The long awaited and great Pokemon upgrades

[Arceus0x]

Sup boys, yep, it is time. We're doing this again, another verse-wide rev.

This time, we're not doing the final evos but rather the pre-evos, we're doing them justice this time.

First off, let's talk about unevolved pokemon (excluding babies and magikarp, that'll be good for a later CRT)

Low 7-B unevolved pokemon

It all stems from downscaling to Rhyhorn who is
"Ludicrously strong—when it butts heads with a mountain, it is the mountain that shatters. But its short legs struggle with turns, and it is incapable of stopping unless it collides with something."
-according to his pokedex entry for PLA which is confirmed by the japanese translations.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/pokemon-legends-arceus-discussion-thread-spoilers.130687/post-4492972

Considering in that according to mountain and island level requirements page the minimum energy for the destruction of a mountain is 1.45 megatons of TNT or Small City level.
This would scale to all unevolved pokemon except for the babies and magikarp/feebas type of pokemon. This is because Rhyhorn in on itself is unevolved, has 3 stages, has base stats closer to 1st stage pokemon and not 2nd stage ones, and we have supporting feats:
These supporting feats were done by both trained and untrained pokemon so might as well list them as support:

• Catastropika's power (2.45 Kilotons - Small Town level)
• Piplup's Whirlpool (131.04 Kilotons - Large Town level)
• Pupitar topples a mountain (187.1 Kilotons - Large Town level)
• Dawn's Buneary freezes a lake (3.807 Kilotons - Small Town level+)
• Dawn's Buneary sinks a ship (33.513 Kilotons - Town level)
• Drifloon explodes (776.5 Kilotons - Large Town level+)

Now one of these is actually wrong, specifically the Pupitar one since, in fact, it "destroys" a mountain in its japanese version of the translation, making that Low 7-B as well. Another thing worth mentioning is that drifloon survived his own explosion and was untrained.
I will say though that unevolved pokemon would downscale from the guy, but they should definitely scale since there's no indication that Rhyhorn is suddenly on the same level as 2nd stages or sth.

This leads us to our next upgrade:

Low 7-B, possibly 7-B 2nd stage pokemon

First off, it's damn clear that pokemon who are 2nd stage would scale above unevolved ones. There are two options:

1. Make them scale just above 1.45 mgt
2. Make them scale to 2.9 mgt via scaling above cubone with thick club

Make your choice.

Now this brings us to the 7-B part which is this calc
Dragonair nukes a city
which gives us 45.88 mgt or 7-B.
Now comes the question: why possibly?
Here's the answer.
The Dragonair from the manga was "previously trained", however there are nuances to this. 1. There's a very high chance that the dragonair in question was trained for Surfing, not in combat, since it was specifically advertized as a perfect partner for a surfer and was the prize of a surfing contest. 2. The dragonair in question is not a lvl 100 dragonair, and since we use lvl 100 perfect IV EV pokemon, it is an important part. Why do levels matter here? Simple, levels work like they do in games when it comes to the manga. Pokemon evolve at certain levels and their evolution can ONLY be prevented with a pokedex. Despite participating in combat later on, Dragonair did not evolve and the later owner had no pokedex. This means that when Dragonair did the feat in question it was still unevolved and less than lvl 60.

Due to the potential problems of the dragonair, it was decided that we can make it scale to 2nd stages, thus making the second stage pokemon scale to

At least Low 7-B, possibly 7-B

Overall making an average pokemon

Low 7-B | At least Low 7-B, possibly 7-B

Now for a different upgrade

Psychic pokemon LS upgrade

First off, I believe that, considering the fact that throwing around and restricting opponents is their whole thing, Psychic pokemon should scale to the respective LS of their evolution stage, thus
1st-2nd stage - Class K
3rd stage- Class M

Second of all, we should scale psychic pokemon who are renowned as powerful TK users to Class G based on this:
-Slowking moves an island
-Meowstic rips apart a tanker ship

The list of pokemon I wish to upgrade at the given moment is
-Meowstic
-Slowking
-Metagross
-Gardevoir
-Gothitelle
-Alakazam
-Lugia
-Any other featless psychic legendary which has no scaling

Since they are all renowned powerful psychic types, this list is the ones who'll get the upgrades.

Extra: Passimian and Oranguru to High 7-A

Passimian are stated to be comparable to Ambipom:
"In their search for comfortable trees, they get into territorial disputes with groups of Passimian. They win about half the time."
-Ambipom's pokedex entries. Ambipom is High 7-A and thus they scale.
Oranguru is the game exlusive variant of passimian, basically being what you get instead of a passimian if you boot up P. Moon instead of P. Sun. They are also said to engage in battles of wits with Slowkings. They scale as well.

That is all for now.

Overall:
-Low 7-B unevolved mons
-At least Low 7-B, possibly 7-B 2nd stages
-Class K via TK for stage 1-2 psychic pokemon
-Class M via TK for stage 3 psychic pokemon
-Class G for the strongest psychic pokemon
-Passimian and Oranguru get High 7-A

Corrections added within the discussion below
At least High 7-C, at most Low 7-B - 1st stages
7-B - 2nd stages
Changed back to At most Low 7-B for 1st stages and 7-B for 2nd stages

 

[GodlyCharmander]

— Low 7-B 1st Stage Pokémon
Completely agree with Low 7-B first stages. With two Low 7-B feats, and most of the supporting feats being either low ends, or casual, I think it's solid enough.

— Low 7-B, possibly 7-B 2nd Stage Pokémon
Disagree with possibly. With 2nd Stage Pokemon scaling far higher than the Low 7-B ones, and given how our profiles take Pokemon at their theoretical peak, the 7-B should be a full tier, or at very least likely. Dragonair is lv ~55, and not focused on fighting, its feat shouldn't be stronger than a Lv 100 Untrained Dragonair.

— LS strength.
agree with everything.

— High 7-A Monke
I am surprised they weren't High 7-A already, it's pretty clear, I agree.

 

[Popted2]

Agree with the op

 

[Imaginym]

Sup boys, yep, it is time. We're doing this again, another verse-wide rev.

This time, we're not doing the final evos but rather the pre-evos, we're doing them justice this time.

First off, let's talk about unevolved pokemon (excluding babies and magikarp, that'll be good for a later CRT)

Low 7-B unevolved pokemon

It all stems from downscaling to Rhyhorn who is
"Ludicrously strong—when it butts heads with a mountain, it is the mountain that shatters. But its short legs struggle with turns, and it is incapable of stopping unless it collides with something."
-according to his pokedex entry for PLA which is confirmed by the japanese translations.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/pokemon-legends-arceus-discussion-thread-spoilers.130687/post-4492972

Considering in that according to mountain and island level requirements page the minimum energy for the destruction of a mountain is 1.45 megatons of TNT or Small City level.
This would scale to all unevolved pokemon except for the babies and magikarp/feebas type of pokemon. This is because Rhyhorn in on itself is unevolved, has 3 stages, has base stats closer to 1st stage pokemon and not 2nd stage ones, and we have supporting feats:

IIRC, Rhyhorn is often described as though exceptionally strong. All brawn, no brain. It feels like it should be at least a little higher than other 1st stages.
Maybe have them downscale slightly, or have Rhyhorn's feat be a "Possibly"/"Likely" for 1st Stages? It kinda is 1 of the highest feats for 1st stages ever, AFAIK.

These supporting feats were done by both trained and untrained pokemon so might as well list them as support:

• Catastropika's power (2.45 Kilotons - Small Town level)

There are a lot of comments on this one, but I'm not sure this was accepted, & newer comments don't seem that accepting of it.
Could a Calc Group Member please evaluate it to make sure it's acceptable?

• Piplup's Whirlpool (131.04 Kilotons - Large Town level)

Unsure if it was accepted. Needs evaluation.
Also, was proposed as scaling to 2nd stages, due to being done by Dawn's Piplup.

• Pupitar topples a mountain (187.1 Kilotons - Large Town level)

Accepted. Although, Pupitar is the middle stage of a Pseudo-Legendary line, & its feat is very high, so it's likely very powerful. I think it's dubious to use this as supporting evidence to scaling 1st stages higher.
But I'd be somewhat okay with scaling 2nd stages down from Pupitar's feat, or making scaling to its value a Possibly/Likely unless there's other feats on this level for 2nd Stages.

• Dawn's Buneary freezes a lake (3.807 Kilotons - Small Town level+)

Seems to have been accepted, thankfully.

• Dawn's Buneary sinks a ship (33.513 Kilotons - Town level)

Part of the same Calc Blog as the lake-freezing calc. The blog was accepted without being specific about which feats, so I guess both the Buneary freezing feats were accepted?

However, it's troubling that it's done by a presumably Trained Pokemon, yet both feats are several tens of times or more lower than the proposed 1.45 Megatons scaling point being proposed.

• Drifloon explodes (776.5 Kilotons - Large Town level+)

This calculation blog does not appear to have any official acceptance on it. Even if it was accepted in the past, I feel it would be problematic if it was not immediately visible as being accepted.
Could a Calculation Group member evaluation this to make sure it's acceptable?

Now one of these is actually wrong, specifically the Pupitar one since, in fact, it "destroys" a mountain in its japanese version of the translation, making that Low 7-B as well. Another thing worth mentioning is that drifloon survived his own explosion and was untrained.
I will say though that unevolved pokemon would downscale from the guy, but they should definitely scale since there's no indication that Rhyhorn is suddenly on the same level as 2nd stages or sth.

So, have 1st Stages downscale slightly, or have Rhyhorn's feat be a "Possibly"/"Likely" for 1st Stages?

Second of all, we should scale psychic pokemon who are renowned as powerful TK users to Class G based on this:
-Slowking moves an island

Accepted, thankfully.

-Meowstic rips apart a tanker ship

Accepted, thankfully.

Passimian are stated to be comparable to Ambipom:
"In their search for comfortable trees, they get into territorial disputes with groups of Passimian. They win about half the time."
-Ambipom's pokedex entries. Ambipom is High 7-A and thus they scale.
Oranguru is the game exlusive variant of passimian, basically being what you get instead of a passimian if you boot up P. Moon instead of P. Sun. They are also said to engage in battles of wits with Slowkings. They scale as well.

While I agree in this case, since Passimian & Oranguru have statements for scaling to fully evolved Pokemon, I do encourage being careful, since it may not always make sense to have Version Counterparts be comparable to one another.


As an aside, regardless of the logic involved, my emotions make part of me personally like the idea of 1st Stage Pokemon being Low 7-B, because media often portrays 1st Stages as not that much weaker than 2nd Stages.
So having the two groups be at similar levels of powers makes some sense as a sort of compromise to me, even if not all Pokemon of those groups are that powerful or that weak, of course.

 

[Arceus0x]

IIRC, Rhyhorn is often described as though exceptionally strong. All brawn, no brain. It feels like it should be at least a little higher than other 1st stages.
Maybe have them downscale slightly, or have Rhyhorn's feat be a "Possibly"/"Likely" for 1st Stages? It kinda is 1 of the highest feats for 1st stages ever, AFAIK.

just because they are described as strong doesn't make it 1000x of times stronger than the average unevolved pokemon. I agree with downscaling though, i'd say we should scale unevolved mons to baseline low 7-B.

Accepted. Although, Pupitar is the middle stage of a Pseudo-Legendary line, & its feat is very high, so it's likely very powerful. I think it's dubious to use this as supporting evidence to scaling 1st stages higher.
But I'd be somewhat okay with scaling 2nd stages down from Pupitar's feat, or making scaling to its value a Possibly/Likely unless there's other feats on this level for 2nd Stages.

the calc itself is irrelevant since, like i said, if we translate from japanese it says destroy, not topple, making it Low 7-B.
Next is the fact that pseudo-legendary means nothing, the term is fanmade, it is used to differentiate some pokemon who are somewhat tougher and evolve later.
And i know that it is 2nd stage, i just sent a supporting feat to prove the tier low 7-B is an actual thing and not an outlier.

The rest of the calcs are old and i added them as support to show that unevolved pokemon aren't just 8-C fodder or sth (since at this point the 8-A skyscraper thing is irrelevant), the drifloon calc was confirmed by the calc member in the comment section who gave the 776 kiloton result.

 

[Imaginym]

just because they are described as strong doesn't make it 1000x of times stronger than the average unevolved pokemon.

I do not think Rhyhorn is 1000x stronger than the average unevolved Pokemon either. I think it's slightly/moderately stronger. At best, a few times stronger.

I agree with downscaling though, i'd say we should scale unevolved mons to baseline low 7-B.

So, scale Rhyhorn to 1.45 Megatons of TNT
& downscale other 1st Stage Pokemon from that, to Baseline Low 7-B, which is 1 Megaton?
1.45 Megatons of TNT / 1 Megaton of TNT = So Rhyhorn is scaled as about 1.45 stronger than other 1st Stages, then?

Does that sound reasonable?

the calc itself is irrelevant since, like i said, if we translate from japanese it says destroy, not topple, making it Low 7-B.

So you mean that based on the original Japanese Language, the means of the mountain's destruction is different from how it was Calculated, & thus, the value would be closer to that of Rhyhorn's feat?
AFAIK, the calc says about the methodology:
"When something topples, it falls one fourth of 360 degrees, that is, 90 degrees. So the arc length is 152.5*pi/4 = 119.8m."

You propose that rather than that interpretation of the Pokedex entry about Pupitar's feat, we interpret the entry as destruction of a mountain, since that is accurate to the original Japanese language version of that same said Pokedex entry?

Next is the fact that pseudo-legendary means nothing, the term is fanmade, it is used to differentiate some pokemon who are somewhat tougher and evolve later.

I feel like sometimes, "Pseudo-Legendary" Line Pokemon are portrayed in official media as though they are notably strong, but I'm not sure if there's evidence of that.

Still, you acknowledge that being part of a Pseudolegendary Pokemon are tougher, no? So Pupitar is tougher for a 2nd Stage, right?

And i know that it is 2nd stage, i just sent a supporting feat to prove the tier low 7-B is an actual thing and not an outlier.

An actual thing for 2nd Stages, you mean?

The rest of the calcs are old and i added them as support to show that unevolved pokemon aren't just 8-C fodder or sth (since at this point the 8-A skyscraper thing is irrelevant), the drifloon calc was confirmed by the calc member in the comment section who gave the 776 kiloton result.

Oh. For some reason, the link takes me to:

Drifloon Blows Up

vsbattles.fandom.com

So I only see Amelia & Ant's comment chain. Weird.
Your link to the Drifloon Calc in the OP seems to be like that.
Clicked View All Comments.
Oh.
You're using the Recalc from Amelia in the comments.
Is that Acceptable & Accepted?
AFAIK, the blog wasn't adjusted, & Amelia's wasn't published to a blog to be evaluated by other Calculation Group Members.

 

[GyroNutz]

Low 7-B unevolved pokemon

Agreed. I would also like to mention that Drifloon's explosion, the next highest first stage feat (Pupitar is 2nd stage), was caused by the Aftermath ability rather than the move Explosion, and several first stage Pokemon were close to the epicenter when it went off (and survived). So the Drifloon feat is usable as support. Secondly, Rhyhorn's current feat is 8-A+ (shattering a skyscraper) but that's the lowest possible end for it. All other ends of that calc are tier 7, so that somewhat supports the rating as well.

Now one of these is actually wrong, specifically the Pupitar one since, in fact, it "destroys" a mountain in its japanese version of the translation, making that Low 7-B as well.

I'd like the full translation please.

Low 7-B, possibly 7-B 2nd stage pokemon

I'm fine with this too, naturally. I'd prefer if we went the "pure power/thick club" route, making 2nd stages >2.9 megatons for being stronger than the likes of Pure Power Meditite, Huge Power Marill and Thick Club Cubone.

-Class K via TK for stage 1-2 psychic pokemon
-Class M via TK for stage 3 psychic pokemon
-Class G for the strongest psychic pokemon
-Passimian and Oranguru get High 7-A

Seems fine. Sidenote, I thought you were also going to bring up Riolu, Elekid and Magby scaling to first stages?

Unsure if it was accepted. Needs evaluation.

This calculation blog does not appear to have any official acceptance on it. Even if it was accepted in the past, I feel it would be problematic if it was not immediately visible as being accepted.

Alex accepted the first one, I think corrected calcs count as accepted but if not then I guess that can be looked at again.

 

[Arceus0x]

I do not think Rhyhorn is 1000x stronger than the average unevolved Pokemon either. I think it's slightly/moderately stronger. At best, a few times stronger.

yes

So, scale Rhyhorn to 1.45 Megatons of TNT
& downscale other 1st Stage Pokemon from that, to Baseline Low 7-B, which is 1 Megaton?
1.45 Megatons of TNT / 1 Megaton of TNT = So Rhyhorn is scaled as about 1.45 stronger than other 1st Stages, then?

yep

So you mean that based on the original Japanese Language, the means of the mountain's destruction is different from how it was Calculated, & thus, the value would be closer to that of Rhyhorn's feat?
AFAIK, the calc says about the methodology:
"When something topples, it falls one fourth of 360 degrees, that is, 90 degrees. So the arc length is 152.5*pi/4 = 119.8m."

You propose that rather than that interpretation of the Pokedex entry about Pupitar's feat, we interpret the entry as destruction of a mountain, since that is accurate to the original Japanese language version of that same said Pokedex entry?

indeed. I'd like someone else to look at it but yes

I feel like sometimes, "Pseudo-Legendary" Line Pokemon are portrayed in official media as though they are notably strong, but I'm not sure if there's evidence of that.

Still, you acknowledge that being part of a Pseudolegendary Pokemon are tougher, no? So Pupitar is tougher for a 2nd Stage, right?

i think they are slightly stronger, but not necessarily stronger than everyone. Just because Ghyrados is not a pseudo-legend doesn't make it weaker than them.

An actual thing for 2nd Stages, you mean?

like the fact that it exists and i didn't just pull out an outlier out of nowhere

So I only see Amelia & Ant's comment chain. Weird.
Your link to the Drifloon Calc in the OP seems to be like that.
Clicked View All Comments.
Oh.
You're using the Recalc from Amelia in the comments.
Is that Acceptable & Accepted?
AFAIK, the blog wasn't adjusted, & Amelia's wasn't published to a blog to be evaluated by other Calculation Group Members.

you could try to get it accepted, i just don't care as much cause its just support

 

[Arceus0x]

Seems fine. Sidenote, I thought you were also going to bring up Riolu, Elekid and Magby scaling to first stages?

I think ill leave it for a later date. it is one of those things that end up causing unnecessarily long arguments for no reason so ill leave it for now.

 

[Arceus0x]

Also i found a feat that i will definitely leave for a future CRT that could change a few things

 

[GyroNutz]

I feel like sometimes, "Pseudo-Legendary" Line Pokemon are portrayed in official media as though they are notably strong, but I'm not sure if there's evidence of that.

Still, you acknowledge that being part of a Pseudolegendary Pokemon are tougher, no? So Pupitar is tougher for a 2nd Stage, right?

I personally think only the final evolution of the psuedo-legendary lines are notably strong (since they're the ones with 600 BST, which is how the term was coined in the first place).

 

[Arceus0x]

I personally think only the final evolution of the psuedo-legendary lines are notably strong (since they're the ones with 600 BST, which is how the term was coined in the first place).

that's actually true, they are the only ones with somewhat outstanding base stats and they're still matched by non pseudo-legendaries

 

[Imaginym]

yes

yep

These have my approval, then.

indeed. I'd like someone else to look at it but yes

Agreed. Someone else should look at it.

i think they are slightly stronger, but not necessarily stronger than everyone. Just because Ghyrados is not a pseudo-legend doesn't make it weaker than them.

They can't be slightly stronger than everyone if some individuals in everyone (Like Gyarados) are not slightly weaker than them.
Though, Gyarados being an in-universe reputedly powerful & Mega Evolution capable Pokemon does indicate it's powerful, yes.

like the fact that it exists and i didn't just pull out an outlier out of nowhere

Yeah, but it's a feat for 2nd Stages, not just every Pokemon, right?

you could try to get it accepted, i just don't care as much cause its just support

It would be good if it got accepted. Good to know stances on matters like this.

I personally think only the final evolution of the psuedo-legendary lines are notably strong (since they're the ones with 600 BST, which is how the term was coined in the first place).

Fair point.

Do you have any opinion on Pupitar's mountain destruction feat being used in support of the proposed re-tiering of 1st Stage Pokemon?
As is, I feel somewhat fine with downscaling them from Rhyhorn's 1.45 Megaton Mountain Bust to 1 Megaton (Baseline Low 7-B.).

 

[Arceus0x]

Yeah, but it's a feat for 2nd Stages, not just every Pokemon, right?

yes, but like i said, its supporting evidence

 

[Imaginym]

yes, but like i said, its supporting evidence

Feat for a 2nd stage is supporting evidence for scaling for 1st stages? If so, weird, but.... Okay, I guess?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Feat for a 2nd stage is supporting evidence for scaling for 1st stages? If so, weird, but.... Okay, I guess?

Guess it's more of a supportive evident that Low 7-B isn't anything absurd for Pokemon, 2nd stages are not thaaaat much stronger than 1st stages. Plus, Pupitar's feat likely scales higher since Low 7-B is the Lowest Result Possible.

 

[Arceus0x]

Guess it's more of a supportive evident that Low 7-B isn't anything absurd for Pokemon, 2nd stages are not thaaaat much stronger than 1st stages. Plus, Pupitar's feat likely scales higher since Low 7-B is the Lowest Result Possible.

yep, that was the intention

 

[Lou_change]

Agree to low 7-B unevolved Pokemon just some questions like is it okay to use z moves for support and should we use Dawn's Pokemon?
Agree with new stats for stage two Pokemon and everything else except g class for strongest psychics that is a rather large gap having so few scale sounds off but I don't really have anything to argue it other than why those psychic types aren't the only ones to use telekinesis or be known for powerful telekinesis, ghost types have a few I feel it should be possibly because otherwise why is the only gap their powerful telekinesis and not psybeam or other moves it feels off.

 

[Arceus0x]

is it okay to use z moves for support and should we use Dawn's Pokemon?

it's only used to support that this isn't an outlier that came out of nowhere. The case with the z-move comes from the fact that pikachu can survive in that.

that is a rather large gap having so few scale sounds off

Machamp and Grimmsnarl scale to class M due to being superior to others, same goes here. If you're concerned about gaps then you should be more concerned about the fact that the difference between a charmander's AP and a charizard's will be 3190x after the upgrade, and currently it is 4761194x.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

the difference between a charmander's AP and a charizard's will be 3190x after the upgrade, and currently it is 4761194x.

Yeah bro, I'm not that weak, come on.

 

[Lou_change]

it's only used to support that this isn't an outlier that came out of nowhere. The case with the z-move comes from the fact that pikachu can survive in that.

Fair

Machamp and Grimmsnarl scale to class M due to being superior to others, same goes here. If you're concerned about gaps then you should be more concerned about the fact that the difference between a charmander's AP and a charizard's will be 3190x after the upgrade, and currently it is 4761194x.

I guess that is on way to look at it but these are pokemon known for high Psychic power in general not just telekinesis yet they aren't a league above other Psychic pokemon in other status not counting legendaries that is and for the stat gap between evolutions is more reasonable if still weird

Yeah bro, I'm not that weak, come on.

One you are a godly charmander two source.

 

[AdNiBN002]

Agree with Op

 

[GodlyCharmander]

One you are a godly charmander two source.

Just because I'm a Mary Sue doesn't mean I can't be humble

Well, I'd give you a feat from my fan-fiction, but it has been deleted.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yeah bro, I'm not that weak, come on.

and that difference would be 5145161290x if we only upgrade rhyhorn

 

[FinePoint]

I generally agree with this.
It seems supported by the evidence, and brings the stages closer together, which is more accurate to how they're portrayed.

 

[Arceus0x]

Fun fact! The difference between 2nd stage and 3rd stages is now approximately 69x

 

[GyroNutz]

Do you have any opinion on Pupitar's mountain destruction feat being used in support of the proposed re-tiering of 1st Stage Pokemon?
As is, I feel somewhat fine with downscaling them from Rhyhorn's 1.45 Megaton Mountain Bust to 1 Megaton (Baseline Low 7-B.).

I think that Dawn's Pokemon and Pupitar support the new ratings of 2nd stages, the main point really is that tier 7 NFE Pokemon is actually consistent, since before almost all of the stage 1 feats seemed to be tier 8. The downscaling bit seems a tad arbitrary too, but I don't have a strong opinion on that really so eh.

Sidenote, but Orbeetle should scale to Class G as well - its pokedex states: "It's famous for its high level of intelligence, and the large size of its brain is proof that it also possesses immense psychic power." Also supports the "battle of wits" idea for High 7-A Oranguru I suppose.

 

[Imaginym]

I think that Dawn's Pokemon and Pupitar support the new ratings of 2nd stages,

I suppose that's fair, but do keep in mind, Rhyhorn's feat is 1.45 Megatons, & we're scaling 1st stages to 1 Megaton.

Dawn's Pokemon's feats are:

• Piplup's Whirlpool (131.04 Kilotons - Large Town level)
• Dawn's Buneary freezes a lake (3.807 Kilotons - Small Town level+)
• Dawn's Buneary sinks a ship (33.513 Kilotons - Town level)

1 Megaton of TNT divided by....
....divided by 3.807 Kilotons of TNT = 262.674022 (Lake freeze.)
....divided by 33.513 Kilotons of TNT = 29.8391669 (Iceberg creation near the ship.)
....divided by 131.04 Kilotons of TNT = 7.63125763 (Whirlpool)

Even the highest of them is over 7.63 times weaker than the value we're scaling 1st stage Pokemon to, & many of the feats are at least 1 order of magnitude below the proposed scaling point.
(Drifloon's explosion comes closest, at 776.5 Kilotons.)

the main point really is that tier 7 NFE Pokemon is actually consistent, since before almost all of the stage 1 feats seemed to be tier 8. The downscaling bit seems a tad arbitrary too, but I don't have a strong opinion on that really so eh.

It does feel a little arbitrary, but Rhyhorn being about 45% higher in Physical AP, at least, kinda makes sense for the species.
Although, just because previous feats were in Tier 8 & these are in Tier 7 mean they're necessarily consistent. Mathematically, many of them are quite far apart.

 

[StekFence]

I agree, mftl+ starters when tho

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Dragonair shouldn't be used to scale to anyone here, it can use hyper beam to one shot some of Giovanni's pokemon, it even created a bubble in that scan that tanked hits from a trained Nidoqueen, one shotted Pika while Dragonair was holding back, who is above even third stage pokemon since he can one shot Giovanni's Nidoqueen with Thunderbolt which requires you to be massively stronger. Its very possible for a Pokemon to be not evolved and be stronger than an evolved form of it

 

[Arceus0x]

Dragonair shouldn't be used to scale to anyone here, it can use hyper beam to one shot some of Giovanni's pokemon, it even created a bubble in that scan that tanked hits from a trained Nidoqueen, one shotted Pika while Dragonair was holding back, who is above even third stage pokemon since he can one shot Giovanni's Nidoqueen with Thunderbolt which requires you to be massively stronger

Doesn't mean much in the mang. Simply put, Dragonair was higher level than Pika, thus defeated it with a potent attack. Levels are what determines one's strength in the fight.
Also, it one-shotted Gio's pokemon way after the events in this panel, thus it is very likely that Lance trained it up a bit afterwards.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Doesn't mean much in the mang. Simply put, Dragonair was higher level than Pika, thus defeated it with a potent attack. Levels are what determines one's strength in the fight.
Also, it one-shotted Gio's pokemon way after the events in this panel, thus it is very likely that Lance trained it up a bit afterwards.

Where is "levels determines one's strength" from?? And I thought this training was about surfing like you said? And I told you why a trained Pokemon already has their power multiplied due to bonds. You can use it as supporting evidence but I don't think we can add the rating

 

[Arceus0x]

Where is "levels determines one's strength" from?? And I thought this training was about surfing like you said? And I told you why a trained Pokemon already has their power multiplied due to bonds. You can use it as supporting evidence but I don't think we can add the rating

and i never accepted that power is multiplied by bonds automatically. It can get boosted with time but it isn't something that happens with any bond and without proper serious training. Levels comes from the fact that the manga works on a different system than the anime, working on levels, as we see pokemon evolve at specific levels and gain moves as well. The only time bonds actually affect anything is in the case with pikachu who ended up being boosted to the same level as fully evolved pokemon. Just because Dragonair one-hit KOd it (which i don't remember im pretty sure they fought for a damn while before pika got knocked out, he even used substitute) doesn't automatically make the dragonair leagues above a perfect EV/IV lvl 100 mon.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

and i never accepted that power is multiplied by bonds automatically. It can get boosted with time but it isn't something that happens with any bond and without proper serious training. Levels comes from the fact that the manga works on a different system than the anime, working on levels, as we see pokemon evolve at specific levels and gain moves as well. The only time bonds actually affect anything is in the case with pikachu who ended up being boosted to the same level as fully evolved pokemon. Just because Dragonair one-hit KOd it (which i don't remember im pretty sure they fought for a damn while before pika got knocked out, he even used substitute) doesn't automatically make the dragonair leagues above a perfect EV/IV lvl 100 mon.

it isn't something that happens with any bond and without proper serious training.

Levels comes from the fact that the manga works on a different system than the anime, working on levels,

The anime also uses levels since its canon to the games. This episode mentions it too. Also, it being a higher level doesn't make it stronger by default and doesnt disprove the fact that it was stronger than Pika

doesn't automatically make the dragonair leagues above a perfect EV/IV lvl 100 mon.

A level 100 mon would be unquantifiable. Prove that a level 100 wild pokemon would be stronger than this dragonair

 

[Arceus0x]

The anime also uses levels since its canon to the games. This episode mentions it too. Also, it being a higher level doesn't make it stronger by default and doesnt disprove the fact that it was stronger than Pika

this episode has been retconned even by the episode itself where misty beats up the guy who is supposed to be stronger than her level wise. Unless you are suggesting that a lvl80s pikachu would lose to a lvl 13 vivillion of course.

A level 100 mon would be unquantifiable. Prove that a level 100 wild pokemon would be stronger than this dragonair

In the manga you can only prevent a pokemon from evolving by using a pokedex and pressing a button to stop its evolution every time, which is proven by the fact that all of Yellow's pokemon evolved after she returned her dex to Red as she couldn't prevent their evolution anymore. Neither the people who were giving away the dragonair nor Lance had a pokedex, thus they couldn't stop the evolution and thus it means the dragonair is below lvl 55.
Considering wild pokemon can be comparable to trained pokemon in the manga (Ninetails beating up Blue until his Machoke became a Machamp and barely managed to pin it down for them to catch it, a wild dragonite matching a Ghyrados trained by Misty) this translates directly into a lvl 100 wild dragonair with perfect IVs and EVs scaling above the dragonite seen in this scene.

 

[Arceus0x]

Also, are we really going to do this again? We already fought over this many times and I don't plan on doing it again. If you're gonna call out legitimate info as something I "made tf up" I will not tolerate it.

 

[GyroNutz]

1 Megaton of TNT divided by....
....divided by 3.807 Kilotons of TNT = 262.674022 (Lake freeze.)
....divided by 33.513 Kilotons of TNT = 29.8391669 (Iceberg creation near the ship.)
....divided by 131.04 Kilotons of TNT = 7.63125763 (Whirlpool)

Even the highest of them is over 7.63 times weaker than the value we're scaling 1st stage Pokemon to, & many of the feats are at least 1 order of magnitude below the proposed scaling point.

I feel like I say this a lot in Pokemon threads, but we shouldn't get caught up on how far apart the numbers are. Tier 4-A feats can be used to support a 3-C rating despite the tier being millions apart, because on the log scale they're in the same ballpark. We also use 7-B and 7-A feats/statements to support the verse's High 7-A+ feats for fully-evolved Pokemon.

Uncalled for.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

this episode has been retconned even by the episode itself where misty beats up the guy who is supposed to be stronger than her level wise. Unless you are suggesting that a lvl80s pikachu would lose to a lvl 13 vivillion of course.

In the manga you can only prevent a pokemon from evolving by using a pokedex and pressing a button to stop its evolution every time, which is proven by the fact that all of Yellow's pokemon evolved after she returned her dex to Red as she couldn't prevent their evolution anymore. Neither the people who were giving away the dragonair nor Lance had a pokedex, thus they couldn't stop the evolution and thus it means the dragonair is below lvl 55.
Considering wild pokemon can be comparable to trained pokemon in the manga (Ninetails beating up Blue until his Machoke became a Machamp and barely managed to pin it down for them to catch it, a wild dragonite matching a Ghyrados trained by Misty) this translates directly into a lvl 100 wild dragonair with perfect IVs and EVs scaling above the dragonite seen in this scene.

Yes, its possible for a lower level pokemon to be stronger than a higher level one

Considering wild pokemon can be comparable to trained pokemon in the manga (Ninetails beating up Blue until his Machoke became a Machamp and barely managed to pin it down for them to catch it,

Scans?

a wild dragonite matching a Ghyrados trained by Misty

Scans?

And dragonair being level 55 doesn't mean its not stronger than fully evolved Pokemon

 

[Arceus0x]

Yes, its possible for a lower level pokemon to be stronger than a higher level one

a level 80-100 pokemon getting beaten by a lvl 13 is not one of those cases. Levels have been irrelevant in the anime since the episode you mentioned, stop using one of the most inconsistent seasons to justify a mechanic that didn't even work properly in the same episode you mentioned.
A lvl 50 beating a lvl 70? maybe. A lvl 13 won't beat a lvl 80 without game mechanics.

Scans?

chapter 18

Scans?

chapter 24

And dragonair being level 55 doesn't mean its not stronger than fully evolved Pokemon

a dragonair being lvl 55 means its not stronger than a lvl 100 perfect IV EV pokemon

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Doesnt disprove the fact that it was stronger than Pika

Yes, it doesn't disprove it, it proves Dragonair is stronger than Pika, lmao