The defect of the world should not exist (big skill addition BC part 1)

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Hello, I'm here to propose the following skills to Asta:

Non-existent physiology (type 3):
Acasuality (type 4):

Spoiler: Nonexistent physiology

Non-existent physiology (type 3, Aspects 1,3,5 vital energy/mana): Asta is a "defect of the world" that does not have mana, mana is what forms the soul and is at its origin. The soul is also the source of mind, life and magical power of a person.

Points that support this:

• asta can resist the absorption of vital energy from zagred and his mother because he has no mana
• Asta was unaffected by the negative mana that corrupts soul, mind and magical power when he entered Patry's mind.
• Mereoleona, upon reaching the status of pure mana, managed to become the ideal form of the human soul

Important note: the next skill only applies to the "pure power of antimagic" that only serves Asta after Devil's Bargain

Spoiler: Acasuality Type 4

Acasuality type 4: antimagic is the power that goes against the natural laws of the world

• Some of natural laws of BC are what Vanessa enoteca (rouge) can manipula which are casuality, probability and destiny
• Antimagic is the natural enemy of time

I agree :

I disagree: CloverDragon03

Neutral:

 

[Xinsignia1]

mana is what forms the soul and is at its origin.

Just wanted to address this because there might be some confusion (I also. Noted this in another thread)

When Lumiere first encountered Zagred as a disembodied soul, in the viz translation he described him as  "a soul WITH malicious mana" but that's a mistranslation that communicates the wrong idea.

The raws described Zagred as 邪悪なマナの魂: a soul OF malicious mana/malicious mana soul or "a wicked soul of mana" not a soul "with" malicious mana, which is again a mistranslation. Based on correct translation, it describes the nature/composition of the soul (or at least partially) which is mana based since it's the origin of one's soul.

 

[Arkenis]

So Asta doesn't have a soul? huh

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

So Asta doesn't have a soul? huh

He does but she behaves as if she doesn't exist within the verse because the soul is made of mana and Asta has no mana at all.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Just wanted to address this because there might be some confusion (I also. Noted this in another thread)

When Lumiere first encountered Zagred as a disembodied soul, in the viz translation he described him as  "as a soul WITH malicious mana" but that's a mistranslation that has the communicates the wrong idea.

The raws described Zagred as 邪悪なマナの魂: a soul OF malicious mana/malicious mana soul or "a wicked soul of mana" not a soul "with" malicious mana, which is again a mistranslation. Based on correct translation, it describes the nature/composition of the soul, which is mana based. So mana in this sense would be a source of one's life, mind and magical power.

Thanks for the clarification

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I don’t think souls are mana based. Mana is just made a part of the soul hence why the soul is the source of magic power.

Think of the soul like an atom. Mana is the electron, life is the proton, human spirit is the neutron.

Asta has the atom without an electron.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

I don’t think souls are mana based. Mana is just made a part of the soul hence why the soul is the source of magic power.

Think of the soul like an atom. Mana is the electron, life is the proton, human spirit is the neutron.

Asta has the atom without an electron.

The verse never hints at this but rather the opposite, besides the direct quote that the soul is made of mana already puts this logic completely against the wall
Edit : Mana is different from magical power

 

[Shiraito983]

disagree with this

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

disagree with this

OK, but what's the reason?

 

[Epsilon_R]

I don’t think souls are mana based. Mana is just made a part of the soul hence why the soul is the source of magic power.

Think of the soul like an atom. Mana is the electron, life is the proton, human spirit is the neutron.

Asta has the atom without an electron.

Eh, idk about that example.

Mana isn't part of the soul, it's either the soul itself (if we go by lumière's statement) or the source of it (going by Dryad's statement). Electrons are not the atom nor the origin of atoms.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The verse never hints at this but rather the opposite, besides the direct quote that the soul is made of mana already puts this logic completely against the wall
Edit : Mana is different from magical power

Lucius kinda explicitly explains it that way.

I know mana is different from magical power, the source of magic power is the soul as well as mana, and we know mana dwells in the soul according to one of the spade kingdom commanders. So it makes sense that mana is a constituent of the soul rather than the soul itself. And this makes logical sense because Asta needs a soul to be alive to begin with yet he is devoid of mana in every way.

Spoiler: Acasuality Type 4 Acasuality type 4: antimagic is the power that goes against the natural laws of the world

• the natural laws of BC are what Vanessa enoteca (rouge) can manipula which are casuality, probability and destiny

Also rogue works on Asta to protect him so this isn’t true. His causality is regular.

The best evidence for irregular acausality is Asta being in a time line that can’t be predetermined via time magic. But just because it’s the best evidence in comparison doesn’t mean it’s good evidence and would probably only qualify for resistance to precog which he already has.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Eh, idk about that example.

Mana isn't part of the soul, it's either the soul itself (if we go by lumière's statement) or the source of it (going by Dryad's statement). Electrons are not the atom nor the origin of atoms.

The soul can not be a soul without mana the same way an atom can not be an atom without electrons. Hence why Asta is the flaw of the world.

Using the correct translation provided by @Xinsignia1, he himself describes the mana as part of the composition of the soul albeit we differ in interpretation of what that means.

Occam’s razor sides with my interpretation as well due to the fact that the opposing arguments suggests that Asta inherently possesses mana which isn’t the case because he has inherently has a soul.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Anyways, nothing suggests Asta should get Type 3 NEP at all, much less for these aspects. Type 3 would require Asta to have Mana to begin with, which he obviously doesn't have

I also don't think it fits Aca 4 either

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah

 

[Epsilon_R]

Lucius kinda explicitly explains it that way.

I know mana is different from magical power, the source of magic power is the soul as well as mana, and we know mana dwells in the soul according to one of the spade kingdom commanders.

The commander never mentioned the soul, he was talking about life energy
Dryad straight up says that Mana is the origin of souls

And this makes logical sense because Asta needs a soul to be alive to begin with yet he is devoid of mana in every way.
The soul can not be a soul without mana the same way an atom can not be an atom without electrons. Hence why Asta is the flaw of the world.

That's, kinda the point of NEP, being devoid of something fundamental yet still exist

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The commander never mentioned the soul, he was talking about life energy
Dryad straight up says that Mana is the origin of souls

Misspoke but my main argument revolves around Lucius.

@Xinsignia1 could you please help me pull out the raws of Lucius’ statement in question? I want to verify something. Feel free to pitch in too.

That's, kinda the point of NEP, being devoid of something fundamental yet still exist

Well I mean, if you support the argument that the soul is mainly just mana then you should agree with NEP.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Also rogue works on Asta to protect him so this isn’t true. His causality is regular.

The best evidence for irregular acausality is Asta being in a time line that can’t be predetermined via time magic. But just because it’s the best evidence in comparison doesn’t mean it’s good evidence and would probably only qualify for resistance to precog which he already has.

It's for antimagic not for Asta, and I made the note clear that it only affects Devil Bargain and forms above that don't have this anti feat and are declared to nullify all magic in the verse

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Anyways, nothing suggests Asta should get Type 3 NEP at all, much less for these aspects. Type 3 would require Asta to have Mana to begin with, which he obviously doesn't have

No, Asta doesn't need mana to do this.

I also don't think it fits Aca 4 either

This is the most blatant reasoning one can have for type 4 acasuality, antimagic goes against natural laws, and causality, probability and destiny are some of these natural laws

 

[Xinsignia1]

Misspoke but my main argument revolves around Lucius.

@Xinsignia1 could you please help me pull out the raws of Lucius’ statement in question? I want to verify something. Feel free to pitch in too.



Well I mean, if you support the argument that the soul is mainly just mana then you should agree with NEP.

Here's the scan in question from Lucius So he states the soul is the source of one's life 生命, mind 精神 abd magical power 魔力

@Epsilon_R viz was cutting corners again but when Yami describes ki (which even Inanimate objects posses) he calls it Life energy" 「生体 エネルギー seitai enerugī」 but viz the Spade commander actually says mana dwells in "Life force" 「生命力 seimeiryoku」 not like energy.

Therefore mana dwells both in magical power (because magical power is generated in conjunction with ki) and it also dwells in life force which is separate from life energy in fact (inanimate objects don't have life force, but they for sure have ki/life energy)

Magical power" 「魔力 maryoku」 and "Life force" 「生命力 seimeiryoku」 both contain mana, and in a sense are different forms of it. Which would make makes sense in retrospect since mana is the origin of the soul, so logically it should govern the aspects of the soul, and would essentially be found in every aspect of their being. When Catherine started siphoning mana (not magical power) from the citizens in the royal capital invasion arc, they even began to age rapidly.

When Fuegoleon woke up and acquired Salamander he even stated that The spirit was pouring mana and life into him

And with that, I think it's possible mana manipulation could potentially be considered a form of chi manipulation (rather than ki) just wanted to get people thinking on that topic at least, not for this CRT. But future ones.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Bump

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Bump

 

[Epsilon_R]

Well I mean, if you support the argument that the soul is mainly just mana then you should agree with NEP.

My point wasn't really that the soul is Mana, but that Mana is fundamental to the soul. Basically I just don't quite agree with the atom example

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

My point wasn't really that the soul is Mana, but that Mana is fundamental to the soul. Basically I just don't quite agree with the atom example

So you agree with at least the type 5 aspect of nonexistent physiology ?

Other: These characters lack some other fundamental aspect that would be necessary for a normal being's existence or have a nonexistent one. Examples would include things like lacking a history. They are hence immune to abilities that target that respective aspect. Which aspect should be mentioned on the profile, together with any detail regarding what it makes them immune to.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Bump

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Bump

 

[Robo432343]

Arnold is correct here

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Here's the scan in question from Lucius So he states the soul is the source of one's life 生命, mind 精神 abd magical power 魔力

Well honestly I think my atom example works here considering life came from life force, everything mental including malice come from the mind and magical power comes from mana.

Therefore the soul MUST be made up of mana, life force and consciousness, similar to how an atom is only an atom because it has protons neutrons and electrons.

This symbiotic relationship makes conversions of life to mana (and thus magic power) possible. It makes mana have certain emotions like malice. It allows mana to dwell in life energy.

Thats just my two cents.

My point wasn't really that the soul is Mana, but that Mana is fundamental to the soul. Basically I just don't quite agree with the atom example

This doesn’t exactly go against my atom argument unless you ignore the fact that more than one thing can be fundamental to something.

Mana, life force, and consciousness are fundamental elements of the soul.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

So you agree with at least the type 5 aspect of nonexistent physiology ?

If you are giving Asta type 5 NPE for lacking mana which is fundamental for a human’s soul and hence existence.

Then I somewhat agree with “limited” rating as long as justification are clear.

Although is this really necessary. Ask staff for more input.

 

[Epsilon_R]

If you are giving Asta type 5 NPE for lacking mana which is fundamental for a human’s soul and hence existence.

Then I somewhat agree with “limited” rating as long as justification are clear.

Although is this really necessary. Ask staff for more input.

Assuming it qualifies for type 5, "Limited" would be unnecessary, type 5 is there for this specific reason.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Assuming it qualifies for type 5, "Limited" would be unnecessary, type 5 is there for this specific reason.

Fair enough.

Time to call staff.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

If you are giving Asta type 5 NPE for lacking mana which is fundamental for a human’s soul and hence existence.

Then I somewhat agree with “limited” rating as long as justification are clear.

Although is this really necessary. Ask staff for more input.

This is one of the proposals in the OP, but I disagree with its logic of the atom and symbiosis. verse treats mana and the soul as different aspects and a symbiotic relationship between the two does not exist, we know that affecting mana is somehow affecting the soul but the opposite is never shown, the NPI itself with mana is considered more difficult than the NPI with a soul that practically every character in the verse has even Asta who can't feel any kind of mana can clearly see souls, if the only counter argument is that "mana is just a small part of the soul like electrons to the atom" it is flawed because mana proved to be more fundamental than the soul and composing the same

 

[CloverDragon03]

Reading through what's been discussed thus far, I disagree with the OP

 

[Arnoldstone18]

This is one of the proposals in the OP, but I disagree with its logic of the atom and symbiosis. verse treats mana and the soul as different aspects and a symbiotic relationship between the two does not exist, we know that affecting mana is somehow affecting the soul but the opposite is never shown, the NPI itself with mana is considered more difficult than the NPI with a soul that practically every character in the verse has even Asta who can't feel any kind of mana can clearly see souls, if the only counter argument is that "mana is just a small part of the soul like electrons to the atom" it is flawed because mana proved to be more fundamental than the soul and composing the same

First of all, your scan doesn’t suggest they are treated differently at all.. just like an atom you can talk about its the subatomic parts. The scan basically says if you become acquainted with the soul you literally draw closer to mana. That literally suggests there’s a direct link between soul and mana just as there’s a direct link between an electron and atom.

“we know that affecting mana is somehow affecting the soul but the opposite is never shown”

Lucius is literally a soul magic user who affects the quality of a person’s mana by interacting with their souls. He is also literally purifying negative mana with his soul magic.

Thats the most blatant and obvious example of the opposite being shown…


The rest of what you said doesn’t seem important enough to address, considering I’ve tackled your main claim. Something being more fundamental than the other thing isn’t an argument against anything. even your NPI argument is flawed considering both souls and mana can be seen or not seen on a case by case basis e.g. purely mana based objects are visible to Asta even though he can’t feel it.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Bump


Edit : I updated the OP

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Bump

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Disagree fra

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Disagree fra

OK, but what are the reasons?

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

OK, but what are the reasons?

FRA is pretty self explanatory but to go into more detail

On the point of Acausality I disagree because he was affected by vanessa's magic in the witch's forest and some other arcs after that which would inherently means he doesn't have acausality (In general I think the acausality type 4 standards are way too lax as they are anyway but that's besides the point and doesn't influence my decision here)

On the point of NEP i disagree for the reasons outlined by Arnold, as the discussion continues that might change but for now I find the arguments in favor of NEP for the soul unconvincing

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

On the point of Acausality I disagree because he was affected by vanessa's magic in the witch's forest and some other arcs after that which would inherently means he doesn't have acausality (In general I think the acausality type 4 standards are way too lax as they are anyway but that's besides the point and doesn't influence my decision here)

the acausality is for the pure power of antimagic that Asta only got after his demonic contract, the version of Asta that was affected used a limited form of antimagic, Lucius' statements came after the demonic contract before that he was not even aware of the existence of Asta, and in the verse there are other powers/magic that can go against natural laws, such as Morris, who is not affected by Rouge

Morris profile already has resistance to law manipulation, causality manipulation, fate manipulation and probability as well.

On the point of NEP i disagree for the reasons outlined by Arnold, as the discussion continues that might change but for now I find the arguments in favor of NEP for the soul unconvincing

Before I confess that it was just my speculation but with the last chapter it makes it clear that mana >/=alma the scans on Mereoleona show this, but we can expect Arnald to comment if he objects further

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

.

What is your opinion on this topic now, after chapter 371?