The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Unfortunately I'll be repeating myself here, but it's a case by case basis. We don't plan on laying out hyper-specific criteria that will be followed in every case, it'll be by community/staff consensus like any CRT is. There are a lot of factors that play into decisions like that which aren't objective, and where good reason and common sense need to be applied.

That's understandable, but I feel like in order for such a massive change like this to be accepted, having an idea of how important things will be treated is vital. Having some ground rules for at least what doesn't qualify would be helpful for avoiding revisions based on such logic.

No plans at this time to split it, but perhaps at some point a more thorough look can be given at certain Pre-Crisis profiles to see if they are tiered based on this kind of thing. I'm not super well read up on Pre-Crisis, but from what I can tell, not that many of the characters scale to a cosmology either way.

Well, I'm fairly sure most high tiered characters are scaled off of Pre-Crisis Superman's feat of bringing back all realities, and Pre-Crisis Mxy is scaled off affecting the Multiverse, so I think a good chunk of characters actually do. Pre-Crisis also did have some cosmology stories, such as Kirby's original Fourth World run.

If this is more suited for following threads discussing implementing this revision, I'll drop it for now.

It'll be the same as the way we assess whether or not a special version of a character needs their own key, or whether or not a character is significant enough to get a key. Again, nothing specific like "8 issues and you're in" but it won't be significantly different from comparable processes that already occur on the site.

Makes sense to me, thanks for clarifying.

Good question, I'm not really sure. It would depend on what the guidebook says and how someone is trying to use that information for scaling and why.

What do you mean exactly?
If I may give an example, if a guide/website/etc just gives a general statement about the character that doesn't contradict any interpretation of them, could it be attributed to all of them? Or would we only use it if it implies which version of the character it's talking about?

Off the top of my head, I don't know of any significant DC characters who are tiered based on guidebook information.

I don't think very many characters are scaled off guides either, but I have seen them brought up in threads, so it's probably worth discussing.

 

[Deagonx]

That's understandable, but I feel like in order for such a massive change like this to be accepted, having an idea of how important things will be treated is vital. Having some ground rules for at least what doesn't qualify would be helpful for avoiding revisions based on such logic.

I don't disagree, but that is sort of a separate matter. There are a lot of things within the wiki that are not nailed down with that level of specificity, working just by a generic democratic approach case to case. It's a worthwhile ideal, but I can't really speak for everyone who would be involved in making a decision like that, and I know that we aren't currently trying to create a standardized approach. But definitely if you feel strongly about it, it'd be helpful for you to brainstorm what you'd want that to look like, and start another discussion about possibly making an official wiki page, and the fine details could be discussed there.

Well, I'm fairly sure most high tiered characters are scaled off of Pre-Crisis Superman's feat of bringing back all realities, and Pre-Crisis Mxy is scaled off affecting the Multiverse, so I think a good chunk of characters actually do. Pre-Crisis also did have some cosmology stories, such as Kirby's original Fourth World run.

Okay. Well perhaps that's a conversation worth having. Once the basic split cosmology framework is instituted, later discussions will be had about where specific cosmologies warrant their own page, and perhaps some lines for Pre-Crisis can be researched.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

If most of my questions are better suited for a following thread, I'll stop discussing them here, just notify me when the next one goes up.

 

[Deagonx]

It's important to reiterate that this thread is meant to be a venue to discuss the merit of a split cosmology, and we are open to engaging with dissenting opinions and perspectives on the matter. However, it's not clear how we're supposed to respond to things like "You're only doing this because you hate Superman" and engage with that as a meaningful criticism of the argument we're making.

There have been continued insinuations that the restrictions are unfairly tilted against the opposition, but even now that regular users are being permitted to offer input, none of them have expressed disagreement. So who is the opposition? What is their argument? We didn't assassinate people who disagree with us, we justifiably wanted to avoid an avalanche of low-effort "you just hate DC" comments that help nobody and serve no purpose.

Moreover, I think Sir_Ovens made a very important point that we all have to keep in mind:

I guess the point boils down to this: Are you splitting the verse because that is the inherent nature of the material/cosmology? Or are you splitting the verse because Superman being tier 1 is scarily consistent and we can't have that because reasons.

I'll say it like it is, if you're working on the basis of that latter that's bad faith.

To those grumbling about the split but who won't actually explain why you disagree: Are you against splitting the verse because of the material/cosmology? Or are you against splitting the verse because it will result in a downgrade for a character you like, and we can't have that because reasons? Or because of a personal grudge against Ant?

If you're working on the basis of the latter, that's bad faith.

If you're working on the basis of the former, please, feel free to share your reasoning so we can have a dialogue about it. If you refuse to do that, but complain that the game was somehow rigged, that's probably because you're in the latter camp.

 

[Antvasima]

Deagonx makes sense to me above, as I have been told that there have been quite a lot of toxic ad hominem attacks regarding this project via Discord, which is unwarranted and inappropriate, as well as unprofessional if staff members have been involved.

 

[Abstractions]

Having no particular involvement in comics scaling, I urge those skeptical to read the blog and communicate your qualms in a fashion that is not incendiary as to prevent the discussion from spiraling out of control. If you don't feel like a dialogue is actually what's being encouraged here then allow me to do the one thing I can do and grant you the ability to respond should you have something constructive to add.

I'd like to believe that nobody here wants an echo chamber, because our community wouldn't get anywhere with such.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, they need to ask for permission by clarifying what they want to do first, so we do not get a tsunami of spam, derailing, and toxicity.

 

[Abstractions]

Well, they need to ask for permission by clarifying what they want to do first, so we do not get a tsunami of spam, derailing, and toxicity.

I don't think you need to add asterisks to what is essentially what I just said, but yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. My apologies if I misunderstood.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

So from what I'm seeing, the cosmo split would mostly affect abstracts. The cosmics and below would still be split into eras? I'm fine with that.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, they would continue to be split into official reboots of the characters basically, such as Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis Superman.

 

[Deagonx]

So from what I'm seeing, the cosmo split would mostly affect abstracts. The cosmics and below would still be split into eras? I'm fine with that.

Generally speaking, yes, but if their tier is based on scaling them to the entire cosmology then the split would still be relevant. This isn't super common, but it does happen from time to time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I guess the point boils down to this: Are you splitting the verse because that is the inherent nature of the material/cosmology? Or are you splitting the verse because Superman being tier 1 is scarily consistent and we can't have that because reasons.

The biggest point is that DC's cosmology is objectively contradictory and cannot work with other sets of itself. As detailed at the end of the blog, every large set of cosmologies have contradictions that cannot be reconciled or handwaved away. They're being split because assuming they can coexist is ignoring the material.

But to answer your other point, if something like SCP is so contradictory in its cosmology that it cannot coexist with itself, then yeah it would also need to be split. Running a joint composite cosmology that isn't internally semi-consistent just shouldn't be done.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the support, Qawsedf234.

 

[PrinceStories]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Antvasima/DC_Comics_Cosmology_Revision_Project

I Recommend Animalman Cosmology to be combined with Morrison's Cosmology

 

[Theglassman12]

I have a question regarding the split for the main heroes who have specific versions, how exactly is the split going to handle them? Like if say Superman Post Crisis ends up doing feats in Morrison and Vertigo’s storylines would that just be separate keys or separate pages?

 

[Deagonx]

Like if say Superman Post Crisis ends up doing feats in Morrison and Vertigo’s storylines would that just be separate keys or separate pages

Probably keys, but I imagine there won't be very much of that happening if at any. It's rare for a character like that to have a feat which scales to a cosmology, let alone multiple distinct cosmologies given the separations.

 

[Theglassman12]

Ok, as for the cosmologies being split I’m fine with that, though if there’s any arguments against the split I wouldn’t mind hearing the other side if there are any arguments against the cosmologies.

 

[Planck69]

@Sen @Robo

Stop derailing the thread. You will get only this warning.

 

[Firestorm808]

So this is downgrade for dc comic right

Tier-related topics will be discussed in the next thread.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I mean like 95% of ppl here agree with the split so what is everyone doing-

your posts are extremely derailing, nothing you have said here is constructive or added anything to the thread.
Please stop, even if 95% agrees, this is a major thread and has not even been open for 3 days

 

[NHTkenshin2]

This is arguably the biggest thread in VSBW history we are definitely not jumping to conclusions now

 

[Antvasima]

will this discuss Tier cosmology?

No we leave that for later threads. This one is just for discussing the split itself.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I removed several derailing posts here. Let's try to stay on topic please.

 

[PrinceStories]

No we leave that for later threads. This one is just for discussing the split itself.

Tier discussion will be in the next thread?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Tier discussion will be in the next thread?

Yes.

 

[Antvasima]

We would greatly appreciate further staff input here.

If knowledgeable regular members have something genuinely important to say (that isn't toxic or ad hominem personal attacks), I also think that they can post it here, given that this thread did not turn nearly as spammy/overactive as I thought it would.

 

[PrinceStories]

Yes.

would it address every Tier of DC cosmology?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we have only tried to figure out the tiering mentioned so far in our blog post, but I think that covers all of our profile pages for DC Comics' cosmic entities.

Anyway, let's stop derailing here please.

 

[PrinceStories]

Well, we have only tried to figure out the tiering mentioned so far in our blog post, but I think that covers all of our profile pages for DC Comics' cosmic entities.

Anyway, let's stop derailing here please.

OK,does this thread deserve to be closed and moved to the Tier discussion thread?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we likely need to wait a while longer, even though the cosmology split itself seems to have been accepted so far.

 

[PrinceStories]

I think that we likely need to wait a while longer, even though the cosmology split itself seems to have been accepted so far.

Alright

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I do not accept.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do not accept.

It is fine to have opinions, but it's preferable if you tried to remain constructive instead throwing accusations around or even simply saying a no context "I disagree" statements being your only posts.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, you need to elaborate more than that.

 

[KLOL506]

I do not accept.

Not to be rude but Matt, you really need to stop with this. Either contribute properly to the conversation or not at all. Comments like these do not help the situation or the thread at all.

 

[Elizio33]

I do not accept.

Can you explain why you don't accept the split?

 

[KLOL506]

Can you explain why you don't accept the split?

Ignore him, he's always like this in a lot of threads these days.

 

[KLOL506]

Not to be rude but Matt, you really need to stop with this. Either contribute properly to the conversation or not at all. Comments like these do not help the situation or the thread at all.

Worse still, I have seen this pattern of yours over multitudes of threads and it's getting real tiresome. If you have nothing to contribute further to the discussion at all in any thread from here on out, I'd suggest you pull out of the threads altogether instead of further adding fuel to the fire in this manner.