Georredannea15
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Lmao man, I was misunderstood you so much.
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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"
- Thread starter Iamunanimousinthat
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- 66
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There will never stop being wanks and such, there will never be a perfect system for scaling, my take is a very common one from people who have no understanding of scaling but I try to make it more reasonable. Writing isn't meant for power scaling, that is obvious, so trying to make a system that is perfect to the standards of everyone is impossible by our human understanding, we as humans are biased so trying to make a system will always show our bias, it doesn't matter if you're team math or team philosophy, both are very flawed ways of scaling. Like I said before it is impossible for us to make a nonbiased system so the only option is to make the majority happy rather than the minority, and the majority from my research is philosophy, but with this new system it aims towards that team but also tries to give some to the math team, if anything I have said made any lick of sense.
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anyone knowledgeable here on the verse that can answer my question?
Agnaa
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If that's the approach you're taking, my view is that we don't really have to just have a system revolve around one or the other.
I think the basis of our system, "new hierarchies where any step in them encompasses the entirety of what came previously", is pretty agnostic to philosophy vs mathematics.
Our current system is biased towards mathematics, but imo, that's only because we really lowball the mathematical constructs we draw equivalences to. Or at least, we make it incredibly vague.
I would be pretty fine with taking the current system, setting 1-A/BDE to a proper class, and that would cap all verses that just chuck out big cardinals without having any nested cosmological hierarchies below that tier.
But Ultima's suggestion goes far further;
- It makes any invocation of quantitative jumps, or continuity of potency, to be considered an anti-feat, that drops down the verse.
- It treats R>F as being beyond all dimensions.
- It only lets qualitative hierarchy jumps reach 1-A and above.
- It establishes a tier for monads, equalising cosmologies regardless of their size, and dismissing polytheistic cosmologies.
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R>F argument is fine, if we treat it like us to our own books/movies then it makes sense, I think the beyond all dimensions is a low ball for it.
If that is true then I do not agree with that part, I do agree tier 0 should be for monads but the gap between High 1A and 0 Should be never ending, even if you threw in everything our brains have ever thought about it would still not close the gap between High 1A and 0.
A true neutral system could never happen, we can try to close the gap between both sides but one side would always get the shorter end of the stick, which would then bring more conflict ending in either one side being left behind or a revision to the system.
I don't truly understand what you mean by this.
same with this
agreed.
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more on this statement, capping the system at 0 is a really good idea, it gets rid of the annoying tier 0 match ups you'll see everywhere and makes debating a lot more interesting then who can reach higher into tier 0, or even breaking the tiering system like those tiktok nerds say.
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At the end of the day I think capping the system, R>F upgrade, and beyond dimensions being 1A is the best thing to come from the revision, I believe there are some problems to fix, upgrade terms, or add new things to the system but those three things that I said before should 100% stay as they all around better the system.
Agnaa
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That's not the basis for it, and Ultima has directly rejected that approach.
That is essentially the idea.
I think we should at least try, rather than just giving into the bias.
It only lets series reach 1-A and above by being "more real/fundamental", and things similar to that. Mathematical cosmologies, and vague cosmologies, can't make that jump.
If a series does have something being more real/fundamental, but then says it's equivalent/inferior to some mathematical object (even pretty all-encompassing ones like absolute infinity, Type IV multiverses, and the like), that would be taken to imply that it's not ACTUALLY more real, and cause it to be given a lower rating.
If a series does have something being more real/fundamental, but then has a less-real character ascend to that level through their own ability/power - something that wasn't granted to them by a more-real being - that would be taken to imply that it's not ACTUALLY more real.
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I feel like making the jump more reachable would be the right fix then.
Yeah this just seems to be more of a punch at math scaling, if I'm taking what you're saying correctly that would mean any character that is above a fiction would also not be real, making said character scale nowhere, if that makes sense.
I see your point here, with the R>F difference not being like our own this makes zero sense, I think for it to make sense you would have to upgrade R>F to be like our own relationship to fiction. I agree with all the points you presented.
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If I'm correct on the gap between 1A and High 1A being like R>F, you could change it to uncountable amounts of infinite difference, being no amount of stacks of infinity could reach it, allowing math scaling to be able to make that jump to High 1A.
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The gap between High 1-A and 0 is absolutely absurd and it is never-ending. You can't reach Tier 0 without being a Monad, that'd defeat the purpose. It doesn't matter how many meta-qualitative hierarchies and detachments from those hierarchies you have, it will continue to be High 1-A...
tbh if you guys really want a more neutral system why not just add more tiers to Tier 0 for more metaphysical and philosophical concepts and leave 1-A and High 1-A to mathematics?
tbh if you guys really want a more neutral system why not just add more tiers to Tier 0 for more metaphysical and philosophical concepts and leave 1-A and High 1-A to mathematics?
Agnaa
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Which seems pretty dumb, but it's hard to get into specifics since Ultima doesn't want to talk about it yet.
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Yeah, and?
Georredannea15
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Or let's stack everything below Tier 0 and keep Tier 0 in the baseline.
GarrixianXD
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Honestly, tier 0 shouldn’t even exist.
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This take is kind of bad, just makes more conflict with "Your verse doesn't have this so my verse scales higher" arguments. Having more tiers than the amount the tiering system already has will just cause a huge mess of scaling. The ideal state is to find where these concepts can coexist.
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Why?
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honestly I always thought 001 Swann's Proposal was supposed to be the supreme being of the verse
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Didn't Agnaa lean toward Ultimate now or was he/she joking?
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You could read the conversation we had a couple hours ago about the problems with the new system, but only they can answer that.
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Basically, because calculation and thread moderators mostly agreed to Ultima's proposal, but don't actually have the ability to vote Agnaa changed their vote to represent them.
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Yeah, I understood why he/she did it. I was asking if would it change the voting because if Firestorm does agree then it would be 7-2. Ending the first voting thing, if Agnaa does continue with his/her side of the argument for a second round of voting.
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There are still staff who want to say some things, so regardless, it won't be concluded yet.
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You're absolutely right! We must wait! Because it's not what we want but it's the right thing to do 
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Rakih_Elyan
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Agnaa vote doesn't matter, he is Mr pant power.
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^Either I'm old or I'm an uncultured swine because I don't get the reference at all.
Rakih_Elyan
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That just his name in discord lol.
Also, check where he come from in his forum profile.
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I feel like even if the new system isn't perfect, it'll make it much easier to transition to one that is.
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I'll keep that noted, thank you.
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Lol this is why I am so adamant that the conversation of “quality” between different verses is meaningless.
Trying to scale metaphysical aspects that require In-world and verse specific logic and framing to make sense, to other metaphysical aspects is like asking which is stronger, the number 5 or a ripe mango.
Which is more powerful, a cosmology where a monad exists or one where the logic of the cosmology makes it impossible for one to ever exist?
Trying to scale metaphysical aspects that require In-world and verse specific logic and framing to make sense, to other metaphysical aspects is like asking which is stronger, the number 5 or a ripe mango.
Which is more powerful, a cosmology where a monad exists or one where the logic of the cosmology makes it impossible for one to ever exist?
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The former.
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Truly based.
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I know next to nothing about that branch, and it's not canon as a whole to the English version, which is the only one we're allowing on the site.Chinese SCP:
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Why exactly?
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