real. the fact they are stated to be 9 Dimensional means they are just 9 dimensional. they just dont have the mass or energy to scale in AP thats it. you just have to prove in the context of the demon world that it is a fully sized dimension in order for it to qualify meaning if it is infinite or universe sized. i dont have to prove anything in regards to the nature of the higher dimensions themselves. why do you still have this misunderstanding? i explained it to you specifically before. you even asked ultima about it.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Disagree, it being called as 9-D means nothing if we take the feat at face value, as housing multiple low 2-C structures is something that even Low 1-C can do.

If you want the structure being legitimate 1-C then you need to prove each lower dimension being embedded within its corresponding higher one instead of only 4-D structure being embedded.

no you dont. the realm just needs to be higher dimensional and has universal realms of lower dimensions inside it. where do you guys come up with these standards?

 

[CosmicWreck]

no you dont. the realm just needs to be higher dimensional and has universal realms of lower dimensions inside it. where do you guys come up with these standards?

Er, no. The higher dimensional realm just has to be of a significant size. It doesn't have to have universal realms within it. Considering the demon world has been described as infinite it is also not needed.

Not to mention, a window in space-time has nothing to do with the size of the continuum.

 

[Random-Helper323]

As much as I think the future of DMC probably needs higher beings from a dimension above the demon world so that the Sparda kids can have a worthwhile enemy again, that higher dimension hasn't been shown to exist, so at the moment we're just speculating about the 9D dimension the demons return to being somewhere outside the demon world.

I'd suggest waiting if it was an ongoing manga or the like, but knowing Capcom we'll be waiting years, perhaps ten of them, and they might just start making remakes of the first three games instead or reattempting the reboot again (because if the first crap you dropped on everyone's plates didn't please them, drop an even bigger crap; surely the first one being hated was a fluke or just the fanbase's fault). And that's if Nero doesn't somehow create that higher dimension by farting when he has another emotional moment. He already pulled three new arms, two wings and a huge power boost out of his butt when he got emotional, why not a 9-dimensional structure, because who cares about earning what you get or making actual sense when you have a new protagonist to prop up?

 

[Tago238]

If we have a statement of something being higher dimensional and then we have a completely unrelated statement of said thing that happens to be higher dimensional being transcendent over another thing that happens to be lower dimensional that doesn’t show that the transcendence correlates to dimensions in verse; that would only be the case if a statement or collection of statements could be reasonably interpreted to be saying that a higher dimensional thing was necessarily transcendent over a lower dimensional thing. Which is fairly easy to do, but these statements are describing what appear to be entirely unrelated properties of these two structures. Therefore DMC does not have adequate evidence to justify 1-C, you could probably justify 6-D with the souls statement alone tho maybe.

 

[Sevil Natas]

If we have a statement of something being higher dimensional and then we have a completely unrelated statement of said thing that “happens” to be higher dimensional being transcendent over another thing that “happens” to be lower dimensional that doesn’t show that the transcendence correlates to dimensions in verse; that would only be the case if a statement or collection of statements could be reasonably interpreted to be saying that a higher dimensional thing was “necessarily” transcendent over a lower dimensional thing. Which is fairly easy to do, but these statements are describing what appear to be entirely unrelated properties of these two structures. Therefore DMC does not have adequate evidence to justify 1-C, you could probably justify 6-D with the souls statement alone tho maybe.

okay but where did you get any of this info from? because when i first showed this argument to ultima he agreed and didnt site any retort like this.

 

[Tago238]

It isn’t even a “this is what the standard setters say” argument though what

The argument is based on the two propositions “multiple different types of transcendence exist on the wiki that aren’t just dimensional superiority” and “dimensional superiority doesn’t always correlate to higher tiers” alongside axioms present in basic language ig. All of which I’m sure you already know so there’s nothing I need to defend.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

So just to gather a few info

Sevil still is on board for 1-C

And Ovens agrees only with Low 1-C ?

If we have a statement of something being higher dimensional and then we have a completely unrelated statement of said thing that happens to be higher dimensional being transcendent over another thing that happens to be lower dimensional that doesn’t show that the transcendence correlates to dimensions in verse; that would only be the case if a statement or collection of statements could be reasonably interpreted to be saying that a higher dimensional thing was necessarily transcendent over a lower dimensional thing. Which is fairly easy to do, but these statements are describing what appear to be entirely unrelated properties of these two structures. Therefore DMC does not have adequate evidence to justify 1-C, you could probably justify 6-D with the souls statement alone tho maybe.

From what I got, a realm being capable of housing and creating 9D structures while being called a Higher Dimension in the exact same quote should be enough since the Dimension must be on that level to allow souls to exist and to take form. I see there isn't a consensus in this matter

 

[Sevil Natas]

It isn’t even a “this is what the standard setters say” argument though what

The argument is based on the two propositions “multiple different types of transcendence exist on the wiki that aren’t just dimensional superiority” and “dimensional superiority doesn’t always correlate to higher tiers” alongside axioms present in basic language ig. All of which I’m sure you already know so there’s nothing I need to defend.

then you gave no reason for point. why on earth would a statement that makes the realm qualify for tier 1 if it happens to be higher dimensional be disregarded because it didnt come up in the same statement as the 9D one? or because it didnt mention the realm as being 9D? what kinda logic is that?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I want to point out right off the bat that this assumes that humans also have 9D souls, since it literally states "every human has such" in reference to the soul. Also, there is no mention of Chaos in this

So?
Did you not notice that Human World and everyone and everything in it was born inside a realm presently called Demon World from the past threads or this one?? Human World and it's inhabitants suffered at hands of demons for a long time untill Pluto decided to sever the realm away from DW, and coincidentally saving humans. It's repeatedly hammered over and over in the series that humans and everything associated with them; even their very own realm belongs to demonns. Heck its the main overarching plot of the series, its the reason why Demon Kings want to merge the realms. It blatantly even stated in DMC2.
So yes, humans have their true origin in DW/Darkness etc, they were born in it.

This is headcanon; at least up to this point. Structuring your argument like this is borderline disingenuous since you have yet to actually prove that the realm where souls originate from and return to is in fact Chaos.

Ok, cool. Nice High-Godly Regeneration feat. Also if their 9D soul is erased and they can come back isn't that like a better feat?

Separating Sevil's paragraphs and evidence from each other and presenting it as if it were detached isn't going to help your case.
You clearly saw the scan which said primordial chaos spawned demons and demon world forms them.
Pretending ignorance isn't nice.

This is speculation at best. The scan you're using to justify that Chaos is the darkness before the light split the two worlds gives no context that this "chaos" is the 9D realm where souls originate from and return to. Ok yeah, you could spin it in a way that insinuates the souls of demons go to the demon realm and thus, it is the "chaos". But remember, this is not a canonical statement. This is something you assumed because it made sense, not anything that was directly told to us through the medium. Nowhere in the 9D scan shows that souls return to Chaos.

There is no insinuation or coincidence here. Its just cold hard fact that demons come from and go back to demon world. As the premise of proposal says, Chaos was inside Original World , untill split with Human World happened and it was henceforth more popularly referred to as Demon World. It was also called World of Darkness back in the day and still called World of Darkness now; albiet rarely. Its just different names for the same place.

All you are doing is making up your own personal requirements of how specific and particular the evidence statements have to be worded to qualify in your evaluation. Its unfair and disingenuous. I don't like this.

No. No this does not mean what you think it means. Just because souls will eventually return to the 9D realm, it DOES NOT MEAN the demon world is that 9D realm. Souls that die go to the demon world, sure. But there is absolutely no evidence (that you have presented) that insinuates the demon world is the final resting place of souls.

Wtfs that supposed to mean?
Where else would they go? There are only two primary realms in DMC. Human World and Demon World, and any other realm is just part of Demon World. There is no other third realm, no afterlife, no hell and no heaven. Hell and Heaven is just another name for Demon World.
So tell me Oven where is the final resting place for demons?? I have never in my 2 years of exhausting research of Devil May Cry lore have ever heard of this peculiar final resting place. I am interested, pls show me some proof.

Considering all the above, the 9D realm and the Chaos/demon world have no correlation whatsoever. Why would I start to believe now that the demon world is the 9D realm just because souls go there after death? There is more evidence that assumes otherwise. You need to prove that the demon world created these souls and is the final destination that all souls return to in order for me to believe this is the 9D realm.

You yourself quoted Sevil's evidence verbatim saying Chaos thus by extension DW as it is called present day is where demons are spawned and formed

And now you are asking for for evidence that demon world created demons??

What the **** kind of arguements are these?

And don't bring up the "demons were spawned by the primordial chaos" thing. That scan does not say "souls were spawned by the primordial chaos". And while you're at it, prove that human souls originate from the demon world since, as I've stated above, human souls are also 9D according to your scan.

Demons are souls. They aren't anything separate from it. What else would they be??
It's repeatedly said in every interation of game and novel. They are repeatedly described as evil spirits. That's their primary existence.

A mere glance at the demon physiology page will show that to you.

If you think demons and their souls are two different entities then you are going against basic lore of verse and something firmly established and accepted on this wiki.
Good luck trying to prove otherwise.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I'll reply to rest of stuff later.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I agree with Gilver's points

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Disagree, it being called as 9-D means nothing if we take the feat at face value, as housing multiple low 2-C structures is something that even Low 1-C can do.

If you want the structure being legitimate 1-C then you need to prove each lower dimension being embedded within its corresponding higher one instead of only 4-D structure being embedded.

If that was the requirement then it would be impossible for verses like Fate to have 1A root and SMT to have 1A shenanigans.

They don't have intermediary dimensions between 4D and 1A.
Fate has 6D Avalon, 8D Mooncell and 1A root. Nothing 5D, nothing 7D, nothing 7D-infiniteD layers between.

SMT had uptill 11Ds iirc then directly its 1A.

All you need for Tier 1 is 5+D dimension and it being significantly sized. That's it.

Which we have a 9D realm which is infinite sized, thus 1C.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I do not feel whataboutism should be applied here.

SMT, in-fact, does have intermediaries. 4D Human World (Assiah), 5D (Yetzriah), 6D (Beriah), 1-A (Atziluth, standing above the concept of dimensions entirely).

It was mentioned earlier, let a DMC CRT be about DMC.