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Alright, we’ve been told by @Ultima_Reality off site that this topic doesn’t intersect with the root thread, so it should be fine for these specific topics to be going on at the same time. keep in mind that the last thread didn’t get closed because it was rejected, it was closed due to the fact that Deagon thought it would intersect with the aforementioned thread.
also, we were told “these arguments have been addressed already” by supporters,but when Syn and I asked for either the link to this, or the pasted counter arguments, these same supporters failed to comply, so if any spectators see those same comments, please ignore if it’s not backed up with evidence.
this CRT serves to remove the direct scaling void shiki has to the root, giving her (with powers) tiering an Unknown rating, and removing all of the abilities/haxes and such that come as a consequence of this.
first, the actual reliability of her statements should be put into question.
Her wording when calling herself the Spiral actually uses a low certainty denotation (kamoshirenai). She does not “know” she is the Spiral; she guessed.
In Japanese, 〜かもしれない (kamoshirenai) is used to express uncertainty, similar to “may” or “might” in English. It implies that something could be true, but there is no concrete proof to back it up. For example, if you think you might have a cold, you would say: 風邪かもしれない (kaze kamoshirenai).
This suggests that the notion of her being the root, and thus being able to do anything, is highly uncertain and lacks concrete proof. This uncertainty extends to any other statement she (Void) makes in “Kara no Kyōkai”.
ill paste an excerpt I had with a certain user offsite:
”as a follow up to this, kamoshirenai is actually the lowest probability marker for these types of terms in japanese. (from highest to lowest uncertainty): かもしれない (kamoshirenai) / かもしれません (kamoshiremasen) / かも (kamo) (keep in mind that it has the particle for “not to know, but thats not exactly 100% true?) たぶん (tabun) (maybe,probably) おそらく (osoraku) (most likely,probably) きっと (kitto) (surely,definitely)”
Saber Shiki FGO Profile.
“Since her existence is inherently uncertain, even though she knows the full story behind many bizarre incidents, she does not get involved with them.”
It’s clear that Void lacks clarity about her own existence, and what abilities she does or doesn’t possess. Thus, her statements should take lesser priority when referring to her own power, and established lore and such should be prioritized instead.
Look at the very next sentence after the famous statement.
—But I can see much further than that. No, rather - I may well be that "swirl" myself.
けど、わたしはもっと深いところまで潜っていける。いえ───わたし自身が、その渦なのかもしれないわ
She was looking him right in the eye, but her tone of voice was insecure, uncertain. As if to let slip, between moments, an utterly incommunicable loneliness.
彼女は彼を見据えたまま不安定な声で続ける。
誰にも分からない、淋しい感情を吐露するように。
She’s insecure, and uncertain about the claim she’s made.
im not sure what the “modus operandi” for this site is in these scenarios, but it’s clear that taking a guess with no concrete evidence to back it up is unreliable, to say the least. and as we get further into the thread, even the low possibility of this being true will be stamped out.
next, we’ll be going over why a connection to the root doesn’t inherently make you a god tier within the verse, and definitely not “verse” soloing tier.
There are Divine Spirits with a high degree of connection to the root. This connection persists even after the Age of Gods (AOG), though the link the mages had to them has faded.
Lord El-Melloi II Case Files | Volume 9
“Magecraft today is different from magecraft in the Age of the Gods. That I can understand, at least somewhat. Because mages from the Age of the Gods are very close to the Root, they don't need to chase after it. I'm not sure why, but I can understand that as well. But what does all of this have to do with Heartless?"
"Good....First, the mages of the Age of the Gods do not aim for the Root because they don't have to. This is because the Root is quite close to them."
I had heard this explanation many times before. Modern mages chased after the Root, but ancient mages did not.
"Faker is an example."
By now, we were already familiar with her. She was a Servant who had been summoned from many millennia ago.
"The magecraft we know of is no more than the manipulation of formulas (TN: Alternatively, spells). It is only a trick to briefly fool the world. Their magecraft, on the other hand, directly connected with the Root and Divine Spirits- no, the gods themselves." My mentor said, confirming the difference between mages in modern times and in the Age of the Gods, which had only been hinted at until now.
"The revival of the Age of the Gods would be like a miracle to generations of mages. Reaching the Root would no longer be an unattainable dream. This new form of mystery would be far more efficient."
Modern magecraft began when the Age of the Gods ended. The goal of magecraft
became attempting to return to the past. Over two thousand years, mages had spent enough talent and resources to make someone pass out from astonishment, all so they could reach the Root, the shining ideal in the distance.
A mage from the Age of the Gods must find this act incredibly foolish. Reines had told me that not even a monster like Touko Aozaki stood a chance against Faker.
"Interesting." McDonell said, nodding twice and clasping together his hands. "A god that exists only for mages... if he succeeds in creating it, we will not have to seek the Root anymore. Isn't that a wonderful proposition?"
AOG mages are said to be “quite close” to the root by linking themselves to a Divine Spirit. “Quite” can mean to the utmost extent or extremely close, implying a high degree of connection. “Adventures of El-Melloi” states that this connection is direct, without intervening factors that would diminish it. Divine Spirits themselves have an even greater connection. The connection was so strong that AOG mages saw trying to reach the root as pointless. Yet, Divine Spirits like Euryale or Stheno are not claimed to have god-like power that can surpass the rest of the verse, as no one would take you seriously. many Divine spirits are also defeated over the course of the nasuverse, by characters with no form of connection or so with the root.
Also, what you can do with that connection is limited by your scale as a being. Void, being a human, would be lesser in scale than a divine spirit:
Lord El-Melloi II Case Files | Volume 10
Her perception expanded as she stabilized as a Divine Spirit. Now, connected to the Root, time no longer mattered. She was now able to search for a point in the past while remaining in the present; not because she could see the past, but because she could see everything in the instant that her divine Saint Graph was compressed back into the form of a Ghost Liner.
There were limits to her power, of course. The bounds of her vision were limited by her scale as a Divine Spirit, and Faker was only a newborn god. She could only calculate points that she had a connection to.
Also, Void Shiki’s claim of her powers originating from her nature as emptiness is sketchy.
For him as well, it must have been a nerve-racking task. Watching him, I asked, "Master, that thing..."
"Originally, Ergo was chosen as the one to consume the three gods precisely because, as a direct descendant of the Great King of Conquerors, he was born without any striking traits—he was an empty vessel (nothingness)."
I had heard that story before, in the Great Library of Alexandria undersea.
"But if controlling those gods is the goal, then what's needed is the opposite."
"The opposite of an empty vessel?"
"Memory and personality. When facing gods, what is always required of a person is strong willpower."
I understand the logic. Even when using magecraft, it ultimately depends on the person's character. Mysteries are born where there is strong willpower. And what creates that willpower is surely memory and personality.
"But then—"
"Of course, the saturation of memories progresses even further. It’s like pouring more water into a cup that has long since been full. Ergo must have known this. That's why he hadn't engaged in this kind of memory induction until now, waiting for a solution to the memory saturation."
This implies:
1. a person who is emptiness would have trouble with divine spirits
2. They are inherently less capable of wielding mysteries, as that requires personality and willpower.
Also, angra is literal emptiness/ a void. Yet he’s the weakest out of all the servants.
He says that everything (1) uses zero (the root) as an empty space to be born out of.
However, he doesn’t have the concept of 1. He managed to be born from zero, and stay as zero. Identical to Void Shiki. He even says that the Root is him as well.
But as anyone who’s read through hollow knows, he’s weak. INCREDIBLY weak.
Asagami Fujino and Kirie Fujou verbatim have the same origin as Void Shiki, yet they also do not live up to her supposed claims.
「二年前は失敗した。ヤツは正反対すぎた。必要だったのは同じ “起源”を持ちながら別れた者達だったのだ。そうだ、悦べ両儀式。あの二人はおまえの為だけに用意した生贄だ」
"Two years ago, I failed. That guy was too different. What was needed were those who shared the same 'origin' but were separated. Yes, Rejoice, Shiki Ryougi. Those two were prepared as sacrifices just for you.”
「同じ」 (おなじ, onaji) means "same."
「“起源”」 (きげん, kigen) means "'origin'"
Now, the antifeats.
Arcueid: Ergh, so what about you Ryougi? Do you like the world of Fate?
Shiki: Not in particular, Mikiya isn't there. Sure my wishes will be granted but don't wishes get granted normally?
Arcueid: Uh, um, how direct.
Saber: Well, that would be because you're God to be blunt. You wouldn't know the pain of those without.
Shiki: Don't make such a stupid analogy. I'm cute compared to that. The stupid woman over there doesn't have any limits. She can make a castle just by her imagination you know?
Arcueid: I've got a lot of restrictions too though. Oh, so it looks that way to you two, well, the most practical one is Saber though.
Source: , 28:50 mark.
All around Type-Moon is metafiction, so which personality of Ryougi is speaking at the moment is irrelevant, all 3 characters are fully aware of each others capabilities for the setting of the CD. They even reference her wish granting ability, and the fact that she’s considered God, which is an allegory of the thought that she’s nigh-omnipotent. Normal Ryougi doesn’t have the ability they’re referencing. The fact that Saber Artoria swinging her sword around is considered more practical than a supposed omnipotent/nigh-omnipotent is damning, and the fact that Arcueids casual feat of materializing the millennium castle is impressive. She even denies the notion of being anything close to a god, as she’s cute compared to that.
This is an official drama CD written by Nasu himself.
Shiki is affected by the Human Incineration Order:
(Nasu Interview, 2016)
Shiki is a unique case. She's in a liminal state—her body had burned, but not completely. She exists in a dream, hovering just before death. The Ogawa Apartments we see are part of this dream. During the event, Shiki comments on her condition, saying things like, "This is an awful nightmare," or "I can't wake up, so come with me." If she wakes up, she would die along with that time period. However, if she stays in the dream, she can avoid the destruction of humanity and return to her original world.
This information isn't particularly helpful here. Whether Shiki dies due to the human incineration threat (which is equivalent to FGO Ama, but weaker than CCC Ama), loses to Primate Murder, or both—it’s inevitable. The Ryougis of the KnK event are the originals trying to escape death. They haven't died and thus aren't servants in the lore, only in gameplay. Also, the independent manifestation skill contradicts her being a servant. This skill allows beings to summon themselves without a container. This skill is typically limited to Beasts (who are not servants) but is also seen in Merlin and Shiki. Merlin had the potential to become a Beast, so his case is explainable. Shiki, on the other hand, remains uncertain. Merlin is not a servant but uses independent manifestation to appear as one, confirming she’s not a servant based on this skill.
"But Void is said to be a mark of an omnipotent wish granter!"
This statement is not meant to be taken literally. It refers to the Holy Grail. Here's why:
"—Your wish, Kokutou. Tell me it. I can grant most human wishes. And Shiki seems to like you, so - what's mine by right is yours."
This implies:
1. There are wishes she cannot grant. "Most" can refer to as little as 51%, just over half.
2. Her abilities are limited to human-scale wishes; wishes of a higher scale are beyond her.
This is corroborated by an Archetype's line about the Grail in FGO:
"The Holy Grail, the golden chalice. I heard it was a valuable thing, but it's quite small. Is that enough to grant wishes by human standards? I thought it'd surely be like a crater or something similar. …No, I was talking about my own standards."
This aligns with statements where Ryougi calls Void’s abilities "cute" compared to an actual god, and expressed amazement over marble phantasm, saying Arcueid has no limits. It implies Archetype Earth's (Arcueid's) power to be superior. Furthermore, Arc reassures Ryougi she has restrictions, but from Ryougi and Artoria's perspectives, it might seem she doesn’t, asserting her superiority over both characters. Given a weaker character may view a markedly stronger one as almost without limits.
