The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

[Agnaa]

How would we treat universes with short-cuts/passages (not different/alternative dimensions) that allow for FTL and/or time travel?

For example, warp space isn't an alternate universe, but it's mostly separate to the regular 3/4D universe, and vessels can 'drop' in and out of it (the same terminology used for Hyperspace travel in Star Wars, and Vortex travel in Doctor Who) for casual travel across decades and galaxies.

That sounds a bit unrelated to this whole revision, ngl.

 

[ByAsura]

It plays into a related question about complex dimensional/multiversal spaces (specifically from one of the largest, and most diverse cosmologies in all of fiction) that I'm going to ask later.

Plus, this is general discussion thread, and people have been asking about similarly unrelated topics for like the past 50 pages.

 

[Agnaa]

Eh, those topics have seemed relevant to things that are plausibly changing under Ultima's proposed revisions.

But if this will play into something you'll ask later, go ahead.

 

[Ovy7]

Why does DontTalk keep using this scan as proof of fake R>F for his 4th point when the context of the scan doesn't even refer to R>F?

And why did Ultima say nothing considering he read Umineko and knows the context of the scan?

 

[Executor_N0]

How would we treat universes with short-cuts/passages (not different/alternative dimensions) that allow for FTL and/or time travel?

For example, warp space isn't an alternate universe, but it's mostly separate to the regular 3/4D universe, and vessels can 'drop' in and out of it (the same terminology used for Hyperspace travel in Star Wars, and Vortex travel in Doctor Who) for casual travel across decades and galaxies.

It'll depend a lot on the specifications of the work itself.

Normally, warp spaces seem to be depicted as different spaces in which relativistic laws do not apply. If the laws of physics follow spatial continuity, it could be that a different spatial dimension might follow different rules that are different from the conventional space we interact with. If not, it might be possible to have some space regions that do not follow relativistic laws.

In the case of warp spaces that are like a different space with different laws of physics, it might be considered an extra spatial dimension, as if it were a parallel dimension that follows different rules. If they are just an odd region of regular space, it might all be considered the same conventional 4D space-time.

I know that at least Marvel has a very popular scene that explains hyperspace as being a higher-dimensional plane in a universe that allows for movement without taking into account relativistic laws.

The tiering for affecting the universe will all depend on how much of the universe is affected. Normally, I suppose we only assume the portion of the universe that is directly interacted with by the characters is affected, so it would need a mention that the hyperspace was affected in order to work. I for sure know that some fiction really fluctuates when inner-pocket spaces function or not, counting to "universal destruction.".

 

[Ben_CleverName]

It's unbelievable how we're this far into the thread, with people finally posting their summaries, and DT is still straw-manning and ignoring the core aspects of Ultima's arguments.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Voting on the thread has officially started, and I'm going to be counting.

On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System

Alrighty, guys, it took way longer than I wanted but I finally finished that summary. [/QUOTE] The flaw becomes evident when considering whether the same rationale applies to souls existing on a spiritual plane. Transitioning from n to n+1 dimensions doesn't imbue a space with soul-like...

vsbattles.com

For reference, here's the opinions collected a while ago:

I just thought I'd create a tally of the current progress, if no one minds.

Agree​

Antvasima (Agrees as long as the new tiers have detailed requirements)​

Ultima_Reality (Thread Starter)​

DarkDragonMedeus (Agrees with 1-A being the tier for qualitative superiorities to dimensionality, initially neutral on R>F being 1-A by default before eventually agreeing with it too)​

DarkGrath (Agreed with everything at first, failed to change her mind after hearing the counters)​

Elizhaa (Agrees with everything)​

Sir_Ovens (Agrees with everything)​

Andytrenom (Agrees with 1-A being the tier for qualitative superiorities to dimensionality, disagrees with R>F being 1-A by default)​

Everything12 (Agrees with everything)​

Planck69 (Agrees with everything)​

CrimsonStarFallen (Agrees with everything)​

Theglassman12 (Agrees with everything)​

IdiosyncraticLawyer (Thinks productive changes should result from the CRT, defends all of Ultima's points)​

Phoenks (Agrees with everything)​

Executor_N0 (Agrees that Ultima's post reveals how the current system fails to effectively encompass all of fiction)​

CloverDragon03 (Agrees with everything)​

Neutral​

Crabwhale (Ain't reading allat)​

KLOL506 (Asked some questions, hasn't voted himself)​

AbaddonTheDisappointment (Asked some questions, hasn't voted himself)​

Disagree​

DontTalkDT (Thinks the notion of composite hierarchies already addresses Ultima's concerns regarding R>F equalization)​

Agnaa (Disagrees with everything)​

Qawsedf234 (Thinks it's unnecessary to create a new system aimed at categorizing all of fiction effectively, as such is impossible)​

Deagonx (R>F is simply better off likened to a single dimensional jump than something beyond dimensional scale)​

Yeesh... I knew this vote would end up lopsided, but this is an absolute slaughter in favor of Ultima.

Note that all four people who've expressed active opposition to Ultima have already voted. Make of that what you will.

 

[Isaiah_ZaMangaka]

So the voting’s finally begun. Depending on the outcome, a new era may indeed be coming.

 

[Eseseso]

Voting on the thread has officially started, and I'm going to be counting.

On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System

Alrighty, guys, it took way longer than I wanted but I finally finished that summary. [/QUOTE] The flaw becomes evident when considering whether the same rationale applies to souls existing on a spiritual plane. Transitioning from n to n+1 dimensions doesn't imbue a space with soul-like...

vsbattles.com

For reference, here's the opinions collected a while ago:

Note that all four people who've expressed active opposition to Ultima have already voted. Make of that what you will.

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

[Lasting900]

IF Ultima’s revision is accepted. How will this affect SMT Verse? Personally, a lot of this went over my head and I’m still trying to grasp certain ideas. So, with my current understanding, I would like know if possible. (Whether I should celebrate or go cry for a while)

 

[Ikelaggan]

IF Ultima’s revision is accepted. How will this affect SMT Verse? Personally, a lot of this went over my head and I’m still trying to grasp certain ideas. So, with my current understanding, I would like know if possible. (Whether I should celebrate or go cry for a while)

It's still probably gonna have 1-A scaling but the starting hierarchy is probably gonna get a massive rework

 

[Lasting900]

It's still probably gonna have 1-A scaling but the starting hierarchy is probably gonna get a massive rework

Since this is going to impact everything due to the nature of the revision taking place? (Still 1-A…Not celebrating or crying) I can live with that for now.

 

[Eseseso]

1-A bump for all Low 1-A smurfs in Marvel, here we come.

 

[SYPHe5D]

1-A bump for all Low 1-A smurfs in Marvel, here we come.

only in a dream sadly

 

[Grand_Astartes]

Why does DontTalk keep using this scan as proof of fake R>F for his 4th point when the context of the scan doesn't even refer to R>F?

And why did Ultima say nothing considering he read Umineko and knows the context of the scan?

I was hoping someone noticed lmao

 

[Deidalius]

Will Dragon Ball Heroes be Outerversal with Ultima's changes?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

And why did Ultima say nothing considering he read Umineko and knows the context of the scan?

Would amount to little more than a nitpick, ngl. Though frankly I should've done that for the funnies, yeah.

 

[Excellence616]

only in a dream sadly

Nah, it's already happening

 

[Eseseso]

only in a dream sadly

I think that Ultima did say that Marvel's Low 1-A would get a bump up to 1-A should this go through.

 

[SYPHe5D]

I think that Ultima did say that Marvel's Low 1-A would get a bump up to 1-A should this go through.

Dubs

 

[Deidalius]

What about DC? Will DC get buffs?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Will Dragon Ball Heroes be Outerversal with Ultima's changes?

No, how would they get outerversal from this? The standards changing has no affect on Dragon Ball.

 

[Excellence616]

Will Dragon Ball Heroes be Outerversal with Ultima's changes?

Yes, in next 400 years. Hopefully

 

[SYPHe5D]

What about DC? Will DC get buffs?

1 A stuff

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's very strange to see Ultima currently on the back foot with the vote tally, even if I'm confident it'll turn around soon enough.

Anyways, if this does pass, what verses are gonna be upgraded first? Pokemon, Touhou, and Lord of the Rings have been talked about, but I'm curious as to what else is in the works.

 

[Trigger]

The first two are interesting. They don't seem to imply a "structural" continuity between the lower layer and the higher layer, so much as a "causal" continuity, so to speak, so that the fiction can rise to manifest in reality not through its own 'physicality' but solely due to the causal link between the two (E.g. 2747 raising to a higher narrative because the gaping void left behind by a work of fiction that doesn't exist anymore is, itself, a token of it and thus a condition for it to manifest). I wouldn't take holistic stuff like this as anti-feats, no.

Now, as for 3812: He does receive his capability to ascend to higher R>F layers from a being that itself exists in one of said higher layers, but this ability also allows it to ascend further beyond even the being he originally received it from, which muddles the issue, since it implies Ben somehow had the ability to empower a being to the point it transcended even himself (As well as authors above him, who logically would have written him into existence and thus gave him the ability to give 3812 that ability). So, yeah, it indeed makes no sense whatsoever on its own.


The latter? No. If the former denotes "You are superior to the concepts of space and time," then obviously it's 1-A, yes. I think a good example of this is this scan.

Although I frankly can't think of a single instance where "Beyond the concept of [cosmic thing]" would not be done in a context indicative of superiority, in general, unlike "Beyond space and time," which indeed has much lower of a bar, but I guess you can come up with a weird edge case where it doesn't mean superiority, if you want to.

So, would a character like Veldanava(true self) equate to R>F

It's very strange to see Ultima currently on the back foot with the vote tally, even if I'm confident it'll turn around soon enough.

Anyways, if this does pass, what verses are gonna be upgraded first? Pokemon, Touhou, and Lord of the Rings have been talked about, but I'm curious as to what else is in the works.

It really does feel weird.

 

[Eseseso]

It's very strange to see Ultima currently on the back foot with the vote tally, even if I'm confident it'll turn around soon enough.

Anyways, if this does pass, what verses are gonna be upgraded first? Pokemon, Touhou, and Lord of the Rings have been talked about, but I'm curious as to what else is in the works.

Wait, since when did Ultima begin losing?!

Also, how does Touhou get 1-A?

I don't doubt it, I'm just curious since literally all I know about Touhou is that Sakuya beat Dio in OMM and they have banger soundtracks.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

It's very strange to see Ultima currently on the back foot with the vote tally, even if I'm confident it'll turn around soon enough.

Wait, since when did Ultima begin losing?!

Since never. The four people who've voted against the thread are all ones who've already expressed significant opposition to this revision, in which they've been alone. Don't expect their side to receive that many more serious votes.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Would amount to little more than a nitpick, ngl. Though frankly I should've done that for the funnies, yeah.

Elaborate?

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's very strange to see Ultima currently on the back foot with the vote tally, even if I'm confident it'll turn around soon enough.

Probably just needs some time for the others to vote

Anyways, if this does pass, what verses are gonna be upgraded first? Pokemon, Touhou, and Lord of the Rings have been talked about, but I'm curious as to what else is in the works.

Pokémon I have no idea about. And also…

1-A Touhou

What is she cooking?

 

[Eseseso]

Probably just needs some time for the others to vote

Pokémon I have no idea about. And also…

What is she cooking?

1-A Arceus True Form goes brrr

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Elaborate?

Basically: The scan from Umineko about higher dimensions isn't part of a cosmology explanation, or anything of that sort. In-context, it's just a one-off witty retort that Ange (The character making the statement) did in response to Beatrice flaunting her infinite power. Otherwise, we see higher dimensions in other works set in the When They Cry verse, and they're explicitly different from the Meta-World layers.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Also, how does Touhou get 1-A?

Transdualism orange chicken with side order of nameless rice.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Now, as for 3812: He does receive his capability to ascend to higher R>F layers from a being that itself exists in one of said higher layers, but this ability also allows it to ascend further beyond even the being he originally received it from, which muddles the issue, since it implies Ben somehow had the ability to empower a being to the point it transcended even himself (As well as authors above him, who logically would have written him into existence and thus gave him the ability to give 3812 that ability). So, yeah, it indeed makes no sense whatsoever on its own.

I wouldn't consider this an anti-feat. Before reading this, I'd advise you to look at this cosmology diagram for SCP. There are authors SCP-3812 cannot transcend, chiefly among which is IS, an ultimate being of djkaktus's canon in the SCP multiverse that subsumes his narrative stack stack entirely, as well as the Swann entities, the authors governing the SCP mega-multiverse that created IS, so it does make sense for SCP-3812 to be able to transcend his immediate authors in his own canon, as IS and the Swann entities are enabling him.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Wait, since when did Ultima begin losing?!

Votes currently aren't in his favor. Like I said though, it'll turn around soon (I hope).

Also, how does Touhou get 1-A?

What is she cooking?

I stg I've mentioned this before in here lol

Touhou does have R > F stuff, which I had originally planned for getting the verse to 1-C alongside some other stuff (it was a very chaotic day in the Touhou revision server when Ultima's thread dropped). So I've been forced to reexamine the logic behind the R > F stuff from a new perspective to make sure it all fits within the new system. There are a lot of anti-feats, but those can hopefully be explained away with how the series explains the mechanics of things becoming more or less real depending on what conceptual state they're in, as well as how one achieves those states. Apart from that, it seems to meet every other criteria, although I won't know for certain until the new guidelines are written out and applied (and I get a chance to see where other verses succeed and fail).

Transdualism orange chicken with side order of nameless rice.

Nah, that's for something else entirely.

 

[Phoenks]

I think the entire opposition already voted

(Btw, even if this change still somehow gets rejected on VSBW I am gonna need it for FCOC)

 

[Agnaa]

Note that all four people who've expressed active opposition to Ultima have already voted. Make of that what you will.

I wonder what you mean by that.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

(Btw, even if this change still somehow gets rejected on VSBW I am gonna need it for FCOC)

Didn't FC/OC forbid all Tier 1 stuff? What happened to that.

it was a very chaotic day in the Touhou revision server when Ultima's thread dropped

Lowkey tempted to ask for an invite I'm ngl.

I wouldn't consider this an anti-feat. Before reading this, I'd advise you to look at this cosmology diagram for SCP. There are authors SCP-3812 cannot transcend, chiefly among which is IS, an ultimate being of djkaktus's canon in the SCP multiverse that subsumes his narrative stack stack entirely, as well as the Swann entities, the authors governing the SCP mega-multiverse that created IS, so it does make sense for SCP-3812 to be able to transcend his immediate authors in his own canon, as IS and the Swann entities are enabling him.

Yeah, I'm mulling over 3812's case myself, due to that and a few other factors I didn't consider at first.

 

[Eseseso]

Voting on the thread has officially started, and I'm going to be counting.

On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System

Alrighty, guys, it took way longer than I wanted but I finally finished that summary. [/QUOTE] The flaw becomes evident when considering whether the same rationale applies to souls existing on a spiritual plane. Transitioning from n to n+1 dimensions doesn't imbue a space with soul-like...

vsbattles.com

For reference, here's the opinions collected a while ago:

Note that all four people who've expressed active opposition to Ultima have already voted. Make of that what you will.

Seems like just the voting staff who agree with everything make this a 10-4 vote.

GG we won, now let's all go home.

Votes currently aren't in his favor. Like I said though, it'll turn around soon (I hope).


I stg I've mentioned this before in here lol

Touhou does have R > F stuff, which I had originally planned for getting the verse to 1-C alongside some other stuff (it was a very chaotic day in the Touhou revision server when Ultima's thread dropped). So I've been forced to reexamine the logic behind the R > F stuff from a new perspective to make sure it all fits within the new system. There are a lot of anti-feats, but those can hopefully be explained away with how the series explains the mechanics of things becoming more or less real depending on what conceptual state they're in, as well as how one achieves those states. Apart from that, it seems to meet every other criteria, although I won't know for certain until the new guidelines are written out and applied (and I get a chance to see where other verses succeed and fail).

Nah, that's for something else entirely.

Huh.

Never knew Dio's killer was that strong.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah, I'm mulling over 3812's case myself, due to that and a few other factors I didn't consider at first.

To be clear, I wasn't so much interested in 3812's case including extended canon and the like. Just how it was originally, as that makes for an interesting thought experiment.