The most controversial debate is up here again... Goku vs. Supes.

[DTG499]

Him not using it before that moment proves he copied it? Okay, very convincing argument. Again, there's no evidence to say he just stole Krillins technique, and given his pride, he'd never do that at this point.

People copy techniques all the time in dragon ball you would need to be able to prove vegeta knew the technique before he saw it.

 

[Dragomer]

Years ago I'd never concede on this, but now I can see that this argument is completely correct.
Sups FRA.

Goku would be able to tell that supes HV would be lethal to him for a couple reasons. When Frieza was launching death beams at goku the first fight his first move was to dodge it. People within dragon ball are able to tell what would be a lethal attack. Vegeta was able to tell that Krillin's Kienzan would kill Nappa without even being able to sense Ki.

Vegeta knew about Kienzan because he himself can do pretty much the exact same technique which he demonstrated in that arc, so I don't think they can just sense danger or something, just because attacks get dodged doesn't mean that, it's natural to dodge attacks.

Vegeta copied it from Krillin, he didn't have that technique before as far as we know, same for Freezer.

That's straight up headcanon. Nowhere is it stated they stole his move, there are many KI attacks that are very similar.

Both cases of someone other than Krillin using a similar technique are litteraly after they themself saw and were threatened by Krillin's kienzan, we never saw someone who never saw that technique just throw it around, unlike say the flying technique, what's more Vegeta only reacted when the attack was thrown IIRC, if it was because he had the same attack, he would have recognized it when Krillin formed it.

Which doesn't prove anything. Again, Vegeta wouldn't steal a technique, especially not from Krillin at this point in the series. As I said, many KI attacks in dragon ball are extremely similar, it's not exactly famed for it's versatility.
It actualy does prove a lot, that's the same way Goku got kienzan, he just copied it from Krillin, we don't need to be told to see the obvious.

Vegeta not stealing techniques come from nowhere, he litteraly steal people's planete at this point in the show, his philosophie is 'if i can take, i'm right to take it', he litteraly also steal ki sensing as a whole from the earthling.

And yet we have no similar attack by anyone except 2 people who were explicitly threatened by that technique before using it.

 

[DTG499]

Yes he would and he did, he copied the technique of sensing energy why wouldn't he copy the Kienzan?

 

[Purgy]

Him not using it before that moment proves he copied it? Okay, very convincing argument. Again, there's no evidence to say he just stole Krillins technique, and given his pride, he'd never do that at this point.

People copy techniques all the time in dragon ball you would need to be able to prove vegeta knew the technique before he saw it.
So because Krillin demonstrated it first it automatically means nobody else can ever use a similar technique like that before he did? I'm sure there's a fallacy to describe exactly why that argument is faulty.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Goku does that all the time, there is litteraly two instance of him slapping a ki blast away and that was when he confirmed multiple time they were no threat to him, every single other instance has Goku dodging or counter blasting.

Superman goes for dodges or just tank it most of the time if he doesn't know the attack is a killing move.

I'd need source on them being the same and even if it is, we have no indication Flash isn't just way better at it than Superman and thus can do it since Superman never was shown, said or hinted to be able to do it.

No, I'm saying Superman's go to move against an attack he doesn't know can kill him isn't intangibility, otherwise most Superman fights would go way differently.

With smaller ki blasts he will just slap them away and counter blast. With larger ki blasts or special techniques he will counter-blast or dodge. Yes, I know this. So Superman who only allocates a trickle of energy into his heat vision will be attempted to be slapped away at some point.

Superman doesn't just tank random large energy beams.

Well I'm not getting scans I'm just telling you they both do it through vibrations. You can believe that or not. I already told you the difference too. Flash just stops vibrating when he phases inside people. Superman doesn't do that. The only way Flash's could be faster is through vibrating faster.

Superman's normal stance on getting large unknown beams fired at him is not to stand their and tank it. He would go intangible. Also Superman doesn't know of intangibility or could use it throughout his entire Post Crisis run which is why he didn't use it often.

I'm pretty sure Superman's can gain information and data about his opponent passively too according to the profile.

 

[DTG499]

Unless proven otherwise yes. Frieza didn't use it until he saw Krillin use it and the same with vegeta.

 

[Omegas03]

Now we're saying Superman will just stand there and take the attack? No.

Tbf at the start of the thread most Superman votes assumed Goku will stand there at receive Heat Vision attacks.

 

[Dragomer]

Him not using it before that moment proves he copied it? Okay, very convincing argument. Again, there's no evidence to say he just stole Krillins technique, and given his pride, he'd never do that at this point.

People copy techniques all the time in dragon ball you would need to be able to prove vegeta knew the technique before he saw it.

So because Krillin demonstrated it first it automatically means nobody else can ever use a similar technique like that before he did? I'm sure there's a fallacy to describe exactly why that argument is faulty.
If someone use a technique first and then almost kill another character with it and then the other character start using it (and later start using another one of their ability that the character himself specificaly did not have), we assume the second character copied it from the first, it's not a fallacy.

Especialy when the second character showed no sign of knowing anything about that attack until it almost killed their ally / themself.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Dragomer

Don't quote such walls of text.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

He would be able to feel the heat coming from it via his enhanced senses.

That doesn't mean he can sense the molecule destroying properties. Ki blasts also exude heat so it's nothing special.

 

[Purgy]

People copy techniques all the time in dragon ball you would need to be able to prove vegeta knew the technique before he saw it.
If someone use a technique first and then almost kill another character with it and then the other character start using it (and later start using another one of their ability that the character himself specificaly did not have), we assume the second character copied it from the first, it's not a fallacy.
Especialy when the second character showed no sign of knowing anything about that attack until it almost killed their ally / themself.

You might assume that, but it's not a global assumption that is just accepted on this Forum. Again, it conflicts with his personality, Vegeta considers himself superior to everbody else at this point and you're trying to say he'd steal a technique from not only a Human, but a fodder Human (Compared to himself).

 

[DTG499]

@Purgy BTW both of Vegeta's and Frieza's power mimicry listings are because they copied Krillin's Kienzan. You can check it out for yourself.

 

[Omegas03]

Should I make a new thread to continue this one?

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Should I make a new thread to continue this one?

Not until it reaches 500.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Purgy Same goes to you. Delete part of the quote so you get the part you want to talk about.

@Omega Considering this has been civilized at the moment, yes, but wait a bit because we have room for 90 replies.

 

[Dragomer]

Goku does that all the time, there is litteraly two instance of him slapping a ki blast away and that was when he confirmed multiple time they were no threat to him, every single other instance has Goku dodging or counter blasting.
Superman goes for dodges or just tank it most of the time if he doesn't know the attack is a killing move.

I'd need source on them being the same and even if it is, we have no indication Flash isn't just way better at it than Superman and thus can do it since Superman never was shown, said or hinted to be able to do it.

No, I'm saying Superman's go to move against an attack he doesn't know can kill him isn't intangibility, otherwise most Superman fights would go way differently.

With smaller ki blasts he will just slap them away and counter blast. With larger ki blasts or special techniques he will counter-blast or dodge. Yes, I know this. So Superman who only allocates a trickle of energy into his heat vision will be attempted to be slapped away at some point.
Superman doesn't just tank random large energy beams.

Well I'm not getting scans I'm just telling you they both do it through vibrations. You can believe that or not. I already told you the difference too. Flash just stops vibrating when he phases inside people. Superman doesn't do that. The only way Flash's could be faster is through vibrating faster.

Superman's normal stance on getting large unknown beams fired at him is not to stand their and tank it. He would go intangible. Also Superman doesn't know of intangibility or could use it throughout his entire Post Crisis run which is why he didn't use it often.

I'm pretty sure Superman's can gain information and data about his opponent passively too according to the profile.

No, he doesn't, at least not until he confirm they aren't a threat, Goku explicitly dodge whenever he can.

Goku dodge smaller ki blast more than the big ones since big ones have to be countered to avoid widespread destruction most of the time, even as a SSJ against Freezer, he dodge more than he does anything else

Not with Goku sensing the attack both with his ehanced sense and his sensing ability.

If you're not giving me any exemple of him doing so or being told he can do so, i don't think it's a receivable argument, you'd need at least a statement saying that if one can do it, so can the other.

No, going intangible isn't and has never been Superman's normal stance, he either try to heat vision, fly away or tank it, all three of those happened hundreds of time compared to the handful where he went intangible.

Superman's information analysis doesn't extend to knowing how strong an attack he has never seen before is.

 

[Purgy]

@Purgy BTW both of Vegeta's and Frieza's power mimicry listings are because they copied Krillin's Kienzan. You can check it out for yourself.

Whilst I agree with them having the ability to copy techniques, I disagree with Vegeta having copied Krillins instead of already having a similar technique. Regardless, I've seen how much of a mess DB threads can become so making a CRT discussing it would be a waste of time and it doesn't really impact the outcome of this battle anyway.

 

[DTG499]

THE WALL

 

[The_Calaca]

@Dragomer What DTG said.

I'm not going to edit your comments.

Don't quote each other over and over.

 

[DTG499]

Goku is an objectively better combatant than Superman. I'd also argue to be better than Wonder Woman. But with his information analysis and overall higher intelligence he could win with an intangible heat vision combo. Tbh I am in between goku and incon.

 

[Dragomer]

@Dragomer What DTG said.
I'm not going to edit your comments.

Don't quote each other over and over.

It's litteraly around the same size as C2's comment, a wall of text is more like what CryptoTheMayo does IMO.

 

[Purgy]

Btw, I vote for Superman I think his moveset is better and as others have said he has more ways to win. Goku starting in base doesn't exactly put things in his favor either since whilst it's possible he'll either instantly or very early access his other forms, I feel like in character he's going to test the waters first.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

"No, he doesn't, at leats not until he confirm they aren't a threat, Goku explicitly dodge whenever he can."

"Confirming they aren't a threat" isn't needed. Goku normally fights people comparable to him in power and their small ki blasts aren't going to do anything. So he will just assume Superman's "small ki blast" is just that and will eventually try slapping them away like he normally does. Especially in introductions to fights.

"Goku dodge smaller ki blast more than the big ones."

Opponents use smaller ki blasts more than big ones. Either way that doesn't take away Goku also slapping away ki blasts in his fights.

"Not with Goku sensing the attack both with his ehanced sense and his sensing ability."

This doesn't mean he can sense the properties of heat vision. Goku has never sensed the properties of a ki attack and known it was dangerous or lethal. It isn't even ki in the first place. DC make the distinction between Chi and Superman's powers.

"If you're not giving me any exemple of him doing so or being told to do so, i don't think it's a receivable argument."

Ok on your own behalf you don't have to receive it but I'm sure others know what I mean.

"No, going intangible isn't and has never been Superman's normal stance, he either try to heat vision, fly away or tank it, all three of those happened hundreds of time compared to the handful where he went intangible."

Again you're not taking into account WHEN Superman does that. Superman doesn't use intangibility in most story-lines because he didn't know how to. End of Post Crisis Superman who is way more experience and so on would definitely use it.

"Superman's information analysis doesn't extend to knowing how strong an attack he has never seen before is."

He gains the "data" of his opponent. Data is defined as "facts and statistics" so it should include power.

 

[Omegas03]

I didn't even think of Goku starting off in Base as a big factor if we take in account that upon sensing Supes power he'll just transform.

And Goku usually tests his opponents with Super Saiyan sooo

 

[DTG499]

Btw, I vote for Superman I think his moveset is better and as others have said he has more ways to win. Goku starting in base doesn't exactly put things in his favor either since whilst it's possible he'll either instantly or very early access his other forms, I feel like in character he's going to test the waters first.

It also wouldn't be in character for Superman to go in for the kill right of the bat either. Superman also would test the waters by seeing what his opponent can take, it's in character for Superman starting off holding back tremendously. Also goku could just sense supes Ki and decide super Saiyan would be a better option to test the waters with, he's done that multiple times before.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Dragomer

Look at your comments and tell me if it's reasonable to quote a comment that quotes a comment that quotes another comment that quotes another comment and claim it's not bad.

Don't quote the whole comment. Delete the inner quotes.

 

[Dragomer]

Freezer's death beam say otherwise, small ki blast were never said to be inherently weaker, Piccolo's makokansappo is smaller than the kamehameha but stronger

Except Goku doesn't normaly do that, i have linked a screenshot where he is dodging the death beam despite being in SSJ, i have no idea where you got that idea and Goku has no assumption to make, he can sense it.

So Goku indeed dodge more than he does anythingt else.

It does, Goku can clearly sense the attack with his ehanced sense and sensing, that's kinda the whole point, hell Goku could instinctively know he needed to dodge Beerus and Vegeta knew Nappa had to dodge the kienzan.

No, on behalf of the wiki, if it's not on the profile and you can't provide scans or statement for it, i don't think it can be accepted as argument.

Superman has faced that kind of attacks a lot during that era and he didn't use intangibility the huge majority of the time so when he use intangibility or not is pretty clear to me.

Any scans showing or proving End of Post Crisis use intangibility more than dodging or tanking ? because all the scans i saw have him do that rather than intangibility, he counter blast more often at the end of post crisis though.

That's not what his profile say, he gain stuff like genetic make up but not what their esoteric powers specificaly do or how strong they are.

 

[DTG499]

@:EmperorRorepme goku would be able to feel the heat of supes HV via enhanced senses and determine "I'm going to die if that hits me". He's done that multiple times before.

 

[AKM sama]

I vote for closing the thread and banning the match

 

[The_Calaca]

Goku can't feel hax, and Ki already emanates heat. He's just sensing a "Ki blast" hotter than the average but overall weaker than him.

 

[Omegas03]

Does heat vision bypass durability?

And Goku ain't still going to stand there and receive it. Either he dodges or counter attacks with his own Ki blast (Scenario that doesn't really end up well for Supes tbh) . Also the fact that the attack is far hotter than the average one.

 

[DTG499]

He's never felt a heat that can match absolute zero. It's not a matter of sensing the Ki or "sensing hax". Just the heat, pretty sure it's going to be way hotter than a Ki blast.

 

[Dragomer]

I vote for closing the thread and banning the match </div>

I'm surprised it stayed open this long TBH.

 

[The_Calaca]

Goku doesn't even know what a "heat that can match AZ" is to begin with. He has no way of knowing that a specific heat would hurt him, especially when the trick comes from the molecule destruction as a side effect rather than the heat.

He just sees a normal eye beam. Whether he dodges or not, he can't sense it's dangerous to his body more than a regular blast.

 

[Dragomer]

Does heat vision bypass durability?
And Goku ain't still going to stand there and receive it. Either he dodges or counter attacks with his own Ki blast. Also the fact that the attack is far hotter than the average one.

Only when Superman use it on a molecular level as far as i know, that's the only reason it's even being discussed since Goku has the AP advantage.

 

[DTG499]

@omegas03 it ignores dura by merit of just how insanely hot it is. He can also focus it down to the molecular level and make it limited matter manipulation. Which is the only way I can see supes wining is with the HV that's too small for goku to see or feel BUT goku might be able to sense it. What goku does next after he senses molecularly sized HV? I do not know, speed is equal and the MHV is still a projectile attack.

 

[Omegas03]

@Calaca

I insist, Goku can still feel there's something wrong in the attack

Even if that weren't the case, Goku isn't the type to just tank an attack so he'll dodge or counter attack.

@Dragomer

Does Superman use it on a molecular level often? I mean he'll def use it if the fight drags but at the start I doubt he'll instantly go for it.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

"Freezer's death beam say otherwise, small ki blast were never said to be inherently weaker, Piccolo's makokansappo is smaller than the kamehameha but stronger"

What does it say? I don't remember anything about it proving Goku senses the molecular damage heat vision can do. Special Beam Cannon is a special attack which I don't class to be in the same bracket as "regular ki blasts".

Except Goku doesn't normaly do that, i have no idea where you got that idea and Goku has no assumption to make, he can sense it.

? You're telling me Goku doesn't parry away ki blasts in various fights throughout the series? Sure he can sense it but not what it can do.

It does, Goku can clearly sense the attack with his ehanced sense and sensing, that's kinda the whole point, hell Goku could instinctively know he needed to dodge Beerus and Vegeta knew Nappa had to dodge the kienzan.

He can sense it, but not it's propeties. Vegeta knowing Nappa had to dodge distructo disk doesn't prove anything. It doesn't have special properties other than being very sharp. It's akin to a kid (Krillin) picking up a knife against an adult (Nappa). Anyway if you still don't agree with this then I will just say Superman's heat vision is not ki so Goku cannot sense it you can't equalise it either because there is already chi in DC.

No, on behalf of the wiki, if it's not on the profile and you can't provide scans or statement for it, i don't think it can be accepted as argument.

Intangibility and Durability Negation are both on the profile. If you don't want to accept Superman could use it in a lethal manner that's fine doesn't mean others won't take into account the argument. So you're not taking it into account on your behalf. Anyway I'll give you the scan that it's based on high-speed just to satisfy you.

Any scans showing or proving End of Post Crisis use intangibility more than dodging or tanking ? because all the scans i saw have him do that rather than intangibility, he counter blast more often at the end of post crisis though.

I haven't got scans of EoPC Superman doing anything but I'm almost certain he doesn't try to counter foreign blasts.

That's not what his profile say, he gain stuff like genetic make up but not what their esoteric powers specificaly do or how strong they are.

It also says he can analyse and make calculations of opponents. The scan on display shows him stating he gather "data". He just gets data on Goku and then he will know what ki blasts do. Also Superman can sense chi and the like anyway iirc.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Superman's AZ isn't what I'm talking about with HV anyway. I mean it's "causing molecular structure to shatter" which Goku cannot sense.

 

[Purgy]

Superman's profile says "Can accurately target things smaller than human beings from orbit", that's ridiculous and requires such precision, I'm having a hard time seeing Goku evade something that precise with speed equal. Also, I could be wrong, but can't Superman continously maintain Heat Vision? It's not just a burst right? Goku has never maintained Kamehameha for any decent amount of time so if they were to clash, Heat Vision would come out on top.