The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

[Trigger]

I'm knowledgeable enough on the verse in particular where you can quit the game where you describe the series in every way but name.

No, Veldanava's original state does not qualify. As far as I'm aware it lacks the essential evidence of ontological superiority.

Lol! Bro why u gotta call out a man like that!? Blud got me cracking up like crazy on my couch, lol.
But thanks a lot man, now I can rest in peace
Well that is, if Fuse doesn't pull something out of his ass though.


Edit: Damn, didn't mean to double post, sorry fam.

 

[Ovy7]

So, I guess that with this new changed you could have a Tier 0 in a verse that doesn't even have Tier 1 stuff, but it would likely take a ton of proof for that upgrade. . .

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Do tier 0s have free will?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I will let you know when I reach it.

 

[Karabach-barabach]

Do tier 0s have free will?

I dunno, maybe you should ask them

 

[Trigger]

Do tier 0s have free will?

Why wouldn't they? What's stopping them? If there is, then they are no longer tier 0. But maybe you meant mindless? Then it honestly depends on the verse, something like the divine comedy's tier 0 most definitely has a will(conscious) of it self.
But stuff from journey to the west maybe different.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Do tier 0s have free will?

"Free Will" as a concept is, to us, basically something that boils down to the ability to pick and choose between possibilities. A Tier 0 is the creator of all possibilities whatsoever, and isn't expressed in any of them (It's purely actual, and in no way possible), so the concept itself doesn't make much sense when applied to them.

That said, they're "free" in the sense that the effects of their singular eternal act don't really add anything whatsoever to their essence. So, pretty much in the sense of "Neither of these effects are incompatible with their nature."

So, I guess that with this new changed you could have a Tier 0 in a verse that doesn't even have Tier 1 stuff, but it would likely take a ton of proof for that upgrade. . .

Oh, of course. Tier 0s are totally self-sufficient, so, you could have a verse where the only cosmological structure around is the Monad and it'd still be Tier 0.

 

[Tyranno223]

"Free Will" as a concept is, to us, basically something that boils down to the ability to pick and choose between possibilities. A Tier 0 is the creator of all possibilities whatsoever, and isn't expressed in any of them (It's purely actual, and in no way possible), so the concept itself doesn't make much sense when applied to them.

That said, they're "free" in the sense that the effects of their singular eternal act don't really add anything whatsoever to their essence. So, pretty much in the sense of "Neither of these effects are incompatible with their nature."


Oh, of course. Tier 0s are totally self-sufficient, so, you could have a verse where the only cosmological structure around is the Monad and it'd still be Tier 0.

So just to check, tier 0 characters can still actively choose to affect their verse right?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Tier 0 Nasuverse LESSSGOOOOO

Why are you assuming The Root is 0 ? I mean I understand the logic behind it but I don't think anything he said in the thread changes anything.

 

[Tdjwo]

Why are you assuming The Root is 0 ? I mean I understand the logic behind it but I don't think anything he said in the thread changes anything.

Huh? The Root is literally the textbook definition of a Monad. If you understand the logic behind it, then you understand why it would be Tier 0.

 

[Tyranno223]

Huh? The Root is literally the textbook definition of a Monad. If you understand the logic behind it, then you understand why it would be Tier 0.

Just as long as Nasu doesn't suddenly write a protag who reaches it somehow.

 

[Tdjwo]

Just as long as Nasu doesn't suddenly write a protag who reaches it somehow.

Nasu protags are always fodder (except bae Ryougi). Don't worry about that. Even top tiers in the verse can't reach it.

 

[Tyranno223]

Nasu protags are always fodder (except bae Ryougi). Don't worry about that. Even top tiers in the verse can't reach it.

Right, I should have said "as long as he doesn't have a female love interest reach it somehow."

 

[Tdjwo]

Right, I should have said "as long as he doesn't have a female love interest reach it somehow."

Nah. They would get erased lol

 

[Metalballrun]

So, I guess that with this new changed you could have a Tier 0 in a verse that doesn't even have Tier 1 stuff, but it would likely take a ton of proof for that upgrade. . .

Seems like this is in part one of Deagon's concerns and I understand it.
There's likely a character with qualities pointing to Divine Simplicity but not necessarily being Tier 0, especially if they exist in a story with only a Low 2-C structure at most.

 

[Tyranno223]

Nah. They would get erased lol

They should, but you never know with Nasu.

He does like his waifus.

 

[Chaotic_Existentialist]

 

[Tdjwo]

Lmao

 

[Deagonx]

Seems like this is in part one of Deagon's concerns and I understand it.
There's likely a character with qualities pointing to Divine Simplicity but not necessarily being Tier 0, especially if they exist in a story with only a Low 2-C structure at most.

Yeah I don't see any reason for Divine Simplicity or NT to grant a higher tier than R>F would, unless you just place theology on a pedestal for no particular reason.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Seems like this is in part one of Deagon's concerns and I understand it.
There's likely a character with qualities pointing to Divine Simplicity but not necessarily being Tier 0, especially if they exist in a story with only a Low 2-C structure at most.

Requiring a tier 1 cosmology for a tier 0 is just extremely arbitrary. There would be no difference between a low 2-C structure and a high 1-A structure to said monad and due to how unreachable and ineffable said tier 0 is you could just say any 1-A or High 1-A cosmology also isn't sufficient enough since those tiers are as significant to said monad as like 11-C.

 

[Chaotic_Existentialist]

Yeah I don't see any reason for Divine Simplicity or NT to grant a higher tier than R>F would, unless you just place theology on a pedestal for no particular reason.

if you're just above all attributes you're by definition above all possible qualitative jumps

 

[Tdjwo]

They should, but you never know with Nasu.

He does like his waifus.

Do you know how long Touko Aozaki has been trying to reach the root just to fail miserably. This is the same person that can create a platonic human. Nasu ain't letting no waifu reach the root ever.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Mashallah.

There's likely a character with qualities pointing to Divine Simplicity but not necessarily being Tier 0, especially if they exist in a story with only a Low 2-C structure at most.

I did already say that Tier 0 is cosmology-independent, didn't I?

 

[Deagonx]

if you're just above all attributes you're by definition above all possible qualitative jumps

"Above all attributes" is an attribute.

This is just omnipotence but with extra illogical steps.

 

[Chaotic_Existentialist]

"Above all attributes" is an attribute.

This is just omnipotence but with extra illogical steps.

doesnt denounce what i said

 

[BadSystems]

"Above all attributes" is an attribute.

This is just omnipotence but with extra illogical steps.

This is my proposal for Tier 0, then.

 

[Lasting900]

Will a NEW THREAD be opened for commoners? Discussing:

Tiering System Revisions: Tier 0​

or will comments continue to be posted here? (Asking before this thread gets even more lengthy to follow)

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I respect both of you, because I can't understand any of the shit you are talking about. Is Deagonx's problem that the cutoff point for Tier 0 feels kind of arbitrary and mostly flowery and showy language rather than anything important enough to warrant such a rating?

 

[Deagonx]

doesnt denounce what i said

I'll take your word for it.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

No reason to create another thread. This is fine.

 

[Chaotic_Existentialist]

I'll take your word for it.

good boy

 

[Deagonx]

Is Deagonx's problem that the cutoff point for Tier 0 feels kind of arbitrary and mostly flowery and showy language rather than anything important enough to warrant such a rating?

I think the R>F cutoff is mostly arbitrary but that was more last thread's problem. Currently I just don't feel that the theological concepts invoked in the current thread are worthy of being enshrined as the pinnacle of our tiering system.

 

[Rabbit2002]

1. Get better taste in fiction.

2. Normally, I'd call this Tier 0, but seeing as this is a cultivation novel, I won't be as charitable. I'd say it's High 1-A, if it exceeds the duality between "Immortal" and "Non-Immortal" where at least one of those is 1-A and the other is lower.

So is this Tier 0?

Only by going deeper into it can one understand the mystery of life, the marvel of the soul, and something beyond the soul, which is the nature, the heart of the Way, or the Buddha-nature, the "Brahman" of Yoga.
　　"Brahman is I, and I am Brahman. Shankara, in the midst of the debate, argued down all the monks of the Nalanda Temple, leading to the final destruction of the Nalanda Temple. Buddhism talks about emptiness, everything is empty, all the four elements are empty, so to speak, it's becoming, dwelling, destroying and emptying. Shankara, on the other hand, classified emptiness as inferior to Brahman, believing that the world is unique and that is Brahman, not emptiness. Emptiness is nothing more than a lower class of Brahman. How exactly

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I think the R>F cutoff is mostly arbitrary but that was more last thread's problem. Currently I just don't feel that the theological concepts invoked in the current thread are worthy of being enshrined as the pinnacle of our tiering system.

While I disagree with the R>F and prefer it the new way, I do somewhat agree with what you are saying. Due to my ignorance I can't propose something else, but I do see the problem with it.

 

[Chaotic_Existentialist]

Why are you assuming The Root is 0 ? I mean I understand the logic behind it but I don't think anything he said in the thread changes anything.

nasuverse is like 1 to 1 Tier 0

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

"Free Will" as a concept is, to us, basically something that boils down to the ability to pick and choose between possibilities. A Tier 0 is the creator of all possibilities whatsoever, and isn't expressed in any of them (It's purely actual, and in no way possible), so the concept itself doesn't make much sense when applied to them.

That said, they're "free" in the sense that the effects of their singular eternal act don't really add anything whatsoever to their essence. So, pretty much in the sense of "Neither of these effects are incompatible with their nature."

So does the monad have a say in which possibility is allowed to be possible?

Will a NEW THREAD be opened for commoners? Discussing:

Tiering System Revisions: Tier 0​

or will comments continue to be posted here? (Asking before this thread gets even more lengthy to follow)

There is a general thread I made for staff threads. But I don't see the harm in continuing the discussion here, its all connected.

 

[Lasting900]

So is this Tier 0?

This reminded of a previous question I had…

Forgive me if I fudge this somewhat. When Seraph reaches “Nirvana” at the end of SMT DDS AT 2? Since “I am the World and the World is me?” Does this not confer tier 0? If the axiom is the highest entity, but everyone else is also the axiom itself (like a chicken or the egg paradox) ? Do they “cancel” each other out when they reach this understand? From my brief understanding of Monad, it can’t be if: it is not one, be born from anything, and nothing like it? When Stephen says humanity’s potential to “surpass” the axiom (technically itself). Does he mean it similar to this manner? Going back to what it originally was in the first place? (It’s not directly stated, but implied?) cause only those who have gained this understanding or “enlightenment” can describe themselves?

 

[Eseseso]

The above Marvel scan uses Cantor's theory of transinfinite numbers (even mentioning how it starts with "aleph") to state the number of dimensions in the Marvel Universe (aka Universal Eternity).

What tier would the above be?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The above Marvel scan uses Cantor's theory of transinfinite numbers (even mentioning how it starts with "aleph") to state the number of dimensions in the Marvel Universe (aka Universal Eternity).

What tier would the above be?

Looks High 1-B+ and that does not count that Marvel used transfinite wrong.

 

[Elyartaker]

Can a 3D being have high outer AP?