The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

[SubaruN2000]

This character sees a reality as immaterial and insubstantial from their higher perspective

How would this requirement work when there's an R>F between 2 non-physical worlds? Like some abstract, non physical world viewing another non-physical world as fiction?

Also would it be considered an anti feat if theres a higher world that views the lower as imaginary and unreal, but some other distinct imaginary, unreal, and nonexistent things are not portrayed as not lesser than the higher world entities? Like a higher world views some lesser world as a fictional story but some of the (unrelated to the previously mentioned fictional story) dreams/imagined thoughts the characters in the higher world have are not lesser than them and the other residents of the higher world?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

How would this requirement work when there's an R>F between 2 non-physical worlds? Like some abstract, non physical world viewing another non-physical world as fiction?

You can stack this stuff just fine for whatever analogs exist in higher layers.

Also would it be considered an anti feat if theres a higher world that views the lower as imaginary and unreal, but some other distinct imaginary, unreal, and nonexistent things are not portrayed as not lesser than the higher world entities? Like a higher world views some lesser world as a fictional story but some of the (unrelated to the previously mentioned fictional story) dreams/imagined thoughts the characters in the higher world have are not lesser than them and the other residents of the higher world?

Don't see why that would be an anti-feat. Sounds like the verse is just saying there's multiple kinds of imaginary structures.

 

[SubaruN2000]

Sounds like the verse is just saying there's multiple kinds of imaginary structures.

So in a verse with R>F, some imaginary/nonexistent stuff can not be lesser than the higher worlds while others are lesser without any issues to ontological superiority? Would it be like a "some unreal/nonexistent natures are lesser than reality/existence while others aren't" type of thing?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So in a verse with R>F, some imaginary/nonexistent stuff can not be lesser than the higher worlds while others are lesser without any issues to ontological superiority? Would it be like a "some unreal/nonexistent natures are lesser than reality/existence while others aren't" type of thing?

Could be, yeah. Could also be a "Fictional works are ontologically lesser realities, but dreams/thoughts aren't." It's pretty weirdly specific, but has no problems to it, in principle.

 

[Isaiah_ZaMangaka]

Have there been any instances where a real being dwells in a fiction world by operating in a physical shell (like his true form is kinda sealed inside it if that makes sense)?

 

[FaxNovuuuuu]

With the new tiering system will the Elder Scrolls lose tier 0?

Lol no

 

[ByAsura]

That sounds like it'd be just Low 1-C, yeah

The final thing (I promise) I wanted to talk about was the Vortex on an omniversal scale.

There's 3 types of universes in the main-line Doctor Who multiverse.

• Paraward: An unknown (likely infinite) number of universes that diverged from N-Space before or after the Time Lords' era. Their physical laws are identical, but they didn't diverge from probabilities/possibilities, so they're considered 'extreme alternatives'.
• Altward: Basic alternate realities diverged from probabilities/possibilities, and they expand infinitely/exponentially. The sheer number of universes is so large that just a certain category of probability bundles includes several high order infinities of universes.
• Otherward: The Doctor Who multiverse is explicitly a Tegmark Type IV, with infinite universes based on utterly unique physical laws. For example, there are universes composed totally of alien energies, and where effect can happen before cause.

Plus, realities identical to N-Space (paraward/altward) have their own adjacent Hyperspaces, Subspaces (an 'abstract' polydimensional reality with warped laws of physics that render distance meaningless), Null-Spaces (a continuum that exists 'nowhere', meaning it effectively doesn't exist), etc.

Then there's an omniverse with numerous other multiverses that each have their own rules.

Each universe in the omniverse has its own version of the Vortex that varies depending on local physical laws, and they culminate in a super-sized version so large that an interstitial tear in its axis alone can breech a number of multiverses. It keeps The Doctor's multiverse in check, and, where something bad to happen, the multiverse could even fall into this Vortex and just vanish.

Assuming N-Space is 1-B and laws of set theory, what level of transcendence could I get for the Omniversal Vortex?

 

[Agnaa]

What do you mean by "The Doctor Who multiverse"? You say it's explicitly Tegmark Type IV, but then say that there's extra spaces, and an omniverse with numerous multiverses. Are those constructs separate from the Tegmark Type IV multiverse?

 

[ByAsura]

Sorry I didn't make that more clear.

The individual multiverse that The Doctor and his companions/most of their adventures are limited to, hence why I said 'main-line' multiverse.

The 'extra spaces' are each adjacent to the universes of The Doctor's multiverse, like how most universes in the Supernatural multiverse have their own versions of Heaven and Hell. They're not Otherward universes, in and of themselves.

For example, Earth-1 in Doctor Who would have Hyperspace-1, while Earth-9 would have Hyperspace-9.

The Omniverse isn't part of the Tegmark realities. Like I said, the Altward, Paraward, and Otherward universes are part of the main-line Doctor Who multiverse, while different multiverses have their own sets of rules.

 

[Agnaa]

The 'extra spaces' are each adjacent to the universes of The Doctor's multiverse, like how most universes in the Supernatural multiverse have their own versions of Heaven and Hell. They're not Otherward universes, in and of themselves.

For example, Earth-1 in Doctor Who would have Hyperspace-1, while Earth-9 would have Hyperspace-9.

So to be crystal clear, does that mean that those extra spaces are outside of that main-line mutlverse?

 

[ByAsura]

Ok, I'll be as crystal clear as I can.

The extra spaces exist inside the main-line multiverse, not outside. In fact, they exist alongside normal universes, rather than being divergent universes.

Think of the universes in the main-line multiverse as being suns that have their own types of classifications (in this case, Otherward, Altward, and Paraward, rather than White Dwarf, Red Giant, or Yellow Dwarf). The 'extra spaces' are planets that orbit these suns.

So, for example, Sun-1001 has Mercury-1001, while Sun-100001 has its own Mercury-100001.

 

[Agnaa]

Then, the main thing that I see of relevance, is that there's supposedly a Type IV multiverse, and then there's other multiverses alongside it that aren't transcendent, contradicting the idea of it being an actual Type IV multiverse, requiring us to instead index it based on the size of the multiverses, with however many constructs such as dimensions it contains.

I assume you have more evidence when it comes to that, but right now it seems vaguely 2-A.

 

[Hasty12345]

From what I can gather, the source that claims the multiverse is a type IV makes no mention of anything that's not called a "universe", I guess it just depends on if you think the statement/paragraph making the claim is asserting the whole setting is a type 4 or if it's just not conclusive enough.

 

[ByAsura]

Aagna, you've got the entirely wrong idea.

I'm not trying to offend you, but I suggest that you re-read what I wrote because I never so much as implied that multiverses exist alongside each other, just that the adjacent dimensions exist alongside universes; I explicitly said the multiverses are separate and have their own rules.

 

[Agnaa]

Alright, so looking back, bolding the parts that stand out as important to me:

The final thing (I promise) I wanted to talk about was the Vortex on an omniversal scale.

There's 3 types of universes in the main-line Doctor Who multiverse.

• Paraward: An unknown (likely infinite) number of universes that diverged from N-Space before or after the Time Lords' era. Their physical laws are identical, but they didn't diverge from probabilities/possibilities, so they're considered 'extreme alternatives'.
• Altward: Basic alternate realities diverged from probabilities/possibilities, and they expand infinitely/exponentially. The sheer number of universes is so large that just a certain category of probability bundles includes several high order infinities of universes.
• Otherward: The Doctor Who multiverse is explicitly a Tegmark Type IV, with infinite universes based on utterly unique physical laws. For example, there are universes composed totally of alien energies, and where effect can happen before cause.

Plus, realities identical to N-Space (paraward/altward) have their own adjacent Hyperspaces, Subspaces (an 'abstract' polydimensional reality with warped laws of physics that render distance meaningless), Null-Spaces (a continuum that exists 'nowhere', meaning it effectively doesn't exist), etc.

Then there's an omniverse with numerous other multiverses that each have their own rules.

Each universe in the omniverse has its own version of the Vortex that varies depending on local physical laws, and they culminate in a super-sized version so large that an interstitial tear in its axis alone can breech a number of multiverses. It keeps The Doctor's multiverse in check, and, where something bad to happen, the multiverse could even fall into this Vortex and just vanish.

Assuming N-Space is 1-B and laws of set theory, what level of transcendence could I get for the Omniversal Vortex?

The main Doctor Who multiverse has a bunch of constructs, including a load of universes, alternate realities that include high order infinities of universes, and a bunch of other weird adjacent realms. In whole, this comprises a Tegmark Type IV multiverse.

Outside of this, there's an omniverse with numerous other multiverses.

I was a bit unsure whether the "omniverse" was referring to that Tegmark Type IV multiverse, but based on your next message....

Sorry I didn't make that more clear.

The individual multiverse that The Doctor and his companions/most of their adventures are limited to, hence why I said 'main-line' multiverse.

The 'extra spaces' are each adjacent to the universes of The Doctor's multiverse, like how most universes in the Supernatural multiverse have their own versions of Heaven and Hell. They're not Otherward universes, in and of themselves.

For example, Earth-1 in Doctor Who would have Hyperspace-1, while Earth-9 would have Hyperspace-9.

The Omniverse isn't part of the Tegmark realities. Like I said, the Altward, Paraward, and Otherward universes are part of the main-line Doctor Who multiverse, while different multiverses have their own sets of rules.

Clarified that the "main-line multiverse", said to be a Type IV multiverse, doesn't have the Omniverse as a part of it.

I was still a bit unsure about what exactly those extra spaces were, but you went on to clarify....

Ok, I'll be as crystal clear as I can.

The extra spaces exist inside the main-line multiverse, not outside. In fact, they exist alongside normal universes, rather than being divergent universes.

Think of the universes in the main-line multiverse as being suns that have their own types of classifications (in this case, Otherward, Altward, and Paraward, rather than White Dwarf, Red Giant, or Yellow Dwarf). The 'extra spaces' are planets that orbit these suns.

So, for example, Sun-1001 has Mercury-1001, while Sun-100001 has its own Mercury-100001.

That those spaces exist inside the main-line multiverse.

Now, going from that, back to my latest message and your response:

Then, the main thing that I see of relevance, is that there's supposedly a Type IV multiverse, and then there's other multiverses alongside it that aren't transcendent, contradicting the idea of it being an actual Type IV multiverse, requiring us to instead index it based on the size of the multiverses, with however many constructs such as dimensions it contains.

I assume you have more evidence when it comes to that, but right now it seems vaguely 2-A.

Aagna, you've got the entirely wrong idea.

I'm not trying to offend you, but I suggest that you re-read what I wrote because I never so much as implied that multiverses exist alongside each other, just that the adjacent dimensions exist alongside universes; I explicitly said the multiverses are separate and have their own rules.

I used "alongside" to mean "don't see the main-line multiverse as fiction". Frankly, the difference between the terms "alongside" and "separate" are irrelevant to the point being made here, which is that since they exist on the same ontological level, having extra spatial things outside of the "Type IV Multiverse" proves that it's not actually a Type IV multiverse.

Unless I was horrendously misunderstanding your earlier statements about the nature of the omniverse.

 

[ByAsura]

If you're wondering about seeing multiverses as fiction, they don't view each other as fiction—they really don't even view each other, outside of a few constructs and beings—but parts of the main-line multiverse see other parts of its own multiverse as fiction/metafictional in one of the same sources where it's described as a Type IV.

• “… Tegmark’s classification of multiple universes shows that there are planes of existence beyond our cosmological horizon, with different physical laws, different languages, rules...” the big physicist was in full flow. “Oh, there are? Of course there are. And who’s to say that fictional creations in one universe can’t be real in another? No child over six, anyway.” “One day you’ll learn to think–” “One day you’ll come up with a better description of current reality than a… a… series of universal planes collapsing in a… meta-fictional Big Crunch–”
• As if this wasn’t enough to prove the big physicist’s theory of collapsing meta-fictional universes, we also stumbled across a group of scraggle-haired, loincloth-garbed men whose names we ascertained much later were Tarn Son of the Tiger; Morgo the Mighty; Morgyn the Mighty (no relation); Jacare of the Jungle; and Zon the Ape-man; all clustered in a manly knot of muscle around a face I recognised as the most famous Jungle Lord of all, Tarzan of the Apes.

So, it's an internal thing, not an external thing.

I didn't think to mention reality-fiction oriented transcendence before, or realise that you were talking about it, because I was more just talking about the basic definition of a non-formal multiverse.

 

[Zeifyl]

So, since the staff thread has been concluded... What characters are guaranteed to be affected by this?

EDIT: Realised I wrote "Confused" instead of "Concluded" at first. I blame my "Just Woke Up" brain.

 

[Genericstickman]

Jojo getting ready to have a Low 1-C with no profile turn into a 1-A with still no profile

 

[Iiliminal]

is irrelevant speed coming back?

 

[Phoenks]

is irrelevant speed coming back?

It should, as the concept of speed no longer applies at all once you hit 1-A in the suggested system.

I don't know how exactly it will come back though.

 

[Elyartaker]

Hey everyone I had several questions.
1-can all types of BDE grant R>F to become outerversal?
2-is absolute infinity now accepted in vsbw to be low outer?
3-how are my SCP stocks effected lol

 

[Agnaa]

Hey everyone I had several questions.
1-can all types of BDE grant R>F to become outerversal?
2-is absolute infinity now accepted in vsbw to be low outer?
3-how are my SCP stocks effected lol

1. I don't really understand what you mean, so to answer the two questions you might be asking:
   • "Does BDE plus an R>F difference result in a character being 1-A?" To which the answer is yes. Really, just any accepted R>F difference makes a character 1-A.
   • "Does BDE automatically grant an R>F difference?" To which the answer is no.
2. Yes.
3. Down somewhat, but still massively profitable if you bought them four years ago.

 

[Trigger]

DT went through thus Ultima proposal is accepted.

Damn, I was away for less than a day and y'all came to a conclusion? Bro! Well the following week's(months?) Are gonna be crazy. All em Tiktok junkies are gonna go crazy. Ultima gonna be busy as hell.

It's a valid question. There are tons of examples of fictional character's messing with their higher realities. Relegating that to simple a "anti-feat" for R>F, does an unfair disservice to those characters.

Sorry fam, I just thought it was real funny. I genuinely meant no disrespect. I apologize man.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Damn, Divine Comedy God profile is peak.

 

[Elyartaker]

1. I don't really understand what you mean, so to answer the two questions you might be asking:
   • "Does BDE plus an R>F difference result in a character being 1-A?" To which the answer is yes. Really, just any accepted R>F difference makes a character 1-A.
   • "Does BDE automatically grant an R>F difference?" To which the answer is no.
2. Yes.
3. Down somewhat, but still massively profitable if you bought them four years ago.

I understand.
thank you so much

 

[Excellence616]

Damn, Divine Comedy God profile is peak.

Link?

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Link?

Dunno lol, I've been searching in both wiki and Google but resulted in nothing.

Must be a draft or something.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I only found juan

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I only found juan

That's racist.

 

[Bobsican]

Power creep

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

? 3812 is keeping his tier.

Probably, but it has a line comparing dimensional differences to reality-fiction differences.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

More like the difference between "This ability is something imbued into the fictional reality by the power of a higher being, and which is not co-equal to, but suffuses and empowers, certain substances in that reality" and "The fictional reality somehow, entirely on its own terms, developed the ability to interact with a higher ontological layer, without any input whatsoever from higher things."

Both realities are created by the higher being so both abilities are both inherently imbued by the higher being.

Just one is heavy handed deus ex machina and the other is an emergent property in the setting. It is essentially saying, if a higher reality creates a lower reality that has emergent properties that the higher reality didn't foresee, then they aren't truly a higher being. Which to me is artificially limiting the type of lower reality a higher reality can make.

Take this thought experiment: What if a higher reality creates both of these worlds, how would the scaling go?

Of course, Looney Tunes is not something I reject from R>F solely because of "People from the lower reality unexplainedly interact with their animators." I simply also argue that "This character sees a reality as immaterial and insubstantial from their higher perspective" doesn't follow from purely visual depictions whatsoever, and needs to be separately elaborated.

That's highly subjective and not an objective benchmark to compare fictional works to. Cause I would say Bugs Bunny in the artist chair does just that.

Not really the same case, no, since a higher layer being ontologically higher requires a structural discontinuity between the two. Interaction-based anti-feats are largely problematic because they imply that there is, in fact, continuity to be found between the realms.

Meanwhile, how fast FTL is doesn't depend on showcases of interactions with slower things. It's something whose minimum value (2c) we already know a priori, rather than inferring it a posteriori by observing how it acts. So it's a pretty bad analogy to tack on here.

I completely disagree here. There is always continuity between two realms. One-way continuity is necessary for the Higher Reality to create and interact with the lower reality, but two-way isn't allowed for the wiki's standards. Information has to move from one realm to other, otherwise, higher reality isn't actually higher and something else unseen is doing all the work. (ex a writer creates a story, the unseen force takes the information for the story and creates a world with it, then we claim the author is higher realty, because they created a lower reality. From our perspective the writer created the story and the world just appeared)

The FTL example fits perfectly, because in these stories, some event will occur to prevent anything from reaching FTL speed, whether its, objecting turning into pure energy and then moving at the speed of light, an object constantly approaching the speed of light and never reaching, something exotic happening to the object the instant the boundary of light speed is crossed, such as time travel, time reversing, leaving spacetime etc.

You can argue that if you place a FTL character form another work into this story, they'd be able to go faster than light without these events occurring because that is their nature OR you can argue that these events will occur because the setting will deny their nature.

If my understanding is correct, you are, that if we place a character how by nature can interact with higher realities into a story where lower realities cannot do such a thing by nature, the setting of the that story will deny the character's nature?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Sorry fam, I just thought it was real funny. I genuinely meant no disrespect. I apologize man.

Don't worry about it. I didn't see it as disrespect at all.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Probably, but it has a line comparing dimensional differences to reality-fiction differences.

In a way that makes it clear that the two are seperate things.

 

[Trigger]

Don't worry about it. I didn't see it as disrespect at all.

Thanks a lot man.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

Regarding the Doctor Who conversation, having a universe/multiverse outside of a Level IV Multiverse without using some sort of colloquial description or vocabulary (which is pretty much what happens in 1-A) is incoherent. It's like saying there's a set beyond the class of all sets or a "thing outside of everything". Level IV Multiverses are intended to be all-inclusive by definition. If there's a universe beyond it, then it's not a Level IV Multiverse. I don't think that necessarily disproves Low 1-A though, but that's just my opinion.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Regarding the Doctor Who conversation, having a universe/multiverse outside of a Level IV Multiverse without using some sort of colloquial description or vocabulary (which is pretty much what happens in 1-A) is incoherent. It's like saying there's a set beyond the class of all sets or a "thing outside of everything". Level IV Multiverses are intended to be all-inclusive by definition. If there's a universe beyond it, then it's not a Level IV Multiverse. I don't think that necessarily disproves Low 1-A though, but that's just my opinion.

That's one way of looking at it within that specific context.

 

[Agnaa]

Probably, but it has a line comparing dimensional differences to reality-fiction differences.

Why do people keep saying this....

It has a line comparing them, but that comparison says that reality-fiction differences are even greater and more fundamental than dimensional differences.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Why do people keep saying this....

It has a line comparing them, but that comparison says that reality-fiction differences are even greater and more fundamental than dimensional differences.

Yes Agnaa that seems to be the case the person was trying to convey.

 

[Isaiah_ZaMangaka]

Could be, yeah. Could also be a "Fictional works are ontologically lesser realities, but dreams/thoughts aren't." It's pretty weirdly specific, but has no problems to it, in principle.

Ultima, about that one Tier 0 sandbox you sent a while back (Divine Comedy), i assume it’ll be used as an example for the upcoming Tier 0 Thread?