Yet another Goku vs Superman Thread (7-3-0)

[CryoTheMayo]

For Batman, there's definitely a case, between straight up encountering, throwing hands and stated.
Nightwing idk, I'd assume he shouldn't be wildly different given he's still trained by Batman in all 3, and if Batman is only marginally different, he shouldn't be either by proxy. I personally wouldn't though unless it's Infinite just to be safe.

My issue is that Nightwing likely improved over time, right? Pretty sure Batman has mild superpowers right now via a dip in a liquid metal or something for an example of how much they can change over time.

Although I don't even know how well Nightwing can really scale to it because the scans provided have Midnighter state he is holding back and then it cuts off.

Superman though is an odd case because pretty sure he's ***** with his Post self, and if his Post self has ***** with dudes above Nightwing, like WW, it's a tad roundabout but you could probably get shit going.

Mm..well Goku did defeat Post-Crisis Wonder Woman in a past thread so that's worth noting. Not sure what arguments were used though.

Was talking about Post, but really? Wtf. I can cook one up though, it'll be like a year to go through everything and compile but I can figure it out.

Yup no Pre-Crisis Batman profile.

 

[Spilxson2]

What the heck. Post-Crisis Superman used to be 2-C for stalemating Pre-Crisis Superman. What weird revisions are going on with DC right now?

Anyway, Superman seems to have enough win conditions for this to be added if it ever reaches grace

 

[Chariot190]

My issue is that Nightwing likely improved over time, right? Pretty sure Batman has mild superpowers right now via a dip in a liquid metal or something for an example of how much they can change over time.

Kinda? I mean nightwing at the end will always be above an early career one. But that isn't to say Late Pre wouldn't stomp an early Post for example.

And that? It gave him the bare minimum, it healed him completely, decades of injury, basically making him a fresh Batman yet with all his experience and training. It didn't give him superpowers or anything notable, at best a negligible stat boost.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

What the heck. Post-Crisis Superman used to be 2-C for stalemating Pre-Crisis Superman. What weird revisions are going on with DC right now?

Anyway, Superman seems to have enough win conditions for this to be added if it ever reaches grace

Right now I feel like the wincon is landing a hax punch on Goku before Goku goes Super Saiyan...although maybe the Super Hypnosis can work? Don't see any scans for it on his profile unfortunately.

Kinda? I mean nightwing at the end will always be above an early career one. But that isn't to say Late Pre wouldn't stomp an early Post for example.

I suppose in the end we just need to see the scans of Superman scaling to Batman in skill.

And that? It gave him the bare minimum, it healed him completely, decades of injury, basically making him a fresh Batman yet with all his experience and training. It didn't give him superpowers or anything notable, at best a negligible stat boost.

Depends on how old Pre-Crisis Batman was. I'd argue Post-Flashpoint Batman basically eliminating decades of injury would make him vastly superior.

Checking his profile though it does state the 'Dionesium' gave him Mid-Low regen and enhanced his speed but that might be referring to his body being restored to its prime.

 

[Spilxson2]

I found this. I don't think Manga Goku has resistance to Mind Manipulation so this could be a win condition for Superman here

 

[Chariot190]

Depends on how old Pre-Crisis Batman was. I'd argue Post-Flashpoint Batman basically eliminating decades of injury would make him vastly superior.

Oh he is, but that's a stat thing, not skill, technique or training. In fact they're even said to be about the same, with PFP being a tad quicker due to being younger.

Checking his profile though it does state the 'Dionesium' gave him Mid-Low regen and enhanced his speed but that might be referring to his body being restored to its prime.

Yeah it's said he's quicker as his body is now in peak condition without thousands of lasting permanent affects from injury.

 

[Kroneii1]

I don't think Manga Goku has resistance to Mind Manipulation so this could be a win condition for Superman here

No really, db characters can resist mental manipulation like majin vegeta.
Anyway I give my vote to goku, for having more powerful ranged attacks, better combat skills and could ki barriers counteract superman wincon?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I found this. I don't think Manga Goku has resistance to Mind Manipulation so this could be a win condition for Superman here

Goku is very familiar with telepathy, to the extent that his version works even while unconscious, and is aware of mind control via Babidi. he also does have Supernatural Willpower but I don't know if that can be used here. Either way, Superman's Mind Control seems to require time to pull off and requires him to speak into his target's mind, even having to repeat his instructions, so I believe Goku would immediately catch on and would react with his full power.

Essentially I believe the moment Goku feels Superman trying to control his mind, he'll go Super Saiyan and aim to defeat him in one blow, Goku could even power up with his AoE aura on reaction which should kill him with the large power and speed difference created by transforming.

Oh he is, but that's a stat thing, not skill, technique or training. In fact they're even said to be about the same, with PFP being a tad quicker due to being younger.

Shouldn't Post-Flashpoint have a faster mind as well because his body was healed? Or is it still aged?

Yeah it's said he's quicker as his body is now in peak condition without thousands of lasting permanent affects from injury.

imo the description on his profile is a bit misleading then. It should clarify he's faster because of being back in his physical prime.

 

[Spilxson2]

Also found these

 

[Chariot190]

Shouldn't Post-Flashpoint have a faster mind as well because his body was healed? Or is it still aged?

His body was healed. So he fights like a young Batman, with the expertise of a 30-40yo batman. But isn't like a whole stat gap, it's like the difference of having your arm broken and healed and throwing a punch, and throwing a punch without ever having been injured.

 

[Spilxson2]

Well Pre-Crisis Superman is a bit weird to debate because of his profile being lacking but Goku would likely skip straight to Super Saiyan at least, which should put Superman in one shot territory. He has no need to test himself or Superman when he already knows what Superman can do.

Well yeah, but then it'd be a debate on if Superman can get his hax or if Goku can just one shot him. Because I'm pretty sure that at the start of the fight, if Goku does any kind of power up, even something like Kaioken, or just gets stronger naturally due to Reactive Power Level, Superman basically can't actually harm him. Maybe if they both have prior knowledge it could become an incon

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Also found these

First image I doubt is really usable because it seems to require Superman getting right up in his target's face and staring them in the eyes. In regards to Superman's passive hypnosis I don't think that will trick Goku if his Ki Sense works on him (which I feel it should, it detects life force and Superman has the components of Ki in his body from what I can tell). And he's obviously well-versed in hiding his own power and fighting those who can hide their power.

Well yeah, but then it'd be a debate on if Superman can get his hax or if Goku can just one shot him. Because I'm pretty sure that at the start of the fight, if Goku does any kind of power up, even something like Kaioken, or just gets stronger naturally due to Reactive Power Level, Superman basically can't actually harm him. Maybe if they both have prior knowledge it could become an incon

Goku will never use the Kaio-Ken IC. He never uses it in the DBS manga outside of the 'principles of Kaio-Ken' used only out of desperation against Jiren (and I believe) Moro.

In this instance while Goku likes to test his power, he is fighting to win. So if he finds Superman uninteresting to fight he will aim to finish the fight ASAP. If he senses Superman lacks in power and dodges a few of his attacks he might just go Super Saiyan to finish it. He's had no qualms doing that against opponents like Frost shortly after RoF or just exploding Yakon in the Buu Saga.

Actually thinking on it, I'm pretty sure Goku only really ever enters his 'wakuwaku' mode of thought when he fights opponents that were hyped up beforehand like Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, Buu (who he still chose to work with others and kill because of how dangerous and erratic he was), Beerus (who he accepted the SSG ritual to fight, which he claims he disliked), Hit (who he was gauging by using Base form then immediately went Super Saiyan), Black, Jiren and I suppose Granolah.

Basically if his opponent doesn't have a hyped up reputation and he senses nothing too interesting about their power or fighting style or if he even just views them as too much of a threat he will just power up and defeat them quickly. Examples of that are along the lines of Nappa, Recoome, Jeice, Burter, Yakon, Kid Buu, Frost, Merged Zamasu (He went as far as a Hakai for that one) and Saganbo.

So in short, Goku's willingness to just go Super Saiyan and win the fight is dependent on how interesting he finds Superman as an opponent. He likely won't sense any crazy power from him so that's going to boil down to his fighting skills and powers. The closest example to this is Frost, who Goku was

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Goku's response to Frost
Goku had an inherent interest in Frost because of his similarity to Freeza even before the fight, Freeza being his previous opponent who was extremely powerful. When fighting Frost he intentionally held back because He realised Frost was trying to gauge his abilities and also knew Frost would transform over time, he had pre-knowledge that Frost was holding back as well. Even when Frost used his Assault Form (Which Goku had never seen before) Goku was still able to deduce it wasn't his true final form, hence still holding back. and he chose to go Super Saiyan. And I really don't want to post the entire fight here but based on all the pages I looked at, Frost was unable to land any blows on SS1 Goku and was one-sidedly beaten down. He was so worn down that he saw no other option but to cheat via a hidden poison needle. As for Frost's skill level, Vados refers to him as Universe 6's 'strongest' warrior but I believe this is a mistranslation and it's actually meant to be 'best fighter', as in at hand-to-hand combat but I can't really verify that right this second.

So in short Goku had an inherent interest in testing Frost's abilities due to his ability to transform and similarity to Freeza so he intentionally held back. Even so when Assault Frost matched Base Goku, Goku went Super Saiyan and even when he saw Frost's true power was far below him he remained Super Saiyan and one-sidedly beat him down.

Super Saiyan Goku (Goku remained SS1 despite outclassing Frost in every way) >> True Form Frost >> Assault Form Frost = Base Goku (Goku went SS1 here) >> 1st Form Frost

Because of all this I believe Goku would probably go Super Saiyan 1 fairly quickly even if he far outclasses Superman. He has no inherent interest in him, has no reason to think Superman has any further power (especially since he can likely sense his strength via Ki Sense) and might not even be interested in Superman's level of skill after dodging a few of his blows and analysing his fighting style. He's going in this to win the fight after all and has demonstrated that he has no problem walling his opponent with raw strength.

---

Do I believe this should apply to RoF Goku? Yes. He underwent no notable character development from RoF that is noticeable later in the story. So I believe Goku's characterisation VS Frost would be the same as his characterisation in his RoF key.

 

[FireSwordHero]

TLDR.

Anyway Superman punches Goku and he gets ******* disintegrated. GG

Ok its not simply GG, but I do want to point out that Superman just outhaxes Goku in so many ways that its not even funny, even if we were to highball it and say Goku is superior in AP.

Goku fires an energy blast? Superman can absorb not only solar energy, but also electricity and even magic, so Ki shouldn't be impossible for him to absorb. Even if it isn't something he can absorb Superman can always become intangible to dodge his attacks, and we know Goku's can't hit non-physical beings due to the contrast shown between regular ki attacks and Hakai, which is highly specialized to the God's of destruction (Beerus can erase ghosts, but Goku can't).

Superman also has a lot of skills that he can use to his advantage, be it potential wincons such as his Super Hypnosis and Deconstruction, or stuff that gives him edges in a fight via distractions, such as his Super-Ventriloquism (to create sounds to distract Goku) or Shapeshifting (to trick Goku). The only two things that probably wouldnt work are ironically his heat vision and Freeze Breath, though I do think the latter could potentially still freeze him in ice (even if it cant hurt him).

Finally, the last thing to consider are their intelligence and characters.

Goku is ... generally dumb, and even though he is a genius when it comes to fighting, he is someone who fights very directly with the expectation that his opponents will fight equally, and generally struggles with more trickier opponents as stated by Roshi in the TOP.

In contrast, despite his lackluster appearance, Superman is a genius who's intellect surpasses that of supercomputers, and while he's likely inferior in his skill in martial arts, he more than makes up for it with his aformentioned intellect and the fact that he's very experienced with his own powerset. In addition, Superman generally fights with the purpose of stopping his opponents by any means necassary (barring killing) and with whatever abilities he can use, so he would likely do the same thing here and not fight on Goku's terms and rather his own, meaning he would be a more trickier fighter in this matchup (which as we said before, is something Goku generally struggles with).

Lastly in terms of overall stamina, while Superman may not have the unending stamina of his Post-Crisis counterpart, his ability to constantly absorb solar radiation means that in a fight of endurance, Goku would run out of Ki faster that Superman could be drained of solar energy.

All this being said, Superman's greater hax, superior intelligence, greater smarts and superior stamina means that even with Goku's superior AP, the saiyan from Earth is left fumbling in the dark by the Kryptonian from earth's might and mind.

That being said, Superman wins by using his newfound power of SUPER COOKING to distract Goku with a feast.

And yes SUPER-COOKING is totally definetely real and im not making this up, see?

Also:

His speed and power multiplies by 50x in just Super Saiyan 1 and over 500x in Super Saiyan 2. Superman is seemingly only baseline 3 2-C on the VS Wiki.

The DC universe is also many times bigger than our universe or the Dragon Ball one and Goku's God Base scales from a feat that puts him at an inferior level, even with multiplies. Also the super saiyan 2 and 3 transformations shouldn't be factored in because:

1. They aren't included in his ROF key
2. They have been effectively replaced by Super Saiyan Blue, which is the God Ki that gave him his 2C rating combined with the Original Super Saiyan.
3. It wouldn't make sense for Goku to use SSB is his battle against Golden Frieza if SS2 or SS3 granted a greater multiplier when he is in his new 2C base.

 

[Robo432343]

Superman skillstomps and haxstomps bro
Close this, man

 

[Spilxson2]

I'm seeing a lot of arguments for both sides though. Goku's a ton of times more powerful than superman

 

[noninho]

Think I'll be Goku FRA

 

[Spilxson2]

Think I'll be Goku FRA

Is it really controversial though? There haven't really been that many arguments here, except for one guy being asked to provide scans, which isn't really that much. Wouldn't any matchup between 2 popular characters like "Sonic vs Goku" also lead to "hostility between members"? If there's hostility, that seems like the fault of the members and not the person who created the matchup. If legitimate arguments are being made for both sides and no one's actually being hostile it should be fine, right?

 

[Spilxson2]

Oh. Also, counted as one vote for Goku

 

[Spilxson2]

I think I'll count Robo and FireSword as votes for Superman as well

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

So as far as I understand, the current argument is over whether or not Superman scales to analytic prediction feats Goku might not be able to counter, right? Seeing as travel/combat speed should scale to mental processing speed, what’s stop Goku from reading Superman’s “going through a million battle scenarios” mind?

Telepathy (By sharpening his mind[17], Goku gained the supernatural ability of telepathy — psychic communications ignoring all distances[17] — enabling him to speak to others without his voice[18], even intercepting conversations between the Living Universe and the Other World[19], despite his body being beaten and battered. Additionally, he possesses a mysterious technique[17] that allows him to project himself onto others from beyond the grave[20], albeit through the assistance of King Kai[21]; he can scour the minds of others[22] by projecting his consciousness into their heartsthrough contact[23]; and his telepathic abilities can even be utilized while unconscious[17], as he remained tuned in to the conflict with the Androids[24], picking up on the initial defeat to Androids 17 and 18, Piccolo and Kami's fusion[25], and even the existence of Cell[26], despite never meeting the creature before)

And as I mentioned before, Dragon Ball characters have shown the ability to overpower clairvoyance. Wouldn’t that count for something as far as resistance to analytical prediction goes?

 

[Abu2411]

Superman FRA

 

[Jason_Courne]

Goku fires an energy blast? Superman can absorb not only solar energy, but also electricity and even magic, so Ki shouldn't be impossible for him to absorb. Even if it isn't something he can absorb Superman can always become intangible to dodge his attacks, and we know Goku's can't hit non-physical beings due to the contrast shown between regular ki attacks and Hakai, which is highly specialized to the God's of destruction (Beerus can erase ghosts, but Goku can't).

Ki is not electricity, nor is it radiation, nor is it magic. Ki is... well chi, life force

Superman really has no experience with chi fighters and has no proof of absorbing that type of energy

 

[noninho]

Is it really controversial though? There haven't really been that many arguments here, except for one guy being asked to provide scans, which isn't really that much. Wouldn't any matchup between 2 popular characters like "Sonic vs Goku" also lead to "hostility between members"? If there's hostility, that seems like the fault of the members and not the person who created the matchup. If legitimate arguments are being made for both sides and no one's actually being hostile it should be fine, right?

I'm all jokes, mate.
But yeah, it's 100% fine afaik

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Anyway Superman punches Goku and he gets ***** disintegrated. GG

Has to land a punch on him first. Which he can't.

Ok its not simply GG, but I do want to point out that Superman just outhaxes Goku in so many ways that its not even funny, even if we were to highball it and say Goku is superior in AP.

Superman's only hax choices here depend on landing a punch on him. The hypnosis is good but takes too long and too much focus, it will just make Goku go Super Saiyan immediately and finish it.

Goku fires an energy blast? Superman can absorb not only solar energy, but also electricity and even magic, so Ki shouldn't be impossible for him to absorb. Even if it isn't something he can absorb Superman can always become intangible to dodge his attacks, and we know Goku's can't hit non-physical beings due to the contrast shown between regular ki attacks and Hakai, which is highly specialized to the God's of destruction (Beerus can erase ghosts, but Goku can't).

Ki isn't Electricity or Magic. It's is Ki or Chi. Funnily enough I seem to recall Post-Crisis or Post-Flashpoint Superman having a weakness to it.

Superman also has a lot of skills that he can use to his advantage, be it potential wincons such as his Super Hypnosis and Deconstruction, or stuff that gives him edges in a fight via distractions, such as his Super-Ventriloquism (to create sounds to distract Goku) or Shapeshifting (to trick Goku). The only two things that probably wouldnt work are ironically his heat vision and Freeze Breath, though I do think the latter could potentially still freeze him in ice (even if it cant hurt him).

Decon is a glorified hax punch. Super Hypnosis takes time. Goku has Supernatural Willpower + Telepathy + Experience. Super-Ventriloquism is useless because Goku has Ki Sense and is used to opponents faking sounds or trying to distract him. Shapeshifting is also useless because, again, he can sense Ki. He also has experience with shapeshifters via Oolong and Puar.

Goku is ... generally dumb, and even though he is a genius when it comes to fighting, he is someone who fights very directly with the expectation that his opponents will fight equally, and generally struggles with more trickier opponents as stated by Roshi in the TOP.

Goku does not fight directly nor does he fight 'equally'. Goku has regularly abused his superior power, skill and techniques to mock and screw with his opponents. Against Botamo he just flipped him over and tossed him out the ring. Against Frost he just stat-walled him. Against Hit he had no qualms just stat walling him with Blue after solving his Time Skip. Against Golden Freeza he just waited it out until Freeza grew weak then beat him. Against Yakon he just exploded him. Against Kid Buu he just blew him up with the Spirit Bomb with Vegeta and Satan's help and he sure as hell had plenty of help with Freeza.

The thing you're thinking of is Cell which is crap because Goku gave him a senzu bean to force Gohan into awakening his power, believing it was the only way to defeat him. He wanted Gohan to face an overwhelming power gap.

In contrast, despite his lackluster appearance, Superman is a genius who's intellect surpasses that of supercomputers, and while he's likely inferior in his skill in martial arts, he more than makes up for it with his aformentioned intellect and the fact that he's very experienced with his own powerset. In addition, Superman generally fights with the purpose of stopping his opponents by any means necassary (barring killing) and with whatever abilities he can use, so he would likely do the same thing here and not fight on Goku's terms and rather his own, meaning he would be a more trickier fighter in this matchup (which as we said before, is something Goku generally struggles with).

Intelligence means very little when it comes to a fight decided by landing a punch. None of the methods provided by you for Superman are going to stop Goku or require outdoing Goku at h2h combat. You saying Goku 'struggles' with tricky fighters is just plain wrong. The one example of that is a statement from the DBS...Anime. Meaning it's irrelevant here. This is Manga Goku.

Lastly in terms of overall stamina, while Superman may not have the unending stamina of his Post-Crisis counterpart, his ability to constantly absorb solar radiation means that in a fight of endurance, Goku would run out of Ki faster that Superman could be drained of solar energy.

Stamina is irrelevant because this is not a fight of endurance. It's decided within a few seconds. And Goku has enough stamina to fight with Gohan for at least 24 hours straight back in the Cell Saga.

All this being said, Superman's greater hax, superior intelligence, greater smarts and superior stamina means that even with Goku's superior AP, the saiyan from Earth is left fumbling in the dark by the Kryptonian from earth's might and mind.

Superman does not have 'greater smarts' in regards to combat. And as I said superior stamina is irrelevant' Supeior intelligence doesn't do anything for him in this fight where Goku is in his element and Superman has zero knowledge of Goku's skills, just his power.

That being said, Superman wins by using his newfound power of SUPER COOKING to distract Goku with a feast.

And yes SUPER-COOKING is totally definetely real and im not making this up, see?

Takes time and preparation to do and he has zero knowledge of Goku's love for food.

Also:

The DC universe is also many times bigger than our universe or the Dragon Ball one and Goku's God Base scales from a feat that puts him at an inferior level, even with multiplies. Also the super saiyan 2 and 3 transformations shouldn't be factored in because:

1. They aren't included in his ROF key
2. They have been effectively replaced by Super Saiyan Blue, which is the God Ki that gave him his 2C rating combined with the Original Super Saiyan.
3. It wouldn't make sense for Goku to use SSB is his battle against Golden Frieza if SS2 or SS3 granted a greater multiplier when he is in his new 2C base.

This is all irrelevant as Goku does have access to Super Saiyan 2 and 3 in his key. They also weren't replaced by Blue. And Blue is far more powerful.

You clearly have no idea of how the VS Wiki treats the form multipliers so here they are:

Super Saiyan 1 = 50x Base​

Super Saiyan Grade 3 = 500x Base​

Super Saiyan 2 = At least 500x Base​

Super Saiyan 3 = At least 500x Base (People are trying to argue for this one's multiplier still)​

Super Saiyan God = 250,000x Base (Yes, this was accepted.)​

Super Saiyan Blue = 12,500,000x Base (50x Super Saiyan God, which was also accepted).​

Goku has access to all of these forms starting with his RoF key. If you have a problem with this then make a revision thread.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Superman skillstomps and haxstomps bro
Close this, man

No one has provided any examples of Superman having any skill advantage over Goku or even being anywhere near Goku's level. His 'hax' provided on his profile is also dependent on h2h skill which Goku specialises in.

Seriously, has a single Superman supporter provided even a single scan for any of their claims so far? The closest I can recall is Super Cooking being cited and that's it. Just a lot of 'Superman skillstomps' with zero arguments or evidence to support it. And his profile doesn't reflect it even slightly so...

 

[Robo432343]

No one has provided any examples of Superman having any skill advantage over Goku or even being anywhere near Goku's level. His 'hax' provided on his profile is also dependent on h2h skill which Goku specialises in.

Seriously, has a single Superman supporter provided even a single scan for any of their claims so far? The closest I can recall is Super Cooking being cited and that's it. Just a lot of 'Superman skillstomps' with zero arguments or evidence to support it. And his profile doesn't reflect it even slightly so...

ong bruh goku solo

nah coz u said goku holds back in character which gives superman a big opportunity to win

 

[CryoTheMayo]

ong bruh goku solo

nah coz u said goku holds back in character which gives superman a big opportunity to win

No one has argued for how Superman can land a blow on Goku yet. Beyond "omg Superman skillstomp lol" with zero scans and when his profile doesn't even remotely reference that. That isn't even an argument.

I also posted a fight where Goku fought someone similar to him in base who he then statwalled with Super Saiyan. It doesn't take him long at all and he only toyed around in that fight at first because he had knowledge for that opponent doing the same ahead of time. Against Superman he would transform much faster.

 

[Cass5373]

I vote for Goku for the arguments mentioned above

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Goku fra. Seriously, there's no evidence presented that would put Superman on Goku's level of CQC. At least none that we can verify.

 

[FireSwordHero]

Honestly this matchup makes me more frustrated the more I look at it and for a lot of reasons.

• I've been looking through all possible links and blogs, but there's nothing suggesting that Pre-Crisis Superman scales to 3 universes. Even then, I doubt thats his actual limit since DC universes are many times bigger than that of a standard universe.
• This entire matchup only goes in Goku's favour because of the speed equalization, yet Goku is still allowed to get multiple speed amps through his transformations. Meanwhile Superman can fly through time, but nah **** that speed is equal so now he can't do jack.
• On the dragon ball side of things, its actually dissapointing how everything Post-DB shows next to no actual martial arts now that everyone flies and everything is more focused on giant lasers. Its hard for me to take Goku being a martial artist as a serious topic since he uses actual martial arts skills so sparingly.

I'm still voting Superman, but this matchup is really annoying me now.

 

[Abu2411]

Honestly this matchup makes me more frustrated the more I look at it and for a lot of reasons.

• I've been looking through all possible links and blogs, but there's nothing suggesting that Pre-Crisis Superman scales to 3 universes. Even then, I doubt thats his actual limit since DC universes are many times bigger than that of a standard universe.
• This entire matchup only goes in Goku's favour because of the speed equalization, yet Goku is still allowed to get multiple speed amps through his transformations. Meanwhile Superman can fly through time, but nah ***** that speed is equal so now he can't do jack.
• On the dragon ball side of things, its actually dissapointing how everything Post-DB shows next to no actual martial arts now that everyone flies and everything is more focused on giant lasers. Its hard for me to take Goku being a martial artist as a serious topic since he uses actual martial arts skills so sparingly.

I'm still voting Superman, but this matchup is really annoying me now.

This could be relevant, then:

Versus Thread Rules

The VS Battles Wiki is mainly a site that attempts to index the statistics of characters across many different fictional franchises. However, as the site name implies, we also allow our members to pit fictional characters against each other in hypothetical matchups for entertainment purposes...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Honestly this matchup makes me more frustrated the more I look at it and for a lot of reasons.

• I've been looking through all possible links and blogs, but there's nothing suggesting that Pre-Crisis Superman scales to 3 universes. Even then, I doubt thats his actual limit since DC universes are many times bigger than that of a standard universe.
• This entire matchup only goes in Goku's favour because of the speed equalization, yet Goku is still allowed to get multiple speed amps through his transformations. Meanwhile Superman can fly through time, but nah ***** that speed is equal so now he can't do jack.
• On the dragon ball side of things, its actually dissapointing how everything Post-DB shows next to no actual martial arts now that everyone flies and everything is more focused on giant lasers. Its hard for me to take Goku being a martial artist as a serious topic since he uses actual martial arts skills so sparingly.

I'm still voting Superman, but this matchup is really annoying me now.

The issue is that DC is undergoing a huge revision and none of the big profiles have been done yet. I was told Superman could take years. His Pre-Crisis profile used to have many more feats, statements, etc but it seemed that all got removed at some point. I've stated in this thread multiple times that I feel the result won't be satisfactory either way because Superman's page is so incomplete.

And yeah, most fights here are going to be speed equalised. Even if Goku were locked to Base form he should still have access to Speed amps because of how the Afterimage technique works. Plus while it's true Goku isn't Immeasurable speed for Pre-Crisis Superman, DBS does blitz many of the DC feats currently used on the VS Wiki. Post-Crisis Superman is something like 87 Quadrillion times the speed of light and Base Goku is around 112 Sextillion times the speed of light. If we used the old 2-A Pre-Crisis Superman with speed unequalised then the only Goku he could face is Xeno Goku who is 2-A in base form and has immeasurable speed and I'm pretty sure haxstomps him.

As for 'no martial arts' DBS does actually have some pretty damn good skill feats for Goku but we can't use most of them. This is Goku at basically the start of Super.

 

[Huesito88]

"I've been looking through all possible links and blogs, but there's nothing suggesting that Pre-Crisis Superman scales to 3 universes. Even then, I doubt thats his actual limit since DC universes are many times bigger than that of a standard universe."

Are you referring to the greater Cosmology? (Superman was rated as 2-A prior, I wouldn't doubt it if Pre Crisis could scale higher into it) Or the fact that the DC Universe is Physically ridiculously larger than our real life one?

 

[Chariot190]

This entire matchup only goes in Goku's favour because of the speed equalization, yet Goku is still allowed to get multiple speed amps through his transformations. Meanwhile Superman can fly through time, but nah ***** that speed is equal so now he can't do jack.

Good point actually, while speed equal is allowed, if a slower character beats the normally faster character due to speeds amp, that shit isn't allowed.

It'd be like putting Raiden against the Flash, and then Raiden wins because he just goes Ripper Mode and blitzes when normally he's ten fucktillion times slower.

For this match to even be added, Goku either has to start out in his final form so the equalization applies to that form's speed and not a lower form, or he can't transform.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

To be fair it's speed amps in bursts

For this match to even be added, Goku either has to start out in his final form so the equalization applies to that form's speed and not a lower form, or he can't transform.

That causes another problem: Goku one-shots by virtue of being 12.5 million times stronger

 

[CryoTheMayo]

To be fair it's speed amps in bursts

That causes another problem: Goku one-shots by virtue of being 12.5 million times stronger

And if Goku started in his strongest form he would just beat Superman instantly. He has no reason or purpose to trying to hold back when he's already in his strongest form. Even something like his aura could passively kill Superman.

 

[Chariot190]

To be fair it's speed amps in bursts

The lowest is a 50x amp

That causes another problem: Goku one-shots by virtue of being 12.5 million times stronger

Supes is less likely to lose against a Goku 10,000,000,000,000x stronger than him, at equal speed, than he is against a Goku 10x WEAKER than him but with a 10,000,000,000,000x speed buff. Supes has a slew of methods to avoid getting hit entirely, but he'd never get a chance if he's punched in the **** a billion times before he can think to do it.

 

[Chariot190]

Even something like his aura could passively kill Superman.

Has this ever actually happened for anyone except Frieza.

If we want to call a huge energy dome an "aura".

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

The lowest is a 50x amp

Talking about the afterimage and speed amp bursts