The Marvels [Spoilers] Upgrade

[Iamunanimousinthat]

In the latest installment of the MCU, The Marvels, (Great movie by the way, enjoyed it!) Captain Marvel re-ignites the Hala's star. Hala's star was dying and had red color. After Captain Marvel re-ignited it, it became yellow and comparable to Earth's sun. The calc below measures how much energy it would take to reheat the core to allow fusion processes to start once more.

The Marvels: Captain Marvel reignites Hala's Sun

vsbattles.fandom.com

The result is small star with 7.13*10^31 tons of TNT.

Characters who directly scale to this feat: Monica Rambeau, Ms. Marvel, and Dar-Benn

NOTE:

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The Marvels [Spoilers] Upgrade

Simply heating the core won’t work, as it would not increase the mass and pressure of the star, which are essential for sustaining fusion. You have to increase the internal energy of the core entirely, which is the sum of the kinetic energy and the potential energy of the particles in the core.

vsbattles.com

are for a pervious calc that has been reworked in the thread.

 

[Revan_Laha]

No way bruh

 

[Revan_Laha]

This seems great. We just put everyone at High 6-A.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Jesus fcking Christ they just got upgraded

 

[Ped2018]

Great movie by the way, enjoyed it!

Disagree with the crt

 

[Dinobot1996]

Well, if it's been verified, then I don't see any apparent issues here.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The main issue is that the core element of the calc is incorrect

Monica: The reactor in your sun’s core has died, need an incredible amount of energy to jump start it.

CM only needed to provide enough energy to jump star the Sun's core, after which the core would fix itself.

So heating up the entire structure is not needed. CM just needed to provide >3.8e+26 Joules to accomplish the feat.

 

[Dalesean027]

The main issue is that the core element of the calc is incorrect

CM only needed to provide enough energy to jump star the Sun's core, after which the core would fix itself.

So heating up the entire structure is not needed.

well damn thanks for that line, I had no clue this was said

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The main issue is that the core element of the calc is incorrect

CM only needed to provide enough energy to jump star the Sun's core, after which the core would fix itself.

So heating up the entire structure is not needed. CM just needed to provide >3.8e+26 Joules to accomplish the feat.

The number you gave is for the output of the sun’s energy per second. My calc is for Carol changing the temperature of the star’s surface. That amount of joules is not enough to heat the surface.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The number you gave is for the output of the sun’s energy per second. My calc is for Carol changing the temperature of the star’s surface. That amount of joules is not enough to heat the surface.

I know, which is why I said the main issue is that the core assumption of the calc is wrong. CM to accomplish the feat just had to provide enough energy to jump start the core, after which the Star would fix itself.

She didn't heat up the surface to accomplish the feat, just started the core which then performed the feat because it was reactivated.

It's basically like jumping a car battery, you only need to provide an initial surge of energy. After which the car can generate power through motion.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I know, which is why I said the main issue is that the core assumption of the calc is wrong. CM to accomplish the feat just had to provide enough energy to jump start the core, after which the Star would fix itself.

She didn't heat up the surface to accomplish the feat, just started the core which then performed the fear because it was reactivated.

It's basically like jumping a car battery, you only need to provide an initial surge of energy. After which the car can generate power through motion.

Stars aren't batteries and the laws of thermodynamics apply here. They have minimum requirements in order for the cores to undergo fusion. Carol would have to either increase the mass, increase the pressure, or increase the temperature. Her releasing of energy fits best with increasing the temperature. The amount you suggested is not enough to increase the core temperature to the minimum amount needed for fusion.

The reason, I focused on the surface temperature is because we clearly see the color change and can infer the temperature change. We don't know the temperature of the core pre-reignition, but we do know through science that the core would have to reach the temperature of at least 15 million Kelvin.

The number you gave is just the energy output of the sun and isn't relevant to this situation. In fact, I did a calc, and it has a change of temperature of only 0.00265734 Kelvin and the initial temperature would be 14999999.997342659 K, which completely goes against what's shown on screen.

 

[Qawsedf234]

They have minimum requirements in order for the cores to undergo fusion. Carol would have to either increase the mass, increase the pressure, or increase the temperature. Her releasing of energy fits best with increasing the temperature. The amount you suggested is not enough to increase the core temperature to the minimum amount needed for fusion.

She gave it enough energy to restart the fusion process. After which it then ran by itself. By the plot that's what she did, she explicitly gave the core a jump start.

The reason, I focused on the surface temperature is because we clearly see the color change and can infer the temperature change

I know, but that's why it's flawed. CM did not so that, she just restarted the cores fusion process. Which would fundamentally require far less energy, since it would snowball and continue afterwards.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

She gave it enough energy to restart the fusion process. After which it then ran by itself. By the plot that's what she did, she explicitly gave the core a jump start.

I just explained to you that there are only three ways to re-start the fusion process: increase the mass (which what Darr-Ben wanted to do), increase the pressure, or increase the temperature. Carol releasing energy coincides best with increasing the temperature.

I know, but that's why it's flawed. CM did not so that, she just restarted the cores fusion process. Which would fundamentally require far less energy, since it would snowball and continue afterwards.

Absolutely not. This calc is a low ball. Reigniting the core would require way more energy. The core needs to be 15 million K to "jump start" the fusion reaction. I can easily correlate the core temperature to the surface temperature and calc that if you wish.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Absolutely not. This calc is a low ball. Reigniting the core would require way more energy

But she didn't reignite it, she just gave it enough energy to restart fusion. Even something like a Brown Dwarf has a core temp of like, 3 Million C so even if it was dying its still pretty hot.

Either way the calc is just based on a wrong premise.

 

[Revan_Laha]

I can easily correlate the core temperature to the surface temperature and calc that if you wish.

Try that. Find out how much energy would be required to heat the core to 15 million Kelvin.

 

[Revan_Laha]

So

But she didn't reignite it, she just gave it enough energy to restart fusion. Even something like a Brown Dwarf has a core temp of like, 3 Million C so even if it was dying its still pretty hot.

Either way the calc is just based on a wrong premise.

15-3= 12 million Kelvin. We need to find out how much energy would be required to heat the core of the Sun by 12 million Kelvin

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

But she didn't reignite it, she just gave it enough energy to restart fusion.

Let's put away semantics, reignite the core, jumpstart the core, restart the fusion process are all synonymous.

Even something like a Brown Dwarf has a core temp of like, 3 Million C so even if it was dying its still pretty hot.

The star was made comparable to our sun. A brown dwarf cannot support life and has an even colder surface temperature than the star shown in the movie.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The star was made comparable to our sun. A brown dwarf cannot support life and has an even colder surface temperature than the star shown in the movie.

You're focusing on surface temperature again, when that's not what happened. CM just gave the core enough energy to restart fusion. After which it then heated up the rest of the star.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

You're focusing on surface temperature again, when that's not what happened. CM just gave the core enough energy to restart fusion. After which it then heated up the rest of the star.

You are moving goal posts and creating strawmans. You brought up a brown dwarf and I explained to you that the star in the movie cannot be compared to a brown dwarf because they have different surface temperatures and that brown dwarfs cannot support life. The amount of energy you suggested earlier is not enough to make a brown dwarf comparable to our sun.

Also why do you keep ignoring the fact that the core has to be heated up to 15 million kelvin to restart fusion to be comparable to the sun?

 

[Revan_Laha]

You would require to heat the Sun's core to 100 million Kelvin to start the fusion process

What is the Minimum Temperature Required to Fuse Hydrogen Atoms? - National Radio Astronomy Observatory

In order to fuse two hydrogen atoms two things are required: high temperature and high pressure. The minimum temperature...

public.nrao.edu

 

[Revan_Laha]

You are moving goal posts and creating strawmans. You brought up a brown dwarf and I explained to you that the star in the movie cannot be compared to a brown dwarf because they have different surface temperatures and that brown dwarfs cannot support life. The amount of energy you suggested earlier is not enough to make a brown dwarf comparable to our sun.

Also why do you keep ignoring the fact that the core has to be heated up to 15 million kelvin to restart fusion to be comparable to the sun?

Not just 15, 100. 15 is the temperature of our Sun's core. But to restart the fusion, you would require 100 million Kelvin. I actually told ChatGPT to do the math, and the result is quite interesting

 

[Qawsedf234]

You are moving goal posts and creating strawmans

I haven't done either. My first comment was giving a quote restarting the core and the Brown Dwarf one was to show that even a mostly dead star has a rather hot core.

Also why do you keep ignoring the fact that the core has to be heated up to 15 million kelvin to restart fusion to be comparable to the sun?

I didn't, I just said that the current calc just has a flawed basis. She restarted the core, the surface temperature was because the core reheated it, not because of CM.

You would require to heat the Sun's core to 100 million Kelvin to start the fusion process

Fusion is temperature + pressure. The sun's pressure combined with its temp is enough for fusion.

Like, read your own source

In order to fuse two hydrogen atoms two things are required: high temperature and high pressure. The minimum temperature required to fuse hydrogen is about 100 million Kelvin, which is about six times the temperature in the core of our Sun. The pressure required must be high enough to force the hydrogen nuclei within 10^(-12) millimeters of each other. Note that the Sun attains the high temperatures and pressures needed to fuse hydrogen over a very large area by virtue of its very high mass, while on Earth we are able to fuse hydrogen over only a very small area using magnetic fields and lasers to compress and heat the hydrogen atoms.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I actually told ChatGPT to do the math, and the result is quite interesting

ChatGPT isn't a valid math tool since it will just make things up that sounds correct.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Not just 15, 100. 15 is the temperature of our Sun's core. But to restart the fusion, you would require 100 million Kelvin. I actually told ChatGPT to do the math, and the result is quite interesting

That temperature is not needed because of the pressure and mass of the sun.

I didn't, I just said that the current calc just has a flawed basis. She restarted the core, the surface temperature was because the core reheated it, not because of CM.

And I stated that I can use the surface temperature to corelate an initial temperature of the core pre-reignition and calculate that or would you like me to use the temperature of a brown dwarf as the starting point?

I haven't done either. My first comment was giving a quote restarting the core and the Brown Dwarf one was to show that even a mostly dead star has a rather hot core.

All star cores are hot, but in relevance to the other stars, Brown Dwarfs are fairly cold, and they cannot undergo the necessary fusion that our Sun goes through and cannot sustain life. If Carol was restarting the core of the Brown Dwarf to the point that it can be comparable to the sun, she would need to raise the temperature of the core from 3 million K to 15 million K.

A small amount of energy, such as the amount you suggested, isn't enough to raise the temperature of star's core nor can it start the fusion process that our Sun goes through.

 

[Revan_Laha]

ChatGPT isn't a valid math tool since it will just make things up that sounds correct.

I used Bing AI then. Which is an AI based search engine. It tells that the coolest star than can still be habitable is a red dwarf. We should assume Hala's sun before CM reignited it to have red dwarf levels of temperature.

 

[Qawsedf234]

And I stated that I can use the surface temperature to corelate an initial temperature of the core pre-reignition and calculate that or would you like me to use the temperature of a brown dwarf as the starting point?

From what I understand the options are:

1. Find either the energy output the star had pre-jump start and what it had afterwords, with CM providing the difference
2. Find the energy to heat the entire core to normal temperatures compared to what it was
3. Use the average per second output and assume that would be enough to restart the process since the mass didn't change

We already have a number for 3, but 2 would give you the best results with 1 being in-between the two probably.

A small amount of energy, such as the amount you suggested, isn't enough to raise the temperature of star's core nor can it start the fusion process that our Sun goes through.

The energy I provided was the Sun's persecond release value. Which under that assumption would just provide enough power for the core to snowball back to normal afterwards.

 

[Revan_Laha]

the core temperature of a red dwarf with the same radius as the Sun would be about 3.3 million kelvins, which is much lower than the Sun’s core temperature of about 15.7 million kelvins.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

1. Find the energy to heat the entire core to normal temperatures compared to what it was

If we use Revan's suggestion of Red Dwarf as a reference it will work, and it has precedent since the star has same surface temperature as a red dwarf.

1. Use the average per second output and assume that would be enough to restart the process since the mass didn't change

The energy I provided was the Sun's persecond release value. Which under that assumption would just provide enough power for the core to snowball back to normal afterwards.

This wouldn't be enough. The energy output of the sun isn't enough to raise the temperature of the core, increase it's mass or increase the pressure. It would not start the fusion process or make the star comparable to the sun.

 

[Revan_Laha]

If we use Revan's suggestion of Red Dwarf as a reference it will work, and it has precedent since the star has same surface temperature as a red dwarf.



This wouldn't be enough. The energy output of the sun isn't enough to raise the temperature of the core, increase it's mass or increase the temperature. It would not start the fusion process or make the star comparable to the sun.

That's right. a red dwarf with the same radius as the Sun would have only about 23% of the Sun’s mass. It's mass wouldn't be enough to provide enough energy to sustain the core reaction.

 

[Revan_Laha]

That's right. a red dwarf with the same radius as the Sun would have only about 23% of the Sun’s mass. It's mass wouldn't be enough to provide enough energy to sustain the core reaction.

It's easy to calculate this. According to the models, the core temperature of a star is proportional to the cube root of its mass divided by its radius, and inversely proportional to the square root of its mean molecular weight. The mean molecular weight is the average mass of the particles in the core, which is mainly determined by the composition and the degree of ionization. For a red dwarf, the core is mostly composed of hydrogen and helium, and is fully ionized, meaning that the electrons are separated from the nuclei. Therefore, the mean molecular weight is about 0.62.

The Sun has a mass of about 1.99 × 10³⁰ kg and a radius of about 695,700 km . If we assume that a red dwarf with the same radius has the same mean molecular weight of 0.6 as before, then we can calculate its mass by using the inverse of the power-law function that relates the mass and radius of a red dwarf. For example, using the relation given by , we get:
M=0.23R^1.25
where M is the mass in solar units and R is the radius in solar units. Plugging in the values, we get:
M≈0.23(1)^1.25≈0.23 M⊙

 

[Revan_Laha]

Using the same formula for the core temperature as before, we get:
T=(M^1/3/R)×μ^1/21×4.4×10^6
where T is the core temperature in kelvins, M is the mass in solar units, R is the radius in solar units, μ is the mean molecular weight, and 4.4 × 10⁶ is a constant factor that depends on the units and the physics of the star. Plugging in the values, we get:
T≈[(0.23)^1/3/1]×[1/(0.6)^1/2]×4.4×10^6≈3.3×10^6 K

 

[Revan_Laha]

It's theoretically impossible to reignite a red dwarf into a yellow sun because we need to provide the lost mass too, and that's exactly what Dar-Benn was going to do.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

It's theoretically impossible to reignite a red dwarf into a yellow sun because we need to provide the lost mass too, and that's exactly what Dar-Benn was going to do.

Since Carol restarted the core by adding energy to it, most likely the star lost its ability to undego fusion by it's core cooling. This would explain the change in surface temperature while still keeping majority of it's mass.

 

[Revan_Laha]

Since Carol restarted the core by adding energy to it, most likely the star lost its ability to undego fusion by it's core cooling. This would explain the change in surface temperature while still keeping majority of it's mass.

Heating the core of the red dwarf to the same temperature as the Sun would not make it a yellow star, as there are other factors that affect the color and luminosity of a star, such as the surface temperature, the radius, and the spectral class. The Sun is a G-type yellow dwarf star, with a surface temperature of about 5,800 kelvins and a luminosity of about 3.83 × 10²⁶ watts. A red dwarf with the same radius as the Sun would have a much lower surface temperature and luminosity, as it would have a lower mass and pressure, and thus a lower rate of fusion. To make it a yellow star, we would need to increase its surface temperature and luminosity to match the Sun’s.

 

[Revan_Laha]

Heating the core of the red dwarf to the same temperature as the Sun would not make it a yellow star, as there are other factors that affect the color and luminosity of a star, such as the surface temperature, the radius, and the spectral class. The Sun is a G-type yellow dwarf star, with a surface temperature of about 5,800 kelvins and a luminosity of about 3.83 × 10²⁶ watts. A red dwarf with the same radius as the Sun would have a much lower surface temperature and luminosity, as it would have a lower mass and pressure, and thus a lower rate of fusion. To make it a yellow star, we would need to increase its surface temperature and luminosity to match the Sun’s.

I did the rest of the calc too, shall I post it?

 

[Dalesean027]

I did the rest of the calc too, shall I post it?

Yeah

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Heating the core of the red dwarf to the same temperature as the Sun would not make it a yellow star, as there are other factors that affect the color and luminosity of a star, such as the surface temperature, the radius, and the spectral class. The Sun is a G-type yellow dwarf star, with a surface temperature of about 5,800 kelvins and a luminosity of about 3.83 × 10²⁶ watts. A red dwarf with the same radius as the Sun would have a much lower surface temperature and luminosity, as it would have a lower mass and pressure, and thus a lower rate of fusion. To make it a yellow star, we would need to increase its surface temperature and luminosity to match the Sun’s.

Hala’s Star isn’t exactly a red dwarf but it should similar enough aside from the question of its mass.

I also did a calc but let’s see what you did and compare.

 

[Revan_Laha]

Hala’s Star isn’t exactly a red dwarf but it should similar enough aside from the question of its mass.

I also did a calc but let’s see what you did and compare.

What did you do though? If you just heat the core from 3.3 to 15.7 million Kelvin, it would require 1.28 x 10^38 J. Formulas I used
Ei=1.5NkT.
the mass of the core is about 0.23 solar masses, and the density is about 150,000 kg/m³. Using the formula for the volume of a sphere, we can estimate the volume of the core as:
V=4/3πr^3
Plugging in the values, we get:
V≈4/3π(139,140,000)^3≈1.13×10^25 m3
To find the number of particles, we divide the mass by the density, and then by the average mass of a particle. We assume that the average mass of a particle is the same as the mean molecular weight, which is about 0.6. Therefore, we get:
N≈M/ρμ
Using the values, we get:
N≈(0.23×1.99×10^30)/(150,000×0.6)≈4.54×10^33
Using these values, we can calculate the difference in internal energy between the red dwarf and the Sun by using the equation:
∆Ei=1.5*(4.54*10^33)(1.38*10^-23)(15.7-3.3)*10^6= 1.28*10^38J.

 

[Revan_Laha]

It's easy to calculate this. According to the models, the core temperature of a star is proportional to the cube root of its mass divided by its radius, and inversely proportional to the square root of its mean molecular weight. The mean molecular weight is the average mass of the particles in the core, which is mainly determined by the composition and the degree of ionization. For a red dwarf, the core is mostly composed of hydrogen and helium, and is fully ionized, meaning that the electrons are separated from the nuclei. Therefore, the mean molecular weight is about 0.62.

The Sun has a mass of about 1.99 × 10³⁰ kg and a radius of about 695,700 km . If we assume that a red dwarf with the same radius has the same mean molecular weight of 0.6 as before, then we can calculate its mass by using the inverse of the power-law function that relates the mass and radius of a red dwarf. For example, using the relation given by , we get:
M=0.23R^1.25
where M is the mass in solar units and R is the radius in solar units. Plugging in the values, we get:
M≈0.23(1)^1.25≈0.23 M⊙

This is where I got the mass

 

[Revan_Laha]

The internal energy of a star is the sum of the kinetic energy and the potential energy of the particles in the star. The kinetic energy is the energy of motion, and the potential energy is the energy of interaction, such as gravity and electrostatic forces. Simply heating the core wouldn't do anything. I have an MSc in Physics, I know this at least