Yet another Goku vs Superman Thread (7-3-0)

[CryoTheMayo]

The lowest is a 50x amp

Supes is less likely to lose against a Goku 10,000,000,000,000x stronger than him, at equal speed, than he is against a Goku 10x WEAKER than him but with a 10,000,000,000,000x speed buff. Supes has a slew of methods to avoid getting hit entirely, but he'd never get a chance if he's punched in the ***** a billion imes before he can think to do it.

The issue is that the only reason Superman has a shot right now is because he has a chance to hit Goku with a hax punch while Goku doesn't one shot him until he goes Super Saiyan. If Goku is Super Saiyan Blue he automatically has the ability to one shot Superman with even something as weak as a Kiai. And since Goku currently is far above Superman in skill (based off their profiles and no scans being provided for Superman's skill feats) that would mean Goku just straight up wins. Goku will land the first blow 9/10 times and it will kill Superman instantly.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Has this ever actually happened for anyone except Frieza.

If we want to call a huge energy dome an "aura".

All over the place in the anime. In the Beerus Saga, shockwaves created just by Goku's basic punches in SSG threatened destroying multiple universe-sized spacetimes. And that is in the manga version as well.

Also I don't see why we would dismiss Freeza's aura killing his soldiers? It's a power feat. It has nothing to do with Freeza's skills or abilities. He let loose his power and they couldn't handle it.

 

[Chariot190]

The issue is that the only reason Superman has a shot right now is because he has a chance to hit Goku with a hax punch while Goku doesn't one shot him until he goes Super Saiyan. If Goku is Super Saiyan Blue he automatically has the ability to one shot Superman with even something as weak as a Kiai. And since Goku currently is far above Superman in skill (based off their profiles and no scans being provided for Superman's skill feats) that would mean Goku just straight up wins. Goku will land the first blow 9/10 times and it will kill Superman instantly.

What? Not really?
Supes could easily just phase his atomic structure through every attack, manipulate his wavelengths, dimensional bullshit, whatever. He has methods to avoid actually being hit as long he can react to the incoming attacks. Goku's strength doesn't change that. But if Goku is like 10,000,000,000x faster, well needless to say Supes won't even get a chance to do anything to circumvent getting blitzed or ohko'd.

Tbh, something we haven't even looked at yet is Supes' super senses, why can't Supes just scan Goku to figure out his strength and then adapt?

 

[Chariot190]

All over the place in the anime. In the Beerus Saga, shockwaves created just by Goku's basic punches in SSG threatened destroying multiple universe-sized spacetimes. And that is in the manga version as well.

Lmao what? A punch isn't his basic bitch aura my brother.

Also I don't see why we would dismiss Freeza's aura killing his soldiers? It's a power feat. It has nothing to do with Freeza's skills or abilities. He let loose his power and they couldn't handle it.

Because it's something only he has ever done, and has more in common with an explosive wave, like Piccolo, Buu or Vegeta uses, than his actual aura.

You said Goku's mere aura could kill him, I asked if anyone but Frieza basically exploding like a nuke, had the aura kill even a basic human before.

Plus, in character so I'd say unless Goku has done so he won't regardless.

 

[Maitreya12]

Since a lot of this discussion has been centered around Goku’s skill vs Superman’s level of skill, I think it’s best if I compile together a lot of Goku’s skill feats here.

Here he’s shown to be able to discern an opponents’ location just by feeling the different flows of the air all while figuring out the perfect counter to said opponent at the same time:

He’s able to perfectly time his attacks so that he’s able to transform right as the moment his attack lands so that he can conserve energy while also dealing a devastating blow. (I know the image is of Vegeta’s feat, but this was originally performed by Goku during his fight with Hit. Vegeta just later enhances the skill which is why Goku was able to recognize it.):

In this instance, Goku is predicting Hit’s movements while he time skips in the future. Hit then counters goku by predicting what Goku’s gonna do to counter him which makes Goku have to predict Hit’s movements even further to stay one step ahead of him:

Goku is an extremely skilled fighter, his whole life centers around martial arts and the poses he does for battle are even actual martial arts poses done IRL. From the feats he has displayed, I think he far out skills Superman’s capabilities. Especially since the version of Goku that we are talking about is one that is vastly inferior in skill to the current Goku at this point as well.

 

[Huesito88]

That's wrong actually if Manga Super Goku was 10x weaker than Superman, he wouldn't be able to hurt Superman at all in any way shape or form as he lacks the hax regardless of stonewalling level of speed.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

What? Not really?
Supes could easily just phase his atomic structure through every attack, manipulate his wavelengths, dimensional bullshit, whatever. He has methods to avoid actually being hit as long he can react to the incoming attacks. Goku's strength doesn't change that. But if Goku is like 10,000,000,000x faster, well needless to say Supes won't even get a chance to do anything to circumvent getting blitzed or ohko'd.

Tbh, something we haven't even looked at yet is Supes' super senses, why can't Supes just scan Goku to figure out his strength and then adapt?

From what I see on Superman's page that feat is done via his superspeed and Goku's punches produce shockwaves that have Interdimensional range so I don't know if he can phase through that. Not to mention things like Buu Saga characters tearing open rifts in spacetime with their raw power. And Goku still has access to speed amps via things like the Afterimage technique.

As for super senses, OP already changed it so Superman is aware of Goku's power ahead of time and it still wasn't really enough. And I don't believe his super senses would really work because God Ki gives Goku resistance to Extrasensory Perception.

Lmao what? A punch isn't his basic bitch aura my brother.

Goku's aura is just his power being released. The shockwaves being generated by his basic punches are just another manifestation of that.

Because it's something only he has ever done, and has more in common with an explosive wave, like Piccolo, Buu or Vegeta uses, than his actual aura.

You might have to do a revision for that? Because I'm pretty sure it's accepted that auras can vaporise much weaker opponents. Just like how anyone scaling to or above Gotenks and Super Buu has been given Space-Time Manipulation and Portal Creation.

You said Goku's mere aura could kill him, I asked if anyone but Frieza basically exploding like a nuke, had the aura kill even a basic human before.

Why would Goku use his aura to kill random humans or his fellow Z-Fighters? That wouldn't work against most of his opponents because killing is either banned (tournaments) or they are too powerful to be harmed by it (scaling to or above him).

Plus, in character so I'd say unless Goku has done so he won't regardless.

Goku exploded Yakon.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

That's wrong actually if Manga Super Goku was 10x weaker than Superman, he wouldn't be able to hurt Superman at all in any way shape or form as he lacks the hax regardless of stonewalling level of speed.

Ki attacks scale above AP. The Kamehameha multiplies Goku's power.

 

[Huesito88]

Ki attacks scale above AP. The Kamehameha multiplies Goku's power.

I don't think it's accepted currently that the Kamehameha multiples his power by concrete "x" amount at whatever his current peak power is at the moment (It might be only for certain individuals keys with showing of this, but everytime I'm pretty sure it not). I think it's currently accepted as unquantifiable greater than his peak which does nothing to change it from Superman still stonewalling it.

 

[Chariot190]

That's wrong actually if Manga Super Goku was 10x weaker than Superman, he wouldn't be able to hurt Superman at all in any way shape or form as he lacks the hax regardless of stonewalling level of speed.

He has pressure points and stuff, but you're taking what I said to much at face value, it was just a number. Imagine I said 3x or something.

From what I see on Superman's page that feat is done via his superspeed

Yeah so? We don't remove abilities from characters' speed equalized. That simply isn't how the wiki works. He can vibrate like The Flash and phase, Goku's speed doesn't matter here because Supes speed, in the context of his verse, enables him to do such a thing, it's an ability he has and one Goku can't do much about.

and Goku's punches produce shockwaves that have Interdimensional range so I don't know if he can phase through that.

That one is weird because that's more breaching a time-space barrier.

Not to mention things like Buu Saga characters tearing open rifts in spacetime with their raw power.

That's fine but, why's that matter exactly?

And Goku still has access to speed amps via things like the Afterimage technique.

Same issues applies, you aren't allowed to blitz a character in a match in speed equal, if the character is normal faster than you would be with said amp.

As for super senses, OP already changed it so Superman is aware of Goku's power ahead of time and it still wasn't really enough. And I don't believe his super senses would really work because God Ki gives Goku resistance to Extrasensory Perception.

Supes senses like scanning his atomic biding, physiology, a bunch of shit.
And what? If Supes is aware, why wouldn't he just phase through everything or just time travel back in time and beat him as a kid? or one of the million other options he has and is smart enough and willing to do?

You might have to do a revision for that? Because I'm pretty sure it's accepted that auras can vaporise much weaker opponents.

I don't because that literally never happened, ever? We accept Aura pushing mf's away tho like Gku struggling to get close to Jiren, but in that same vain we also didn't accept Jren having some wacky Aura AP via his heat and it was actively rejected.
Besides Freeza, name ONE character, who powered up, and nuked everything around them in an energy dome. At that point, that isn't "aura", that's a huge ass energy burst like an explosive wave. When it comes to basic aura, not even Freeza's does that.

Just like how anyone scaling to or above Gotenks and Super Buu has been given Space-Time Manipulation and Portal Creation.'

Completely different, that only applies if they actively use that type of power for that specific purposes even then, we don't just accept "yeah every attack no matter what above that display of power has that property" rather "anyone above that display f power could replicate such a thing", the characters still have to actually DO the thing in question. No different here.

Why would Goku use his aura to kill random humans or his fellow Z-Fighters? That wouldn't work against most of his opponents because killing is either banned (tournaments) or they are too powerful to be harmed by it (scaling to or above him).

Why didn't any of the Z Fighters do that to Freeza's goons? Trunks with androids? There's been many, many, cases of characters above Namek 4th form Freeza having col aura, wanting to kill dudes, and then not doing that. The answer is because you're conflating a huge burst of energy that is't at all the same as an aura, with the col flashy lights and energy they emit.
And I hope to God you aren't going to argue GOKU is gonna be willing here? If anything he wouldn't do a thing to Supes, would sandbag, and get himself incapacitated because he's dumb as all hell and is an active weakness up to the ToP. He lets his guard down constantly, and he loves fighting too, if Goku randomly encountered some Multi lv friendly dude, he absolutely isn't going to try killing him, that'd be such a waste, what if he becomes stronger? Gku in character at best, would try and incap Supes after the fight drags on awhile, he's never going to aim to kill a dude who isnt trying to kill either.

Goku exploded Yakon.

Not with basic aura, he like focused that shit and pumped him full of it till he literally exploded from within because he eats energy. I am asking you, I've read DB, I do not recall even once, any at all, of the basic whispy aura killing ANYTHING by just standing there.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Thread too long, what are da arguments

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Vote tally:
Superman: Scathan_The_Celestial, Abu2411, FireSwordHero, Robo (4)
Goku: Sir_Marvulous, CryoTheMayo, XxZetsuxX, noninho, C2_of_Omegon, Kroneii1, Cass5375 (7)

I don't know if I'm missing anyone but we should currently be in Grace.

I don't think it's accepted currently that the Kamehameha multiples his power by concrete "x" amount at whatever his current peak power is at the moment (It might be only for certain individuals keys with showing of this, but everytime I'm pretty sure it not). I think it's currently accepted as unquantifiable greater than his peak which does nothing to change it from Superman still stonewalling it.

I suppose but it inherently means that even if Goku's power was 1/10th of Superman his attacks would still be treated as greater than 1/10th. I don't think a 10x difference would even let you totally wall attacks anyways but maybe I'm wrong.

Yeah so? We don't remove abilities from characters' speed equalized. That simply isn't how the wiki works. He can vibrate like The Flash and phase, Goku's speed doesn't matter here because Supes speed, in the context of his verse, enables him to do such a thing, it's an ability he has and one Goku can't do much about.

I'm saying that ability is dependent on Superman using his speed. Meaning how quickly he can do it is likely equalised to Goku's own speed. So in my head that means Goku could feasibly hit him before Superman can turn intangible. Like Superman can't just instantly phase.

That one is weird because that's more breaching a time-space barrier.

If Superman phases through molecules and Goku's shockwaves phase through dimensions, would Superman be able to avoid it? I doubt it.

That's fine but, why's that matter exactly?

Because I doubt Superman can phase through spacetime destruction.

Same issues applies, you aren't allowed to blitz a character in a match in speed equal, if the character is normal faster than you would be with said amp.

I don't even understand what you are trying to say here. Goku's speed amp is an aspect of a technique he knows. Are Teleportation techniques suddenly not allowed in speed equalised matches because they give an inherent speed advantage?

Supes senses like scanning his atomic biding, physiology, a bunch of shit.

None of that helps him sense Goku's Ki.

And what? If Supes is aware, why wouldn't he just phase through everything or just time travel back in time and beat him as a kid? or one of the million other options he has and is smart enough and willing to do?

Proof that he can phase through 'everything' and would time travel to murder a child instead of attempting another option? Didn't know Superman killed kids out of convenience.

I don't because that literally never happened, ever? We accept Aura pushing mf's away tho like Gku struggling to get close to Jiren, but in that same vain we also didn't accept Jren having some wacky Aura AP via his heat and it was actively rejected.

I don't know where you are looking but it's literally a power-based feat.

Besides Freeza, name ONE character, who powered up, and nuked everything around them in an energy dome. At that point, that isn't "aura", that's a huge ass energy burst like an explosive wave. When it comes to basic aura, not even Freeza's does that.

Goku also exploded a pocket dimension in the anime by powering up. Vegeta destroys the Time Chamber by powering up in both the anime and manga.

Completely different, that only applies if they actively use that type of power for that specific purposes even then, we don't just accept "yeah every attack no matter what above that display of power has that property" rather "anyone above that display f power could replicate such a thing", the characters still have to actually DO the thing in question. No different here.

No it isn't. Goku has Spacetime Manipulation and Portal Creation for scaling above characters who can do that via raw power. The same thing applies with Freeza powering up and it killing his soldiers.

Why didn't any of the Z Fighters do that to Freeza's goons? Trunks with androids? There's been many, many, cases of characters above Namek 4th form Freeza having col aura, wanting to kill dudes, and then not doing that. The answer is because you're conflating a huge burst of energy that is't at all the same as an aura, with the col flashy lights and energy they emit.

Freeza literally says they are holding back from killing because they are 'soft-hearted', particularly Gohan. It's part of why he jumps in the fight. Piccolo in the USS even hesitates to finish off the last member of a universe and Freeza mocks him for it while Goku has no such issues. There are also other issues like that, like fighters such as Roshi and Jaco being present. Who they wouldn't want caught in the crossfire of their power.

And I hope to God you aren't going to argue GOKU is gonna be willing here? If anything he wouldn't do a thing to Supes, would sandbag, and get himself incapacitated because he's dumb as all hell and is an active weakness up to the ToP. He lets his guard down constantly, and he loves fighting too, if Goku randomly encountered some Multi lv friendly dude, he absolutely isn't going to try killing him, that'd be such a waste, what if he becomes stronger? Gku in character at best, would try and incap Supes after the fight drags on awhile, he's never going to aim to kill a dude who isnt trying to kill either.

Everything you are saying here is frankly nonsense. I already broke this down via the Goku vs Frost fight. Go look at that. And how many times do we need to say 'Yakon' before you realise Goku is willing to explode people if he feels like it?

Superman isn't anywhere near SSB Goku's power and he knows it. Superman also hasn't had any significant skill proven in this thread. Goku also has no knowledge of his hax so that's the one thing Superman has that could make Goku even slightly curious in him. So why would Goku 'love fighting' him?

Also 'some Multi lv friendly dude'? Uh dude like every other person in DBS is 2-C. This isn't really too special. If he wasn't going nutty over Botamo and Frost he isn't going to care for Superman.

Not with basic aura, he like focused that shit and pumped him full of it till he literally exploded from within because he eats energy. I am asking you, I've read DB, I do not recall even once, any at all, of the basic whispy aura killing ANYTHING by just standing there.

Okay. I'm getting tired of this train of thought so think what you will. You can't disprove the idea that Goku can defeat Superman with a simple Kiai, given the huge AP difference and Goku doing that several times throughout the series.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Thread too long, what are da arguments

Speed Equalised.
Goku starts in Base but can go up to Blue.
Superman has knowledge of Goku's power.

Superman's primary win con is that he can Deconstruct or BFR Goku if he lands a punch on him. Goku's win con is just going Super Saiyan and then one shotting.

Superman's profile has no notable skill feats and no one has provided any scaling for Superman's skill whereas Goku already surpassed a master of every martial arts on Earth as a child. So Goku is more likely to avoid Superman's blows and go Super Saiyan before Superman can land a punch. I also demonstrated evidence that Goku tends to go Super Saiyan quickly and has no issues statwalling opponents.

For Superman the current arguments being formulated are that he could utilise Intangibility and there is some possibility he could time travel to kill Goku as a child. And my response to that is that Goku has extradimensional-range shockwaves and spacetime manipulation via power and it seems insanely OOC for Superman to time travel and murder a child.

Might be a bit one-sided of a summary but I haven't really seen too many arguments for Superman that feel solid.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Uh...actually I'm pretty sure C2_of_Omegon was the last vote and it put us in grace...over 24 hours ago.

Doesn't that mean Goku won and this thread is over?

 

[MeiouHades]

I’m voting Goku

 

[Excellence616]

Am voting Superman

 

[Chariot190]

I'm saying that ability is dependent on Superman using his speed. Meaning how quickly he can do it is likely equalised to Goku's own speed. So in my head that means Goku could feasibly hit him before Superman can turn intangible. Like Superman can't just instantly phase.

It's instant thou? He just vibrates? It's about as quick as you flexing.

If Superman phases through molecules and Goku's shockwaves phase through dimensions, would Superman be able to avoid it? I doubt it.

Yeah? He phases his atoms THROUGH shit, Goku ain't hitting him if he does so.

Because I doubt Superman can phase through spacetime destruction.

Why not? Especially because isn't going to be blowing up the ******* universe? Goku isn't hitting someone with intangibility, hell just look Hit, he can't even properly deal with Hit's intagibility without actually attacking Hit in the dimension that he resides within, and that isn't even like Supes intangibility to begin with, he might be able to take him out if he opts to destroy all of reality, but he won't, at all.

I don't even understand what you are trying to say here. Goku's speed amp is an aspect of a technique he knows. Are Teleportation techniques suddenly not allowed in speed equalised matches because they give an inherent speed advantage?

Teleportation is teleportation. It's always instant. Afterimagery? Yeah if it's a speed amp, that lets him blitz a dude he couldn't without it, every type of speed amp leading to a win in speed equal when it would normally not put them above the foe isn't allowed, or well it is, but it can't be added, more F&Ga type stuff.

None of that helps him sense Goku's Ki.

No, but it would enable him to sense the effect it has on his body. also pretty sure supes can sense chi.

Proof that he can phase through 'everything' and would time travel to murder a child instead of attempting another option? Didn't know Superman killed kids out of convenience.

What? The burden of proof is on you to show that Goku can hit someone who can just phase through everything while still within the same dimensional tiering, they're both 2-C brother. Superman can phase, Goku can't hit those types of intangibles, ergo, he can't hit Superman. I don't have do a thing here.

And what? I didn't say kill, I said BEAT. Supes has no problems using his wacky hax to incapacitate or prevent problems. Of course he wouldn't KILL Goku, he wouldn't no matter what happened, beating the shit ut of him, preventing the fight from happening at all, or anything inbetween though? Yeah, he would. Don't strawman.

I don't know where you are looking but it's literally a power-based feat.

Threads long since before joined? Anyway, we don't.

Goku also exploded a pocket dimension in the anime by powering up. Vegeta destroys the Time Chamber by powering up in both the anime and manga.

Yeah so? Where's them killing people by just standing there? Unleashing a burst of ki while powering up isn't the aura just killing shit.

No it isn't. Goku has Spacetime Manipulation and Portal Creation for scaling above characters who can do that via raw power. The same thing applies with Freeza powering up and it killing his soldiers.

Goku has access to hose, he doesn't have them passively. Every time Goku throws a punch 0.00001% above Gotenk's vice shout, he doesn't rip through dimensions, we just accept he has access to that ability.
Of course, Goku could unleash a burst of ki from his body and blow shit up like Freeza, but he has to actually do that, it isn't some passive trait that gets added to him the moment he exceeds Frieza's ki, as evidenced by the fact literally nobody past Frieza turning final form on Namek, and Frieza again in Super did it. It's more akin to an explosive wave, a burst of ki, unleashed when powering up. That is not the aura, let's not pretend it is.

Freeza literally says they are holding back from killing because they are 'soft-hearted', particularly Gohan. It's part of why he jumps in the fight. Piccolo in the USS even hesitates to finish off the last member of a universe and Freeza mocks him for it while Goku has no such issues. There are also other issues like that, like fighters such as Roshi and Jaco being present. Who they wouldn't want caught in the crossfire of their power.

Tien blowing mf's into the water knocking them out... Sure.
Regardless, what do I need to go through all of DBZ to point out everytime a stronger character fought a weaker one with killing intent, and didn't vape them with an aura? You've read it, you know there's ample times let's not pretend. And no, Goku isn't some bloodlusted murderer, get off that.

Everything you are saying here is frankly nonsense. I already broke this down via the Goku vs Frost fight. Go look at that. And how many times do we need to say 'Yakon' before you realise Goku is willing to explode people if he feels like it?

Ever think maybe I disagree?
As many times as you want, Yakon, is not the same as Superman. Maybe if yu just ignore heaps of context. And even then, that still isn' the same, Yakon was actively eating his energy, Goku, to get around that, overfed him, that killed him. Taking that and extrapolating it "yeah Goku uses his energy aura and just vaporizes his foes" is laughable at best, borderline lying at worst.

Also 'some Multi lv friendly dude'? Uh dude like every other person in DBS is 2-C. This isn't really too special. If he wasn't going nutty over Botamo and Frost he isn't going to care for Superman.

This is RoF Goku, he knows like, 3 2-C dudes at this point. And **** yeah he would, a completely friendly, non-evil, strong dude wth a bunch of seemingly unique abilities outside of some tourney match? This would be like if Goku walked down the street and found someone who was 4-C, he'd be hyped even though he'd curb him. Goku doesn't just think about in the moment, the potential they hold to also affects his decisions.

Okay. I'm getting tired of this train of thought so think what you will. You can't disprove the idea that Goku can defeat Superman with a simple Kiai, given the huge AP difference and Goku doing that several times throughout the series.

Hey, you said aura, a kiai sure, but the basic aura? That doesn't even kill 4-C's? Nah lad.
Also Goku literally not once ever did that, don't try and paint Yakon off as anything but a false equivalence ignoring the context around what was happening.

And my response to that is that Goku has extradimensional-range shockwaves and spacetime manipulation via power and it seems insanely OOC for Superman to time travel and murder a child.

Only matters if Supes dimension dips 2-3 dimensions away, and only if Goku aims for him. The rest don't help against his flash-esque phasing.
The last one is just you misinterpreting it somehow.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

It's instant thou? He just vibrates? It's about as quick as you flexing.

And they are fighting at equalised speed with Goku being able to boost his speed via Afterimage.

Yeah? He phases his atoms THROUGH shit, Goku ain't hitting him if he does so.

Can he phase through spacetime destruction? Or extradimensional attacks? Has he ever shown he can do that?

Why not? Especially because isn't going to be blowing up the ***** universe? Goku isn't hitting someone with intangibility, hell just look Hit, he can't even properly deal with Hit's intagibility without actually attacking Hit in the dimension that he resides within, and that isn't even like Supes intangibility to begin with, he might be able to take him out if he opts to destroy all of reality, but he won't, at all.

Shockwaves don't instantly destroy the macrocosm. Also Hit doesn't have Intangibility in the manga and in the anime Goku's aura reaches into his pocket dimension and destroys it.

There is zero need for Goku to 'destroy all reality'. His target is right there. His shockwaves or spacetime destruction just needs to influence him. We already saw in the Buu Saga that this can be localised and the Beerus Saga shows the shockwaves won't destroy the macrocosm instantly, it takes a few of them.

Teleportation is teleportation. It's always instant. Afterimagery? Yeah if it's a speed amp, that lets him blitz a dude he couldn't without it, every type of speed amp leading to a win in speed equal when it would normally not put them above the foe isn't allowed, or well it is, but it can't be added, more F&Ga type stuff.

Actually Teleportation is not always instant. I thought that too but infinite speed DB got shot down partially because Instant Transmission isn't considered so instant. (As in the act of teleporting, not the focusing part of it).

No, but it would enable him to sense the effect it has on his body. also pretty sure supes can sense chi.

'pretty sure' means nothing to me. Provide scans.

What? The burden of proof is on you to show that Goku can hit someone who can just phase through everything while still within the same dimensional tiering, they're both 2-C brother. Superman can phase, Goku can't hit those types of intangibles, ergo, he can't hit Superman. I don't have do a thing here.

No? His profile already shows he can affect other dimensions with his shockwaves and that he can tear open Spacetime. Demonstrate to me how Superman's Intangibility would enable him to phase through that.

And what? I didn't say kill, I said BEAT. Supes has no problems using his wacky hax to incapacitate or prevent problems. Of course he wouldn't KILL Goku, he wouldn't no matter what happened, beating the shit ut of him, preventing the fight from happening at all, or anything inbetween though? Yeah, he would. Don't strawman.

So how is Superman going to defeat Goku by temporarily incapacitating his younger self? And how is Superman going to be allowed to even do this by Goku?

Yeah so? Where's them killing people by just standing there? Unleashing a burst of ki while powering up isn't the aura just killing shit.

It is going to kill them if the AP difference is 12.5 million times. If you can't grasp this concept then there's no reason to continue this train of thought. Other people will interpret it and decide.

Goku has access to hose, he doesn't have them passively. Every time Goku throws a punch 0.00001% above Gotenk's vice shout, he doesn't rip through dimensions, we just accept he has access to that ability.

And you think Goku won't even consider doing that when he notices he can't hit Superman? Out of curiosity, is there any evidence that Superman can attack Goku while intangible? His profile doesn't seem to indicate that.

Of course, Goku could unleash a burst of ki from his body and blow shit up like Freeza, but he has to actually do that, it isn't some passive trait that gets added to him the moment he exceeds Frieza's ki, as evidenced by the fact literally nobody past Frieza turning final form on Namek, and Frieza again in Super did it. It's more akin to an explosive wave, a burst of ki, unleashed when powering up. That is not the aura, let's not pretend it is.

Okay? I don't see your point? You're saying Goku can do it via powering up which is what I have been saying. He has an AoE field that won't let Superman reach him because it will kill him if he powers up. And he may do that if he notices he can't hit Superman.

Tien blowing mf's into the water knocking them out... Sure.

Now multiply that by 12,500,000x.

Regardless, what do I need to go through all of DBZ to point out everytime a stronger character fought a weaker one with killing intent, and didn't vape them with an aura? You've read it, you know there's ample times let's not pretend. And no, Goku isn't some bloodlusted murderer, get off that.

I guarantee I can explain every single example. Nor has anyone ever said Goku is a 'bloodlusted murderer'. We're saying he has shown he is willing to use his power to stomp Superman into the ground. If he's shown a willingness to just explode a guy he's willing to slap Superman to the ground.

Ever think maybe I disagree?
As many times as you want, Yakon, is not the same as Superman. Maybe if yu just ignore heaps of context. And even then, that still isn' the same, Yakon was actively eating his energy, Goku, to get around that, overfed him, that killed him. Taking that and extrapolating it "yeah Goku uses his energy aura and just vaporizes his foes" is laughable at best, borderline lying at worst.

Goku has no idea who the hell Superman is and Goku knew full well what was happening to Yakon.

This is RoF Goku, he knows like, 3 2-C dudes at this point. And ***** yeah he would, a completely friendly, non-evil, strong dude wth a bunch of seemingly unique abilities outside of some tourney match? This would be like if Goku walked down the street and found someone who was 4-C, he'd be hyped even though he'd curb him. Goku doesn't just think about in the moment, the potential they hold to also affects his decisions.

RoF Goku fought Beerus, Whis, Vegeta and Freeza at this point. And shortly after RoF he showed no real amazement over Botamo, Frost, Magetta and Cabba being 2-C. He isn't going to care in the slightest. Even Piccolo would scale to 2-C shortly after RoF via fighting Frost.

Hey, you said aura, a kiai sure, but the basic aura? That doesn't even kill 4-C's? Nah lad.

Now this is just being silly. Those Kiais aren't from someone 12,500,000x more powerful than them. And Goku has shown he will use them to instantly finish fights if his opponents don't interest him. It's not a single hit either, it's multiple currents of air slamming into his opponent near-instantly and its invisible.

Also Goku literally not once ever did that, don't try and paint Yakon off as anything but a false equivalence ignoring the context around what was happening.

Uh...no? I'm not ignoring a literal example of Goku killing someone in the Buu Saga. Why are you so hellbent on him being this pacifist who never kills?

Only matters if Supes dimension dips 2-3 dimensions away, and only if Goku aims for him. The rest don't help against his flash-esque phasing.
The last one is just you misinterpreting it somehow.

Goku doesn't have to 'aim' for Superman because those shockwaves are AoE and traverse the entire macrocosm of his verse in seconds. And Superman isn't going to be able to fly '2-3 dimensions away' or avoid the shockwaves because Goku is 12,500,000x stronger, can teleport and is speed equalised.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

To iterate, I'm fairly certain we entered grace over 24 hours ago and it already ended before anyone else voted. So unless someone can contradict my vote tally this thread should already be concluded.

EDIT: I've been steadily growing more sick over the past few hours so I'm going to disengage for a while. Might be gone a day or two if it gets any worse. Figured I should let the people I'm debating know.

If someone else can pick up my slack that'd be great. Thank you.

 

[Chariot190]

And they are fighting at equalised speed with Goku being able to boost his speed via Afterimage.

There you go, right there. Match wouldn't be allowed. You just argued that Goku prevents something purely through a speed amp that would otherwise be totally useless.

Anyway, Supes knows how strong he is and would do it right away so not much of an issue.

Can he phase through spacetime destruction? Or extradimensional attacks? Has he ever shown he can do that?

Probably? The Flash sure as shit has at some point or another, and it's the same technique.
Regardless no, nice try, Goku needs to prove he can hit someone whose entire atomic structure is untouchable. Absolutely isn't on me here to prove anything.

Shockwaves don't instantly destroy the macrocosm.

Dude. Goku isn't going to be destroying the planet let alone the universe. I'm not humoring this.

Also Hit doesn't have Intangibility in the manga

Oh, so Goku has absolutely no experience with this type of stuff then, even worse. Using the anime Hit as an example though, Goku tried blocking some of the intangible moves, that wouldn't work, Supes would just phase through his blocking and deflecting. Goku could obviously adapt afterward, but if he ****** up once to learn that, he already lost.

and in the anime Goku's aura reaches into his pocket dimension and destroys it.

Ok? How's that gonna affect Supes' atomic phasing. Also, wasn't Goku pulled INTO that dimension when he did that?

There is zero need for Goku to 'destroy all reality'. His target is right there. His shockwaves or spacetime destruction just needs to influence him.

Yeah there is? He isn't hitting Supes when he phases like The Flash. His spacetime and shockwaves won't be doing anything because they don't have the feats to. We're talking about the dude who couldn't even kill a ghost, same applies here, Goku actually needs feats of affecting Noncorporality and Intangibility. Do you see "Non-Physical Interaction" on his profile in regards to that?

We already saw in the Buu Saga that this can be localized and the Beerus Saga shows the shockwaves won't destroy the macrocosm instantly, it takes a few of them.

Yeah, they can be localized, but why would he do that? Goku doesn't even have experience with this in the manga, how would he even know? He almost never uses this, and even if he did, Supes has multiple methods of phasing, any one works really.
Drop the last bit, Goku will never go that far.

And you think Goku won't even consider doing that when he notices he can't hit Superman? Out of curiosity, is there any evidence that Superman can attack Goku while intangible? His profile doesn't seem to indicate that.

How would he? He'd have already been haxed by Supes, Supes won't sit around, he'd lead with whatever win condition he knows would work right away. All Supes needs to do is last like 1 second to do any of his hax, he knows how strong Goku, he's beyond smart enough.

And yeah, it's just like The Flash, they just solidify the relevant atoms on contact, though the prime example I can think of is actually a case where it ***** them over is when Batman notices the Reverse Flash standing on solid ground despite phasing, deducing the bottom atoms of his feet aren't phased, and thus stabs him there. Not at all an issue here though, Supes can fly, only needs to solidify the surface atoms of his fist on impact should he use contact-based hax, or can avoid that entirely and use long range hax, hax that doesn't require contact, or whatever.

Now multiply that by 12,500,000x.

Tien is above 12,500,000x stronger than Frieza goons brother. It's like High 4-C or something, against what, 5-Cs? Maybe 5-Bs?

I guarantee I can explain every single example.

Yeah "they arent killing just because so sometimes they dont".

Nor has anyone ever said Goku is a 'bloodlusted murderer'. We're saying he has shown he is willing to use his power to stomp Superman into the ground.

You've basically done nothing but say that for a few posts now.

If he's shown a willingness to just explode a guy he's willing to slap Superman to the ground.

Yes, because being told "hey this dude is ultra evil, he's actively trying to kill you and we cant **** around or the world will be destroyed", and said dude is also an asshole, is def the same.

Goku has no idea who the hell Superman is and Goku knew full well what was happening to Yakon.

Yeah? Except Goku can sense killing intent and malice last I checked. Supes obviously isn't going to be actively trying to kill, something Goku can pick up. You're arguing Goku would basically kill any stranger he fights just because, Goku might be an asshole, but he isn't Vegeta, who also wouldn't do that.

RoF Goku fought Beerus, Whis, Vegeta and Freeza at this point. And shortly after RoF he showed no real amazement over Botamo, Frost, Magetta and Cabba being 2-C. He isn't going to care in the slightest. Even Piccolo would scale to 2-C shortly after RoF via fighting Frost.

4 dudes. Botamo was a hack, Frost he actually did. Didn't fight Magetta, Cabba I'd wager he did. This is all ignoring the tournament setting, and the numerous times AFTER this he showed interest in characters. I'm sure Goku takes interest in Piccolo tbh, just not to the extent of the likes of Broly or Vegeta.

Now this is just being silly. Those Kiais aren't from someone 12,500,000x more powerful than them. And Goku has shown he will use them to instantly finish fights if his opponents don't interest him. It's not a single hit either, it's multiple currents of air slamming into his opponent near-instantly and its invisible.

Backpedaling. You said aura, kiai isn't aura.
Also them being invisible doesn't matter, Supes' senses are unparalleled, he'd know they're coming simply from displacement of whatever.

Uh...no? I'm not ignoring a literal example of Goku killing someone in the Buu Saga. Why are you so hellbent on him being this pacifist who never kills?

Oh he kills, never just because tho. Goku does not, without given reason, kill, just because, He simply doesn't. Supes isn't going to give him any reason, given Supes isn't trying to kill him either.

Goku doesn't have to 'aim' for Superman because those shockwaves are AoE and traverse the entire macrocosm of his verse in seconds.

Goku doesn't even use AOE like that normally what the hell? In fact he was actively trying to prevent that in that very instant. Goku's shockwaves aren't even planetary normally, he focuses that shit as to not cause unneeded destruction.

And Superman isn't going to be able to fly '2-3 dimensions away' or avoid the shockwaves because Goku is 12,500,000x stronger, can teleport and is speed equalised.

Speed equal would let him actually, he'd be moving at the same speed. Unless Goku amped, but, ya know, blitzing a dude who's above you normally via amps isn't allowed.
Teleportation has limits, it's 2-C.
Speed equalized, again, using amps to outspeed the normally faster character isnt allowed.

To iterate, I'm fairly certain we entered grace over 24 hours ago and it already ended before anyone else voted. So unless someone can contradict my vote tally this thread should already be concluded.

Grace needs a difference of 3 votes, and no new information must be at play.


Anyway, if Supes knows how strong Goku is, absolutely nothing prevents phasing, from there he can do whatever and he's smart enough to figure out whatever niche hax he has that would get him a win, even if it's roundabout.

 

[FireSwordHero]

Well, I suppose I should provide a skill scaling for Pre-Crisis Superman, though at the moment it isnt too complex since there's little information right now.

So from what I understand, while martial arts isnt exactly Superman's bread and butter, he has recieved some help/tips from Batman, who is considered to be one of the greatest martial artists in DC, and he has been explicitly stated to know Judo and Boxing, the latter of which is aided by the fact that he canonically recived training from both Larry Trent, a former heavyweight world champion, and Muhammad Ali (that was a thing). Also apparently he has also trained/sparred with Wonder-Woman according to some respect thread, but I haven't found any scans on that so I can't say for sure. The DC database also says that Superman also knows Wing Chun, Karate, Wrestling and Pressure Point Manipualation, as well as Swordplay, and while they dont include scans they do include links to the respective issues in which Superman demonstrates that.

In terms of actually using his powers however, Superman's roughly similar to Goku when it comes to experience, and perhaps even greater depending on how you look at it. Superman began using his powers as early as 8 years old when he first became Superboy till around the Crisis where he last appeared. He has fought a variety of foes, ranging from former military commanders of Kypton such as Dur-Zod, to physical gods such as Darkseid, to hyperintelligent individuals such as Lex Luthor and Braniac. So while Superman isn't a martial arts master like Goku is, he's still comparable in both combat experience and knowing how to use his own abilities.

 

[Robo432343]

wait wtf lmao
if supes has knowledge on gokus power he can time travel and beat, not kill goku as a kid

 

[Cass5373]

From what I see Superman has resistance to intangibility and not intangibility itself. His deconstruction has not been proven to be used on living beings, with that logic Goku should also be able to use his deconstruction as an attack and Superman has no resistance to said ability. The only way Superman could have a win in a timely manner would be with the BFR but he could not reach Goku due to his extreme superiority in terms of analyzing, predicting, copying the martial techniques of his opponents.

 

[Robo432343]

The only way Superman could have a win in a timely manner would be with the BFR but he could not reach Goku due to his extreme superiority in terms of analyzing, predicting, copying the martial techniques of his opponents.

Superman time travels and beats goku as a kid

 

[Robo432343]

From what I see Superman has resistance to intangibility and not intangibility itself.

Uh u might want to reword this

 

[Spilxson2]

wait wtf lmao
if supes has knowledge on gokus power he can time travel and beat, not kill goku as a kid

He doesn't, but I was considering giving both prior knowledge of each other's power and abilities so that Goku could still one shot Superman, but Superman would also know how strong Goku is and immediately go for hax so that they'd both have win conditions

 

[Cass5373]

Superman viaja en el tiempo y vence a Goku cuando era niño.

I don't see his ability working that way...
I also don't see Superman in character going and murdering an infant just because he has to fight his future self.

 

[Cass5373]

Uh u might want to reword this

I'm trying to say that Superman can attack intangible beings by being too dense for them to pass through his matter.

 

[Chariot190]

I don't see his ability working that way...
I also don't see Superman in character going and murdering an infant just because he has to fight his future self.

What? Why do you assume he has to kill instead of incap? He could literally go back in time and just use super discussion to convince him to never fight again.

I'm trying to say that Superman can attack intangible beings by being too dense for them to pass through his matter.

That's also true, he can still do the funny flash stuff though too. Like, this is ACTUALLY on the profile for once, a tame example but all the same it's there.

 

[Cass5373]

That's also true, he can still do the funny flash stuff though too. Like, this is ACTUALLY on the profile for once, a tame example but all the same it's there.

Yes, what I am specifically referring to is that it is a resistance but not becoming intangible or at least that is what I see in your profile.

 

[Chariot190]

What? He literally phases through a ball's molecules? Like, it's right on the profile lad.

 

[Cass5373]

What? He literally phases through a ball's molecules? Like, it's right on the profile lad.

Yes, you are right, my mistake.

 

[DivineAura44]

Superman time travels and beats goku as a kid

Doesn't work, time traveling would only lead to him meeting an alternate timeline Goku, not the once he's facing.

 

[Chariot190]

Doesn't work, time traveling would only lead to him meeting an alternate timeline Goku, not the once he's facing.

It would actually, Superman's time travel =/= Trunks.

We don't change how characters abilities function just because a different verse has a different cosmology or variants of such things in it.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Voting Goku FRA

 

[AwkguyDB]

Goku FRA

 

[MusicRelaxing]

Goku FRA.

 

[Spilxson2]

That's grace apparently

 

[Chariot190]

Intangibility tho...

 

[Spilxson2]

Should I give both prior knowledge? I could probably still keep the votes the same