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The most controversial debate is up here again... Goku vs. Supes.
- Thread starter Omegas03
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Dragon Ball AF by Toyble, it was Toyotaro's pen name back when he was a fan artist IIRC, with Xicor, the second son of Goku (with Goten being rectonned as his third kid) who fought Gohan in SSJ5 and they ressurected Broly to make some weird ritual or something before Xicor broke out of the Z sword seal and Paikuhan made him (Broly, not Xicor) nice overtime or something before Roshi, who was telling the story to Goku and Vegeta Jr just died during the night after leaving them on a cliff hanger, ending the fanmanga on that.XSOULOFCINDERX said:
It was weird and goofy as hell.
Might be out of subject but i feel it's important to remind people of the wild stuff Toyotaro put in his story before since we're talking about the DBS Manga.
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Ok, what's the current reasonings for Superman winning? I read through the thread but stuff seemed to shift gears at some point and I've lost track.
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^which is stupid considering Goku will transform instantly to whatever form he needs once he sensed Superman's power. Even AoE HV at space seems really Out of character for Superman without counting what Goku can do to counter it.
The points made for Superman just don't convince me tbh.
The points made for Superman just don't convince me tbh.
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That's one of the point that were brough up against that argument, i don't think i saw anyone counter argue that response though.Nitro90 said:
Also distance wouldn't even be an advantage for Superman since Goku has the superior range going by their profiles (planetary range vs universal range.)
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And after Superman realises that Goku instantly overpowers his Heat Vision, he goes intangible and probably starts using his best hax to incap Goku.
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Again Goku can simply dodge him even if he's intangible. Please don't forget that speed is equalized. If anything it's Goku who has the speed advantage because he can teleport.PapiSavitar5025 said:
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No, I explained why and my view on it here.AKM sama said:
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I will try to be as objective as I can.
AOE Heat Vision from Space is...ridiculous. Goku will never allow Superman to simply leave and his Instant Transmission means that he can be instantly be at Superman's side any time and suprise him. There's no lag time with Instant Transmission, making it a legitimate suprise move almost every time it's used. Besides, Superman doesn't really pull sniper manuvers of that sort.
Now, for the dura-neg and AOE heat vision. The dura-neg is legitmately dangerous to Goku and could severly injure and kill him if allowed to connect. Problem is actually connecting. Heat Vision is just an energy blast with some special properties. Goku can simply dodge it, counter with his own blasts or raise a ki barrier to block. Goku's Ki-sensing also means the heat vision coming, giving him earlier warnings.
The AOE heat vision if countered the same way as the dura-neg. Goku can just use IT to get out of the way or fire a big enough ki blast to creater a buffer between him and the heat vision. Also, fun fact: Superman using his heat vision on such scales is actually draining on his solar reserves. He can't spam AOE all day or even for very long. Also, before someone points it out, while Superman does have infinite stamina, that's only as long as his solar reserves hold out. If he expends faster than he can be recharged, like with an intense AOE heat vision, he can be left drained and tired.
That said, Superman has other aces in his corner. His intangibility and his freeze breath. Intagibility is great for defense but it renders Superman inable to actually physically interact with Goku, meaning he'll have to time when he does it if he wishes to retaliate quickly. As for the freeze breath, it could win if he immediately goes full throttle and AZ's Goku. But he has to resort to that level and still catch Goku with it.
Now, Goku's main strengths are his sheer skill as a martial artist with an aresenal of powers and skills built for fighting. He has trained under several different masters over the span of a few decades. This is ontop of fighting his entire life, dedicating his life to fighting and being of a species basically built to fight. Analytical Prediction and Power Mimicry are born out of Goku's sheer aptitude and skill for combat.
If Goku as a true AP advantage and is allowed to press that he could win with a big enough attack. A scenario that is full possible as he can sense how strong Superman is, while Superman has to experience how powerful and deadly Goku is. That is important as it dictates their mindsets. Something that is highly important here.
Superman, as a characters, ramps up as he needs to. He has no way of knowing just how powerful Goku really is and that leaves potential for him to be blindsided. However, Superman's capabilities mean that this isn't surefire way to truly take him. Unlike Superman, Goku doesn't have that many 'I win' moves. He's really only got one and Superman does have an answer for, though that's not a sure thing either.
Honestly, I see this as incon. Superman has more ways to win but they are offset by the fact that Goku has answers to them. Goku has a way to win based off his better analyzation skills and seemingly power difference, but Superman's intagibility throws a bit of a monkey-wrench into that.
Really, to me, it just boils down to how the match goes. Who responds to what in time, so on and so forth.
AOE Heat Vision from Space is...ridiculous. Goku will never allow Superman to simply leave and his Instant Transmission means that he can be instantly be at Superman's side any time and suprise him. There's no lag time with Instant Transmission, making it a legitimate suprise move almost every time it's used. Besides, Superman doesn't really pull sniper manuvers of that sort.
Now, for the dura-neg and AOE heat vision. The dura-neg is legitmately dangerous to Goku and could severly injure and kill him if allowed to connect. Problem is actually connecting. Heat Vision is just an energy blast with some special properties. Goku can simply dodge it, counter with his own blasts or raise a ki barrier to block. Goku's Ki-sensing also means the heat vision coming, giving him earlier warnings.
The AOE heat vision if countered the same way as the dura-neg. Goku can just use IT to get out of the way or fire a big enough ki blast to creater a buffer between him and the heat vision. Also, fun fact: Superman using his heat vision on such scales is actually draining on his solar reserves. He can't spam AOE all day or even for very long. Also, before someone points it out, while Superman does have infinite stamina, that's only as long as his solar reserves hold out. If he expends faster than he can be recharged, like with an intense AOE heat vision, he can be left drained and tired.
That said, Superman has other aces in his corner. His intangibility and his freeze breath. Intagibility is great for defense but it renders Superman inable to actually physically interact with Goku, meaning he'll have to time when he does it if he wishes to retaliate quickly. As for the freeze breath, it could win if he immediately goes full throttle and AZ's Goku. But he has to resort to that level and still catch Goku with it.
Now, Goku's main strengths are his sheer skill as a martial artist with an aresenal of powers and skills built for fighting. He has trained under several different masters over the span of a few decades. This is ontop of fighting his entire life, dedicating his life to fighting and being of a species basically built to fight. Analytical Prediction and Power Mimicry are born out of Goku's sheer aptitude and skill for combat.
If Goku as a true AP advantage and is allowed to press that he could win with a big enough attack. A scenario that is full possible as he can sense how strong Superman is, while Superman has to experience how powerful and deadly Goku is. That is important as it dictates their mindsets. Something that is highly important here.
Superman, as a characters, ramps up as he needs to. He has no way of knowing just how powerful Goku really is and that leaves potential for him to be blindsided. However, Superman's capabilities mean that this isn't surefire way to truly take him. Unlike Superman, Goku doesn't have that many 'I win' moves. He's really only got one and Superman does have an answer for, though that's not a sure thing either.
Honestly, I see this as incon. Superman has more ways to win but they are offset by the fact that Goku has answers to them. Goku has a way to win based off his better analyzation skills and seemingly power difference, but Superman's intagibility throws a bit of a monkey-wrench into that.
Really, to me, it just boils down to how the match goes. Who responds to what in time, so on and so forth.
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Ah, I was waiting for C2's response. Change my vote to incon for C2's reasons.
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I have a couple of issues with inconclusive. Goku's way of avoiding attacks don't just amount to countering with ki-blasts or raising barriers, he also uses his body parts such as arms or legs to parry away ki attacks. If he does this with Superman's heat vision, as we all acknowledge, Goku will be harmed badly and at a severe disadvantage. Which Superman can capitalise on. I believe in this case Superman wins.
I'm fairly certain Superman's intangibility can also be used lethally like the Flash has done before though I'm not sure if Superman has actually done this. Superman can also use it to turn invisible. Either way this means no matter what Goku does, it won't connect. Goku's stamina is pretty bad in comparison to Superman's. So another win condition for Superman is simply outlasting.
Superman has more win-conditions sure. I see him winning more times out of ten than Goku would win.
I'm fairly certain Superman's intangibility can also be used lethally like the Flash has done before though I'm not sure if Superman has actually done this. Superman can also use it to turn invisible. Either way this means no matter what Goku does, it won't connect. Goku's stamina is pretty bad in comparison to Superman's. So another win condition for Superman is simply outlasting.
Superman has more win-conditions sure. I see him winning more times out of ten than Goku would win.
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Years ago I'd never concede on this, but now I can see that this argument is completely correct.EmperorRorepme said:
Sups FRA.
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Goku can litteraly fight just by feeling the air moving from his opponent's attack, add sensing to that and Goku is pretty much guaranteed to know it's a dangerous attack, Goku slapping Ki blast away only happened a handfull of time, he mostly goes for beam struggles or dodging while Superman is the one who would have no idea he should go intangible against Goku's big attack.EmperorRorepme said:
If we never see it and are never told he can do it, i don't see why we should assume that A : he can do it and B : Would do it.
Turning invisible is useless, Goku can sense him and has ehanced sense to the point he can fight with his eye closed with no issue.
If anything it add a wincon for Goku of Superman just not thinking he should intangibility against this random attack.
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What are their win-cons?
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No, Goku has never sensed a Ki Attack and dodged it because he sensed it had dangerous properties. Goku does slap away attacks fairly often. Superman doesn't need to know, he just doesn't want to get hit. Same with any attack really.
Because Flash and Superman uses the same intangibility as Flash through high-speed. All Flash does differently is stop the intangibility when he's going through someone.
Now we're saying Superman will just stand there and take the attack? No.
Because Flash and Superman uses the same intangibility as Flash through high-speed. All Flash does differently is stop the intangibility when he's going through someone.
Now we're saying Superman will just stand there and take the attack? No.
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For Goku, it's hitting with an kamehameha or something like that (can Chou Goku use kienzan ?) or pummeling Superman enough i guesse.Adem Warlock69 said:
For Superman, it's hitting with the heat vision or frost breath (only at absolute zero i think, which Superman rarely goes for IMO) in a lethal way i guesse.
Both are more or less the same IMO, It's as C2 said.
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Years ago I'd never concede on this, but now I can see that this argument is completely correct.
Sups FRA.
Goku would be able to tell that supes HV would be lethal to him for a couple reasons. When Frieza was launching death beams at goku the first fight his first move was to dodge it. People within dragon ball are able to tell what would be a lethal attack. Vegeta was able to tell that Krillin's Kienzan would kill Nappa without even being able to sense Ki.
Sups FRA.
Goku would be able to tell that supes HV would be lethal to him for a couple reasons. When Frieza was launching death beams at goku the first fight his first move was to dodge it. People within dragon ball are able to tell what would be a lethal attack. Vegeta was able to tell that Krillin's Kienzan would kill Nappa without even being able to sense Ki.
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Goku does that all the time, there is litteraly two instance of him slapping a ki blast away and that was when he confirmed multiple time they were no threat to him, every single other instance has Goku dodging or counter blasting.EmperorRorepme said:
Superman goes for dodges or just tank it most of the time if he doesn't know the attack is a killing move.
I'd need source on them being the same and even if it is, we have no indication Flash isn't just way better at it than Superman and thus can do it since Superman never was shown, said or hinted to be able to do it.
No, I'm saying Superman's go to move against an attack he doesn't know can kill him isn't intangibility, otherwise most Superman fights would go way differently.
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Goku would be able to tell that supes HV would be lethal to him for a couple reasons. When Frieza was launching death beams at goku the first fight his first move was to dodge it. People within dragon ball are able to tell what would be a lethal attack. Vegeta was able to tell that Krillin's Kienzan would kill Nappa without even being able to sense Ki.DTG499 said:
Vegeta knew about Kienzan because he himself can do pretty much the exact same technique which he demonstrated in that arc, so I don't think they can just sense danger or something, just because attacks get dodged doesn't mean that, it's natural to dodge attacks.
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Vegeta sensed it was an extremely sharp and powerful being able to cut stronger opponents. That's different from sensing an energy beam can destroy things on a molecular level.
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Vegeta knew about Kienzan because he himself can do pretty much the exact same technique which he demonstrated in that arc, so I don't think they can just sense danger or something, just because attacks get dodged doesn't mean that, it's natural to dodge attacks.Purgy said:
Vegeta copied it from Krillin, he didn't have that technique before as far as we know, same for Freezer.
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That's straight up headcanon. Nowhere is it stated they stole his move, there are many KI attacks that are very similar.Purgy said:
Both cases of someone other than Krillin using a similar technique are litteraly after they themself saw and were threatened by Krillin's kienzan, we never saw someone who never saw that technique just throw it around, unlike say the flying technique, what's more Vegeta only reacted when the attack was thrown IIRC, if it was because he had the same attack, he would have recognized it when Krillin formed it.
Also Vegeta's pride never extended to not steal techniques and technology from his opponents, that's what Saiyans have always done.
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Both cases of someone other than Krillin using a similar technique are litteraly after they themself saw and were threatened by Krillin's kienzan, we never saw someone who never saw that technique just throw it around, unlike say the flying technique, what's more Vegeta only reacted when the attack was thrown IIRC, if it was because he had the same attack, he would have recognized it when Krillin formed it.Dragomer said:
Which doesn't prove anything. Again, Vegeta wouldn't steal a technique, especially not from Krillin at this point in the series. As I said, many KI attacks in dragon ball are extremely similar, it's not exactly famed for it's versatility.
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