The most controversial debate is up here again... Goku vs. Supes.

[The_real_cal_howard]

Snip

Firstly, absolutely none of that was conservative. Secondly, Kep has long debunked peak SSJ2 Teen Gohan being > Super Perfect Cell, and it's currently accepted that they're at best equals. Thirdly, I don't recall Base Goku being SSJ3 level at all during any conversation in a Super arc. Finally, the 40x multiplier for SSJ has been super inconsistent ever since they started fighting in their base forms again.

 

[LordUrien935]

Which is where his intelligence comes in. Superman is extraordinarily intelligent and creative with his use of powers. He's fought people who've countered or nulled his abilities before and still won

 

[Dragomer]

Which is where his intelligence comes in. Superman is extraordinarily intelligent and creative with his use of powers. He's fought people who've countered or nulled his abilities before and still wo

Goku did the same.

Also for each occasions Superman still won, there is one where he was left helpless.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Once again, arguable.

She's done that for thousands of year while tons of people Goku left in the dust did it for millions, like King Kai.

Vegeta was trained by his whole race too, it didn't help against Goku and a race isn't better at martial art than a bunch of martial artist hermit by default, King Kai was litteraly said to be so good that one year of training with him is the same as a thousand year of normal training IIRC.

Superman has a huge stat advantage on Wonder Woman and the combat speed statement was done once by an author who stated she could be wrong, that's hardly hard facts.

>King Kai

One word. Darkseid.

>Vegeta

No he wasn't. He was off planet for his entire childhood conquering planets with Nappa and iirc Raditz.

>Stat advantage

The amount of times they fought on par with each other and that they currently scale to each other begs to differ. And the statement was said by Diana but backed up by Batman himself.

 

[Omegas03]

@Cal

It was conservative because I am ignoring a lot of gains Goku made. I'll concede on the Gohan part but that still makes SSJ Goku at the very least 500 KiloFoe.

Again, SSJ2 Vegeta during the Black arc lolstomped SSJ1 Black who in Base is stronger than SSJ3 U6 arc Goku. The Goku used in this match up compares to that Vegeta.

Idk how is that illogical. Also when has SSJ been inconsistent as 40x?

I still stand by that 600 doesn't have to be treated as an infinite or unreachable value when DB abuses scaling chains too much.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Goku hasn't exhibited creativity in fighting since the Warp Kamehameha. He's won all his fights through sheer numbers ever since Tao Pai Pai, not through exploiting weaknesses (granted he was creative during his fights with Tenshinhan and Piccolo Jr and debatably Raditz). He gets better during the ToP, but this isn't ToP Goku.

 

[Dragomer]

Darkseid is a martial artist or use skill since when ? he just bulldoze people, he even get angry when he has to do anything else, that's litteraly a point of pride for him that no one can stand up to his power, he'd probably get angry if someone said he was using skill.

No, he was, he even joined the squad later than Radditz IIRC, the anime even show him training with a bunch of Saibamen.

And the ammount of time Superman casualy slapped someone as strong or stronger than Diane (or Diane herself) also begs to differ, that's comics for you.

Once again, that's one statement out of the entier comic industry that the author came out and said could be wrong, it also said Superman had faster travel speed and yet it's Diane who has the highter quantifiable travel speed feats between the two IIRC.

 

[DTG499]

I'll just say this cal, Wonder Woman doesn't have analytical prediction, reactive power level, accelerated development nor power mimicry on her profile like goku does. Everyone Diana trains with on her home island is fodder compared to her.

 

[LordUrien935]

Darkseid is a martial artist or use skill since when ? he just bulldoze people, he even get angry when he has to do anything else.
No, he was, he even joined the squad later than Radditz IIRC, the anime even show him training with a bunch of Saibamen.

And the ammount of time Superman casualy slapped someone as strong or stronger than Diane (or Diane herself) also begs to differ, that's comics for you.

Once again, that's one statement out of the entier comic industry that the author came out and said could be wrong.

Darkseid is the greatest fighter on Apokolips and is on par if not superior to Orion in combat skill. Orion stomped Kalibak via sheer skill even though their strength was equal.

And really, when has Goku actually defeated someone with skill and not sheer physical might? In the OG Dragon Ball and early DBZ sure, but after that, when?

 

[Omegas03]

Oh my, we are at over 330 replies now.

Zod vs. Vegeta whe

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Oh my, we are at over 330 replies now.

This is the legendary forbidden debate, what did you expect

 

[LordUrien935]

Oh my, we are at over 330 replies now.
Zod vs. Vegeta whe

People will likely vote Vegeta because Zod's profile is bone dry. He is in dire need of revisions, preferrably from someone like Yobo or Prince.

 

[Dragomer]

Darkseid is a martial artist or use skill since when ? he just bulldoze people, he even get angry when he has to do anything else.
No, he was, he even joined the squad later than Radditz IIRC, the anime even show him training with a bunch of Saibamen.

And the ammount of time Superman casualy slapped someone as strong or stronger than Diane (or Diane herself) also begs to differ, that's comics for you.

Once again, that's one statement out of the entier comic industry that the author came out and said could be wrong.

Darkseid is the greatest fighter on Apokolips and is on par if not superior to Orion in combat skill. Orion stomped Kalibak via sheer skill even though their strength was equal.
And really, when has Goku actually defeated someone with skill and not sheer physical might? In the OG Dragon Ball and early DBZ sure, but after that, when?

Goku always fough against people stronger than him, i can't think of any of his victory against an actual antagonist (rather than flexing fodder like the Ginyu) that was due to strength since he was almost always vastly outstripped in term of power, except Freezer but the only reason Goku had survived long enough to go SSJ was explicitly thanks to his skill.

Hell, technicaly Goku won against Cell since he blew up his top half, which should have killed him according to the whole 'nucleus in my head' thing, Cell just still regenerated because of a legit plothole.

 

[DTG499]

Darkseid is the greatest fighter on Apokolips and is on par if not superior to Orion in combat skill. Orion stomped Kalibak via sheer skill even though their strength was equal.

And really, when has Goku actually defeated someone with skill and not sheer physical might? In the OG Dragon Ball and early DBZ sure, but after that, when?

Frieza, cell, hit, goku black, jiren(via ultra instinct)

 

[Omegas03]

Nah I ain't doing matches with profiles in need of revisions again, that's unfair.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

" Again, SSJ2 Vegeta during the Black arc lolstomped SSJ1 Black who in Base is stronger than SSJ3 U6 arc Goku. The Goku used in this match up compares to that Vegeta."

This makes no sense. Goku and Vegeta are equals. Sure, Vegeta RoT'd himself but Goku didn't. In which you're saying SSJ3 Goku<Base Black<<<SSJ2 Vegeta=SSJ2 Goku.

And before you say that it was U6 Goku, it technically wasn't. It was beginning of Black arc Goku. There was no timeskip and Zenkais petered out of style, so that Goku is the same as the Goku at the end of the arc, with maybe a small power increase.

Also why are you scaling base Black to base Goku? SSJ1 Black (aka SSRose Black) is Blue level. It's clear that he's not the same as Goku.

 

[LordUrien935]

Yeah but when he transforms he gets a power boost and just ragdolls his enemies around.

 

[LordUrien935]

Hit, Goku Black, and Jiren. Since when are we using DBS Goku here?

 

[Dragomer]

Yeah but when he transforms he gets a power boost and just ragdolls his enemies around.

I can't think of any occasions where Goku ragdolls someone except Freezer, which is non-issue since Goku's skill was displayed and noted multiple time during the fight before he went SSJ, even against Yakkon, an absolute fodder, Goku goes out of his way to evade all his attacks with pure skill and then use his light eating habit to kill him rather than just one punch him.

 

[DTG499]

This is manga DBS goku.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Frieza: Goku beats by changing his hair and winning via numbers

Cell: Approximately equals.

Buu: Outpowers in the third hair change. Just cant get past regen.

Beerus: Beat down until changed hair and matches a held back Beerus via sheer numbers.

Frieza again: Changes hair and wears him down until Frieza cheats.

Black: Rage boosts or fuses to overpower.

Jiren: Overpowers via a hair color change.

 

[Dragomer]

Hit, Goku Black, and Jiren. Since when are we using DBS Goku here?

Since the start, it's litteraly Goku from the Goku Black arc.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yakon is the epitome of overpowering via sheer numbers. He eats energy? Then just increase your number so much until he explodes via overstuffing.

 

[Omegas03]

@cal Goku and Vegeta just got stronger during the Black arc, that's why their SSJ2s surpassed SSJ Black who in Base would have stomped SSJ3 Goku otherwise.

And no, I am not literally saying Base Goku/Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku, but Base Goku (halfway through Black arc) > SSJ3 Goku (beginning of Black arc), there's a huge difference in that part. They literally trained (even if it was a short time) before facing Black, even if no Time skip is noticeable the power gains are.

I am kinda scaling Base Goku to Base Black because SSJ2 Vegeta/Goku halfway through the Arc are far above Initial SSJ Black who in Base was above SSJ3 Goku. Base Goku would be somewhat close to Black going by that or at least equal to his previous SSJ3 self.

SSJ/2 Black isn't Blue tier until he got a Zenkai. Manga Black uses SSJ1, 2 and Rose.

 

[Iisdude1]

Saiyans have some pretty good senses as well

 

[Dragomer]

Yakon is the epitome of overpowering via sheer numbers. He eats energy? Then just increase your number so much until he explodes via overstuffing.

By that logic Goku could have just one punched him, it doesn't change that Goku explicitly went out of his way to dodge him through skill instead of speed and use his habit against him instead of overpowering him, Goku only truly ragdolled someone once and that was Freezer after a fight where Goku only survived that long through skill.

Yakkon didn't eat energy, he ate light.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

They trained for like, a couple days. Unless Super's Powerscaling is that bad, there is no way that would put base Goku on the level of his SSJ3 form, especially when it took him a year to master SSJ1 and 7 while dead to even unlock SSJ3.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Also, it's pretty clear Dragomer voted for Goku so no need to put a question mark in the vote count

 

[Omegas03]

@cal

Goku and Vegeta made some crazy gains in the Black arc. SSJ2 Black after a Zenkai stomped SSB Vegeta yet after the Rosat SSB Vegeta stomped SSR Black, SSJ2 Vegeta surpassed his previous SSB self via training in the Rosat. So Base Goku surpassing his previous SSJ3 self isn't far fetched.

Just because it is crazy it doesn't mean it isn't possible.

 

[Omegas03]

Any vote I didn't count btw?

 

[Dragomer]

They trained for like, a couple days. Unless Super's Powerscaling is that bad, there is no way that would put base Goku on the level of his SSJ3 form, especially when it took him a year to master SSJ1 and 7 while dead to even unlock SSJ3.

Nothing say when Goku unlocked SSJ3, for all we know he unlocked it 3 weeks into his stay or he unlocked it 5 second before coming back, we have no info either way.

 

[Omegas03]

And even then it doesn't make a difference considering most gains are plot based anyways. Goku could get 1000x stronger in a day of training or 1.5x in 7 years. It just depends on the showings and intention, Black arc gains were kinda crazy.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That's not crazy. That's stupid (not you of course. The writing there). Black still Zenkais. I get that. Goku and Vegeta don't anymore. The idea that SSJ2 Vegeta becomes the level of SSJB Vegeta after what amounts to a short period of time in the RoSaT is asinine, even if it's right.

...needless to say I recently watched PlagueOfGripes' video on Dragon Ball Powerscaling again.

 

[Dragomer]

Let's be honest, Toyotaro was litteraly one of those 'SSJ5' fan manga artist, if SSJ5 wasn't too asinine for him to use, i don't see why Vegeta becoming that strong would be out of question in his story.

 

[Omegas03]

Crazy or Stupid, it still happened ƒæÇ. SSJ2 Vegeta surpassing his previous SSB is stupid but that's what it is.

Gotta love how close it is to 400 replies and 0% hostility on both sides.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What, are you telling me that Goku doesn't unlock SSJ forms, growing hair on his body and gaining more primate features to the point where he literally becomes Skips from Regular Show?

 

[Spinoirr]

Rip the guy who made that

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

What, are you telling me that Goku doesn't unlock SSJ forms, growing hair on his body and gaining more primate features to the point where he literally becomes Skips from Regular Show?

That! Is an old reference.

 

[Dragomer]

I mean seriously, it's the same dude who made a fanmanga where King Cold had sex with the West Kaioshin to make Freezer before she went to have a kid with Goku while everyone just has SSJ5, telling me something is 'asinine' just tell me it's probably in his story.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I mean seriously, it's the same dude who made a fanmanga where King Cold had sex with the girl Kaioshin to make Freezer before she went to have a kid with Goku while everyone just has SSJ5, telling me something is 'asinine' just tell me it's probably in his story.

UHH, WHAT?!