- 17,375
- 12,855
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"
- Thread starter Iamunanimousinthat
- Start date
-
- Tags
- tiering system
- Status
- 18,618
- 12,898
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,453
Well, it's a solid 40k above the next most viewed staff thread, so I'd say yes.
- 521
- 353
Most views that a staff discussion has ever gotten.
- 2,151
- 2,108
What's the most viewed thread of all time?
- 521
- 353
OPM discussion thread at 3 million views.
STRONGEST One-Punch Man Discussion Thread!
Welcome to the STRONGEST One-Punch Man Discussion Thread! Currently the most viewed and longest running thread on the entire wiki. Feel free to talk about anything One-Punch Man related, but try to keep the Boros talk to a minimum. We've already had more than our fair share. Webcomic...
- 2,151
- 2,108
Anyone got a top 5 maybe?
- 11,605
- 10,784
1. OPM thread
2. Bleach thread
3. Dragon Ball thread
4. Death Battle Season 10 thread
5. MHA thread
(All Death Battle threads combined would be #1 by a large margin)
Flowman777
They/Them- 77
- 82
Are there going to be other separate commoner's threads for future Tiering System changes threads or should we go to the All Purpose Commoner's Thread for those?
- 3,493
- 1,360
- Thread starter
- #3,010
There's no real rule. But i guess for another future tiering system, a specific one could be best, as we had over 76 pages for one specific topic.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
Username OnlyVS Battles
Joke Battles
Administrator
Content Moderator
Translation Helper
- 3,245
- 3,944
More than any announcements thread, Q&A, versus thread, regular CRT, calc thread, or thread from our sister wikis.
News and Announcements
Our News and Announcements subforum is intended to feature crucial site-wide announcements, ranging from new staff memberships to changes in indexing standards, or other important topics that directly concern our wiki and community as a whole. Topics regarding deaths of prominent actors or...
Questions and Answers
Got a question about the wiki, or a topic? Ask your questions here!
Versus Threads
This board is for discussing character fights. Please avoid highly controversial topics.
Content Revision
Often, statistics and other important contents for profile pages need to be revised. Any discussion pertaining to such revisions must be done in this board. Before posting, make sure that your arguments are presented in a manner that is easy to understand and backed by valid scans. In...
Calc Group Discussion
A board serving as a workshop for the calc group, to more easily discuss different calculations and wiki projects. Other members should only comment if they can provide information, or it is otherwise useful for a discussion.
Flowman777
They/Them- 77
- 82
Oh, I was just curious what the plan was. Okay.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
Username OnlyVS Battles
Joke Battles
Administrator
Content Moderator
Translation Helper
- 3,245
- 3,944
@Ultima_Reality How many more threads do you have planned and when will you post them?
- 6,196
- 16,487
3. Though one of those is very straightforward.
I'll post the Tier 0 thread in the following days, probably.
- 70
- 36
Tier 0 will be an interesting one.
by the way ultima, all forms of absolute infinity is low outer now?
I heard there are different interpretation of it that can get higher in quality but never heard myself.
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,565
- 13,850
Really? I thought it'd be at least 4 more, and probably more like 5.
- Tier 0 thread.
- Tier 2 thread (probably not).
- Which specific rearrangement of tier 11/1/0 to go with.
- How to rewrite the main pages (Tiering System and associates).
- How to rewrite all supplementary pages (could be merged with previous, speed, nonduality, resistance, etc).
- Thread to post CRTs when the changes get implemented.
- 6,196
- 16,487
I am not doing Tier 2 in these revisions. I'd merge 4 and 5. And I don't really count 6 as part of the active revisions, since it's moreso their aftermath.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
Username OnlyVS Battles
Joke Battles
Administrator
Content Moderator
Translation Helper
- 3,245
- 3,944
Should we make a rule to freeze 1-A and 0 threads until these finish?
- 2,356
- 933
- 3,493
- 1,360
- Thread starter
- #3,020
Considering the cases where the higher reality created the fictional reality, couldn't you argue that the power and ability for the lower reality being to interact with the higher reality was already baked in?
The Lower reality was essentially created with the higher reality's power, so why couldn't the lower reality access that power within it's setting? Every aspect, law, physics, concept, and idea was created with that higher power, including the concept and ability of the lower reality interacting with the higher reality.
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,565
- 13,850
Yeah, but this quickly leads you to not having this qualitative/quantitative distinction at all. So they'll just say that "If the lower reality is created in a way where it's able to do that, it's not actually qualitatively lower."
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,565
- 13,850
Might as well leave it up until the next thread's made.
- 3,493
- 1,360
- Thread starter
- #3,024
There are several other threads that are going to be made following the direct conclusion of the change. IT's not necessarily done.
Which I would then ask, does the qualitive superiority come from the lack of interaction?
- 6,196
- 16,487
Depends entirely on what the ability in question is. I'd only apply the logic Agnaa outlined above if the interaction is in the form of "The fictional reality and its elements are able to reach out and influence the higher plane solely through their own physicality." If it's a "Such interaction is normally completely impossible, but every being in the lower world has the hidden metaphysical potential to raise higher," I have no issue with it.
- 2,356
- 933
I'm pretty sure no one's budging an inch untill qualitative superiorty in the Tier Q&A gets changed
Agnaa
VS Battles
Super Moderator
Administrator
Calculation Group
Translation Helper
Human Resources
Gold Supporter
- 15,565
- 13,850
I think it kinda does. R>F is being generally indexed like that due to the view that simple quantitative extensions won't be able to reach it.
- 3,493
- 1,360
- Thread starter
- #3,028
So the difference between looney toon characters and Narnia characters?
Personally, I don't see an important difference between the two. One story treats the ability to reach a higher reality as something sacred and the other will do it for a fart joke. I personally don't think looney toon characters should be denied R>F for not worshiping at the altar of transcendence.
Then, I would say by that logic, only stories that maintain that lack of interaction completely should qualify. Any story where a character rises above, would violate that lack of interaction. (of course that would be extremely strict and not fun)
- 42
- 7
In DDS, the junkyard. Is that R>F transcendence? They were only able to leave after gaining an ego through the Atma virus? But originally they were just AI?
- 3,493
- 1,360
- Thread starter
- #3,030
Also, going back to what was said by @Deagonx. IF a story says FTL is impossible and its characters aren't FTL, that doesn't mean a FTL character from another story will have their speed capped if they are placed in the first story.
I would argue the same would apply here, If a story says Lower beings cannot interact with the higher reality and its characters who are lower simply can't, that shouldn't mean a lower character from another story where they can interact with the higher reality, shouldn't be able to do so. No?
I would argue the same would apply here, If a story says Lower beings cannot interact with the higher reality and its characters who are lower simply can't, that shouldn't mean a lower character from another story where they can interact with the higher reality, shouldn't be able to do so. No?
- 3,493
- 1,360
- Thread starter
- #3,031
Sorry to double post. But I guess a loop hole would be the higher reality, simply recreating the lower character in their reality.
- 6,196
- 16,487
More like the difference between "This ability is something imbued into the fictional reality by the power of a higher being, and which is not co-equal to, but suffuses and empowers, certain substances in that reality" and "The fictional reality somehow, entirely on its own terms, developed the ability to interact with a higher ontological layer, without any input whatsoever from higher things."
Of course, Looney Tunes is not something I reject from R>F solely because of "People from the lower reality unexplainedly interact with their animators." I simply also argue that "This character sees a reality as immaterial and insubstantial from their higher perspective" doesn't follow from purely visual depictions whatsoever, and needs to be separately elaborated.
Not really the same case, no, since a higher layer being ontologically higher requires a structural discontinuity between the two. Interaction-based anti-feats are largely problematic because they imply that there is, in fact, continuity to be found between the realms.
Meanwhile, how fast FTL is doesn't depend on showcases of interactions with slower things. It's something whose minimum value (2c) we already know a priori, rather than inferring it a posteriori by observing how it acts. So it's a pretty bad analogy to tack on here.
- 3,035
- 2,238
I agreeth with this statementh.
- 6,196
- 16,487
Honestly a good call, probably. Although I'd want others to weigh in on the matter as well.
- 272
- 108
How would this requirement work when there's an R>F between 2 non-physical worlds? Like some abstract, non physical world viewing another non-physical world as fiction?
Also would it be considered an anti feat if theres a higher world that views the lower as imaginary and unreal, but some other distinct imaginary, unreal, and nonexistent things are not portrayed as not lesser than the higher world entities? Like a higher world views some lesser world as a fictional story but some of the (unrelated to the previously mentioned fictional story) dreams/imagined thoughts the characters in the higher world have are not lesser than them and the other residents of the higher world?
- 6,196
- 16,487
You can stack this stuff just fine for whatever analogs exist in higher layers.
Don't see why that would be an anti-feat. Sounds like the verse is just saying there's multiple kinds of imaginary structures.
- 272
- 108
So in a verse with R>F, some imaginary/nonexistent stuff can not be lesser than the higher worlds while others are lesser without any issues to ontological superiority? Would it be like a "some unreal/nonexistent natures are lesser than reality/existence while others aren't" type of thing?
- 6,196
- 16,487
Could be, yeah. Could also be a "Fictional works are ontologically lesser realities, but dreams/thoughts aren't." It's pretty weirdly specific, but has no problems to it, in principle.
- 1,141
- 1,154
Have there been any instances where a real being dwells in a fiction world by operating in a physical shell (like his true form is kinda sealed inside it if that makes sense)?
- 104
- 117
Lol no
- Status
