The long awaited and great Pokemon upgrades

[XXKINGXX69]

a level 80-100 pokemon getting beaten by a lvl 13 is not one of those cases. Levels have been irrelevant in the anime since the episode you mentioned, stop using one of the most inconsistent seasons to justify a mechanic that didn't even work properly in the same episode you mentioned.
A lvl 50 beating a lvl 70? maybe. A lvl 13 won't beat a lvl 80 without game mechanics.


chapter 18

chapter 24

a dragonair being lvl 55 means its not stronger than a lvl 100 perfect IV EV pokemon

Ok, but those don't apply to Dragonair

Quantify how strong a level 100 perfect IV EV Pokemon is

 

[StekFence]

The fact that out hypothetical profile dragonair is perfectly iv and ev trained, kind suggests that an imperfectly trained one would be inferior.

 

[StekFence]

We don’t need to quantify it either, just scale it above.

 

[Arceus0x]

Strictly speaking, yeah, the only real reason why our pokemon profiles are wild is so that they don't depend on a trainer, but rather act naturally. If we're being honest, perfect IVs and EVs are onlyy achievable with intense training. Our profiles are supposed to be the cream of the crop, perfect pokemon without a trainer. This indeed suggests that a random dragonair who's level 55 or so isn't superior to a lvl 100 perfect IV EV dragonair

 

[StekFence]

It’s the same species, same learnset, the only difference is one has 45 less levels, and likely doesn’t have near The same amount of iv/ev training done. There’s no way it could out muscle at that point. Maybe it could win with a lucky dragon type move and assume the wild one misses, but that’s not indicative of their strength.

a level 80-100 pokemon getting beaten by a lvl 13 is not one of those cases. Levels have been irrelevant in the anime since the episode you mentioned, stop using one of the most inconsistent seasons to justify a mechanic that didn't even work properly in the same episode you mentioned.
A lvl 50 beating a lvl 70? maybe. A lvl 13 won't beat a lvl 80 without game mechanics.


chapter 18

chapter 24

a dragonair being lvl 55 means its not stronger than a lvl 100 perfect IV EV pokemon

 

[GodlyCharmander]

God and Steak makes sense to me.

The Lv 55 imperfectly trained Dragonair isn't superior to a Lv 100 Perfect Dragonair.

It's not even possible, because our Dragonite has full EVs, something not possible for your average Dragonair. (because "Perfect EVs" aren't a thing, it depends on their spread and moveset, and given how our Dragonite can learn every conceivable move...)

 

[GyroNutz]

It's not even possible, because our Dragonite has full EVs, something not possible for your average Dragonair. (because "Perfect EVs" aren't a thing, it depends on their spread and moveset, and given how our Dragonite can learn every conceivable move...)

Technically speaking, perfect EVs were possible in generations 1 and 2 where this manga was set. AVs (awakening values) are also a thing for trained Pokemon, introduced in LGPE.

 

[Chariot190]

Where is "levels determines one's strength" from??

That is LITERALLY a core concept of Pokemon, to further that, the manga actually gives the levels of every pokemon of the main dex holders at the start of each volume, specifically to catalog the growth of strength of the pokemon in question. Secondly, Yellow, the main character of the arc, has a gimmick where she can control the levels of Pokemon, which directly weakens and powers them up. A lv60 Dragonair one tapping a lv20 pika for example is perfectly fine and within the realm of reason.

As for the OP, I do think we shouldn't scale every base pokemon to Rhyhorn, at least, not 1:1, it does state it is immensely powerful, even if you want to say that is only for base pokemon, that still means in the realm of base pokemon, it's way stronger than the rest. If we actually scale, I'd say slap an "At most" onto the other base pokemon scaling to this feat, especially because it's like 10x higher than being proposed here.

 

[Arceus0x]

As for the OP, I do think we shouldn't scale every base pokemon to Rhyhorn, at least, not 1:1, it does state it is immensely powerful, even if you want to say that is only for base pokemon, that still means in the realm of base pokemon, it's way stronger than the rest. If we actually scale, I'd say slap an "At most" onto the other base pokemon scaling to this feat, especially because it's like 10x higher than being proposed here.

How about this then

At most Low 7-B | At least Low 7-B, likely 7-B | High 7-A

how does this sound? Base pokemon scale only to 1 megaton. 2nd stages to 2x the power of rhydon and above the dragonair feat to 7-B+

 

[Arceus0x]

A lv60 Dragonair one tapping a lv20 pika for example is perfectly fine and within the realm of reason.

to be fair pika was like in its 40s. Still, a lvl 55 hyperbeam to the face of a pokemon that isn't even evolved would one-shot it, Pika was never good with defense, only with offense

 

[Chariot190]

How about this then

At most Low 7-B | At least Low 7-B, likely 7-B | High 7-A

how does this sound? Base pokemon scale only to 1 megaton. 2nd stages to 2x the power of rhydon and above the dragonair feat to 7-B+

Better than nothing, though technically, the feat is V.Frag, unsure how you wanna go about that or if it's still scalable after the fact.

 

[Arceus0x]

Better than nothing, though technically, the feat is V.Frag, unsure how you wanna go about that or if it's still scalable after the fact.

wdym? Shattering a mountain without further context is frag. The minimum energy to fragment a mountain is 1.45 megatons

 

[Chariot190]

Destroying a mountain with further context is frag, they state it shatters the mountain though, shattering is v.frag.

 

[Arceus0x]

Destroying a mountain with further context is frag, they state it shatters the mountain though, shattering is v.frag.

shattering it to small pieces is vfrag. For all we know with the japanese translation it says "break" "destroy" "smash", meaning that it isn't exactly shatter and it is definitely not enough context for vfrag

 

[Chariot190]

Then check the raw, if it says those or doesn't specify we'd go with frag as the raw would supersede the eng text, but as it stands, shatter implies v.frag.

 

[Imaginym]

I feel like I say this a lot in Pokemon threads, but we shouldn't get caught up on how far apart the numbers are. Tier 4-A feats can be used to support a 3-C rating despite the tier being millions apart, because on the log scale they're in the same ballpark. We also use 7-B and 7-A feats/statements to support the verse's High 7-A+ feats for fully-evolved Pokemon.

Log scale?
Also, I think I'm with @Arceux0x about the Dragonair matter.

Uncalled for.

Agreed.

How about this then

At most Low 7-B | At least Low 7-B, likely 7-B | High 7-A

how does this sound? Base pokemon scale only to 1 megaton. 2nd stages to 2x the power of rhydon and above the dragonair feat to 7-B+

I don't mind this.

 

[Arceus0x]

Welp, it seems we've come to an agreement.
@GyroNutz (ik i can't ping you but you'll notice me mentioning you if you see your name blue)
Could you call over some people to check this out? Pretty sure we need like 2 mods to accept this so we can add it

 

[GyroNutz]

At most Low 7-B | At least Low 7-B, likely 7-B | High 7-A

I still feel like the 1 megaton thing is kinda arbitrary. Drifloon's feat is less than 2x Rhyhorn's, wouldn't it make sense to work that into the scaling? For instance, "At least High 7-C, likely Low 7-B".

Log scale?

Logarithmic, there's an illustration on the attack potency page.

Anyway, @QuasiYuri @ElixirBlue @SamanPatou @Starter_Pack @Shadowbokunohero, thoughts?

 

[Psychomaster35]

About time this happened! I agree with this.

 

[Popted2]

oh right, by the way good job Arceus

 

[Arceus0x]

I still feel like the 1 megaton thing is kinda arbitrary. Drifloon's feat is less than 2x Rhyhorn's, wouldn't it make sense to work that into the scaling? For instance, "At least High 7-C, likely Low 7-B".

i mean, what's the point? Not to mention, some issues could arise with the feat, i already told you which ones.
Like i said, there's no real reason not to scale them to Low 7-B, scaling them below is also arbitrary. Many pokemon are described as strong, however Rhyhorn isn't described as 'stronger' than everyone else, making the scaling you're suggesting an assumption

 

[Arceus0x]

oh right, by the way good job Arceus

thanks a lot!

 

[theultimate5105]

I agree with everything here

 

[Arceus0x]

About time this happened! I agree with this.

i was busy with a project. got a good grade for it and now i'm vibin', thus i had time to make this. It was originally planned earlier but dates changed and i decided to postpone it.
But hey, at least this isn't SMT where we wait for months for upgrades

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Would you guys be okay if Second stages were full-on 7-B? The Dragonair was Lv 54 at best, and had imperfect IVs/EVs, so its 7-B feat should scale to a perfect IV/EV Lv 100 Mid-Stage.

 

[Imaginym]

I still feel like the 1 megaton thing is kinda arbitrary. Drifloon's feat is less than 2x Rhyhorn's, wouldn't it make sense to work that into the scaling? For instance, "At least High 7-C, likely Low 7-B".

I would also be comfortable with this.

Logarithmic, there's an illustration on the attack potency page.

I'll need to remember to look into that.

i mean, what's the point? Not to mention, some issues could arise with the feat, i already told you which ones.

Plus the feat/calc needs to be moved from Amelia's comment in Cal's blog so it can be published to an actual blog so it can be evaluated.

Still, using an actual feat's yield as a benchmark instead of an arbitrary Baseline Point does seem reasonable, IMHO.
On the other hand Baseline would be a median between Drifloon & Rhyhorn.
But I doubt Drifloon was that casual using a powerful, self-destruction move like Explosion. So it was probably somewhat serious & near the upper end of feats for Pokemon of that stage.

Would you guys be okay if Second stages were full-on 7-B? The Dragonair was Lv 54 at best, and had imperfect IVs/EVs, so its 7-B feat should scale to a perfect IV/EV Lv 100 Mid-Stage.

If it wasn't fully trained, far from max level in a canon where levels are actually indicative of Power Level, then it would make sense that very powerful 2nd Stages could be above it, I think.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

If it wasn't fully untrained, far from max level in a canon where levels are actually indicative of Power Level, then it would make sense that very powerful 2nd Stages could be above it, I think.

I think you meant "fully trained", given the context of your message.

Either way, it's quite far from being as strong as a Lv 100 Dragonair with perfect IVs, and given how most 2nd stages scale to it, I'd think it's fair. 7-B seems fine, imo.

If you also agree with it, then I'll try gathering input from some other members.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I still feel like the 1 megaton thing is kinda arbitrary. Drifloon's feat is less than 2x Rhyhorn's, wouldn't it make sense to work that into the scaling? For instance, "At least High 7-C, likely Low 7-B".

About time this happened! I agree with this.

oh right, by the way good job Arceus

I agree with everything here

Would you guys be okay with 7-B 2nd stages given the points Arceus and I made above?

 

[Popted2]

Would you guys be okay with 7-B 2nd stages given the points Arceus and I made above?

how megatons they would be?

 

[Arceus0x]

how megatons they would be?

45.88 as it is in the calc. Though depending on people's suggestion we could upscale to 50

 

[Popted2]

45.88 as it is in the calc. Though depending on people's suggestion we could upscale to 50

okay i understand, i agree with you and Charmander

 

[Arceus0x]

okay i understand, i agree with you and Charmander

well i am neutral on the matter. If others consider this viable then i will too.

 

[GyroNutz]

i mean, what's the point? Not to mention, some issues could arise with the feat, i already told you which ones.

The stuff about the lack of destruction? It's still usable, the explosion method is meant for scenarios like that.

Like i said, there's no real reason not to scale them to Low 7-B, scaling them below is also arbitrary. Many pokemon are described as strong, however Rhyhorn isn't described as 'stronger' than everyone else, making the scaling you're suggesting an assumption

Huh? There's a feat at High 7-C+, that's not arbitrary at all, certainly not more arbitrary than selecting 1 megaton as a benchmark. Either we don't downscale or we downscale to Drifloon's very close feat. Though I don't see the problem in scaling any first stage Pokemon also described as 'strong' to Rhyhorn directly anyway.

Would you guys be okay if Second stages were full-on 7-B? The Dragonair was Lv 54 at best, and had imperfect IVs/EVs, so its 7-B feat should scale to a perfect IV/EV Lv 100 Mid-Stage.

I mean, does anything else back Dragonair being level 54 or below other than assuming it would have evolved into Dragonite otherwise? Some trainers prefer not to evolve their Pokemon when they get a chance, hell even Lance himself had two overlevelled Dragonairs in RBY (which is weirdly ironic). Granted that's an assumption as well, and otherwise there shouldn't be any issue really with scaling a no-name trainer's Dragonair to peak 2nd stages. I'm neutral either way, but it should be fine to scale 2nd stages to 7-B in some capacity at the very least.

 

[Imaginym]

Huh? There's a feat at High 7-C+, that's not arbitrary at all, certainly not more arbitrary than selecting 1 megaton as a benchmark. Either we don't downscale or we downscale to Drifloon's very close feat. Though I don't see the problem in scaling any first stage Pokemon also described as 'strong' to Rhyhorn directly anyway.

Scaling to Drifloon or Rhyhorn's feat or between them seems reasonable to me.

I mean, does anything else back Dragonair being level 54 or below other than assuming it would have evolved into Dragonite otherwise? Some trainers prefer not to evolve their Pokemon when they get a chance, hell even Lance himself had two overlevelled Dragonairs in RBY (which is weirdly ironic). Granted that's an assumption as well, and otherwise there shouldn't be any issue really with scaling a no-name trainer's Dragonair to peak 2nd stages. I'm neutral either way, but it should be fine to scale 2nd stages to 7-B in some capacity at the very least.

The Dragonair in question is from the manga. As has already been brought up in the thread, in the Manga's canon, preventing a Pokemon's Evolution requires a Pokedex, which this Dragonair's trainer(s) did not have.
Thus, if its level became high enough to evolve, that Dragonair's evolution COULDN'T have been prevented, because its trainers lacked the means to do so.

At least, that's how I understand it.

 

[theultimate5105]

Would you guys be okay with 7-B 2nd stages given the points Arceus and I made above?

Yes I do agree with it

 

[Arceus0x]

Alright then, how does this final version sound:

At least High 7-C, at most Low 7-B | 7-B | High 7-A

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The Dragonair in question is from the manga. As has already been brought up in the thread, in the Manga's canon, preventing a Pokemon's Evolution requires a Pokedex, which this Dragonair's trainer(s) did not have.
Thus, if its level became high enough to evolve, that Dragonair's evolution COULDN'T have been prevented, because its trainers lacked the means to do so.

At least, that's how I understand it.

That's correct, yes.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Alright then, how does this final version sound:

At least High 7-C, at most Low 7-B | 7-B | High 7-A

That sounds reasonable to me.

 

[GyroNutz]

The Dragonair in question is from the manga. As has already been brought up in the thread, in the Manga's canon, preventing a Pokemon's Evolution requires a Pokedex, which this Dragonair's trainer(s) did not have.
Thus, if its level became high enough to evolve, that Dragonair's evolution COULDN'T have been prevented, because its trainers lacked the means to do so.

Ah ok, that's fine then.

At least High 7-C, at most Low 7-B | 7-B | High 7-A

This looks good to me

 

[Psychomaster35]

Alright then, how does this final version sound:

At least High 7-C, at most Low 7-B | 7-B | High 7-A

Pretty good to me as well