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The former.
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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"
- Thread starter Iamunanimousinthat
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Truly based.
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I know next to nothing about that branch, and it's not canon as a whole to the English version, which is the only one we're allowing on the site.Chinese SCP:
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- Thread starter
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Why exactly?
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Don't know why that- Da!-da da da da!- da da da da!-da da da da!! Chad song kept playing in my head.
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because with rules like that the verse establishes a monad is not absolute and thus infinitely weaker than a true monad?
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Weakest Chinaman.Chinese SCP:
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- Thread starter
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I don’t really understand this explanation because the rules of the latter verse would prevent a monad from ever existing within its cosmology. The attempt to establish one couldn’t even occur.
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The Monad he refers to is the absolute one and not a sort of monads for actions, body, or thoughts.
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which means said monad being prevented is contradicted and not a true one.
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- Thread starter
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?? There was no monad to begin with.
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Ngl, I ain't got no idea.
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well
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If you have a thing X such that "X would exist if it weren't for these laws and rules," then that thing is automatically not a Monad, since the Monad cannot be subject to anything outside of itself, on account of its self-sufficiency and independence from anything at all. If it exists, it's something that necessarily exists. Which is to say, it exists by definition.
If it doesn't exist, it's not because "These laws and rules prevent it from existing." It simply... doesn't. That doesn't introduce any problems when it comes to comparing cosmologies.
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Umm, would this qualify for 1-a?
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No.
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Well damn. thanks for the answer.
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I would also like to note that this was the key used in giving this character (Veldanava), BDE type 2. Check it out here
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Still, think that the Presence in Vertigo is 0 as well.
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I have some conflicting feelings about the situation around this revision. Sadly, it's just too much "We'll get X franchise at 1-A/0, we can't let that happen" or "Finally X will be 1-A and solos Y" when that just feels wrong. And I feel those situations influence why some people are in favor or not of the revision, which is sad.
The way I see it, the function of a Tiering system is to be good enough to encompass any number of characters under a certain philosophy that was used during the development. It could just be a tiering system that tiers pure energy and stops at infinite joules and it would be fine as long as the system was well explained and consistent.
The reason why I'm fine with Ultima's revision is just because they make sense. Of course, it isn't that logical to recognize a difference in existence/state/energy between two beings as not being comparable by numerical values while expressing that by giving it a numerical value. So dividing the tiers into physical values and metaphysical existence makes sense, In fact, I would say that the most complete system for the most generic works would be one that tiers numbers of dimensions, energy, and ontological status in different hierarchies. So we could pick someone that transcends the state of existence of a "baseline reality" while being just building level on its level reality and having an existence that is meaningful in 23D space-time. Of course, that isn't feasible on this wiki, but such a system would be fine to exist due to its self-consistency.
Ultima's revision seems to focus on said consistencies, which is why I'm fine with it. The reductionism to "With this SDBH Goku will be Tier 0 and solos fiction" is just sad when it's a really interesting and consistent approach that fixes a lot of the logical problems with the current system.
Tl;dr, I would be happy if more people focused on the good the Tiering system brings on its own, rather than the effects it'll have in individual franchises. (That is also why so many people might get the system wrong because they'll just start to change previous understandings of fiction to fit with the system and get higher tiers, rather than understand the fiction on its own and then try to fit it with the system, not the opposite).
The way I see it, the function of a Tiering system is to be good enough to encompass any number of characters under a certain philosophy that was used during the development. It could just be a tiering system that tiers pure energy and stops at infinite joules and it would be fine as long as the system was well explained and consistent.
The reason why I'm fine with Ultima's revision is just because they make sense. Of course, it isn't that logical to recognize a difference in existence/state/energy between two beings as not being comparable by numerical values while expressing that by giving it a numerical value. So dividing the tiers into physical values and metaphysical existence makes sense, In fact, I would say that the most complete system for the most generic works would be one that tiers numbers of dimensions, energy, and ontological status in different hierarchies. So we could pick someone that transcends the state of existence of a "baseline reality" while being just building level on its level reality and having an existence that is meaningful in 23D space-time. Of course, that isn't feasible on this wiki, but such a system would be fine to exist due to its self-consistency.
Ultima's revision seems to focus on said consistencies, which is why I'm fine with it. The reductionism to "With this SDBH Goku will be Tier 0 and solos fiction" is just sad when it's a really interesting and consistent approach that fixes a lot of the logical problems with the current system.
Tl;dr, I would be happy if more people focused on the good the Tiering system brings on its own, rather than the effects it'll have in individual franchises. (That is also why so many people might get the system wrong because they'll just start to change previous understandings of fiction to fit with the system and get higher tiers, rather than understand the fiction on its own and then try to fit it with the system, not the opposite).
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Unfortunately that attitude is a mainstay of the powerscaling community in general. I agree it's very unfortunate.
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Oh DC, thought there was a stronger guy in the verse, might just me misremembering things.
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Yeah, but this current system heavily favors things like SCP and WoD. It's always going to be something that is not exactly perfect.
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On Vertigo, no? In DC, not really but the Divine Presence from Matteis Cosmology is slightly more conceptual in that his relationship with Creation is very defined. I see them both as equal but separate.
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That's a pretty terrible justification, to be honest. The scan is obviously referencing his singular existence prior to anything else, that doesn't imply that he transcends dimensionality in any way.
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Who is that Divine Presence if I may ask.
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Pretty sure it’s God from DeMatteis’ Spectre Comics
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The Divine Presence is like the Presence that there is both “God.” The difference is Divine Presence is mainly supposed to be the Hinduic belief of the Parabrahman. While the Presence is the Gnostic “the One” in his true shape and “Yahweh” is one of his faces in the Judeo-Christian belief.
In Vertigo, the Presence makes all rules, and the Void a is piece of him.
In DC, Divine Presence contains everyone and everything including the Void.
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Wouldn't that make the Divine Presence scale higher than the Presence? Or would they just be parts of the same character?
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There both Supreme in their own depiction. They just defined differently because Mike Carey doesn't use Hindu a lot and Matteis almost always does though not heavily on the Abrahamic system. I say they're both equal and one isn't truly greater than the other. Despite, the two being questioned in power in the past but then when we read the story we get context to those certain statements.
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I’m genuinely curious that aside from all possible character strings and all possible worlds, what other things would qualify for High 1-A+
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I share the same sentiment as Ultimas in that discussion as well. The Presence was trying to attain "perfect enlightenment", wasn't even fully omniscient with certain areas existing outside of his knowledge, and was erased when Lucifer ceased to exist (as well as explicitly within a duality between himself and the darkness).
These aren't really attributes of a Monad, even though yeah, The Smile is straightforwardly 0.
These aren't really attributes of a Monad, even though yeah, The Smile is straightforwardly 0.
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You mean Sandman rebooted the lore of Lucifer which you said isn't in the continuity with Carey’s Lucifer.
Also, the Presence is already in Perfect Enlightenment. However, the Monks themselves “believe” that by destroying all forms of matter and undoing Creation that floats in the Void(his mind) that God finally has it. This was strictly what the Monks believed to be the case, not that God needed it to happen.
Based on your incoherent depiction of the scans and beliefs of the Monks? Sure!
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