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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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Ramasugita11 said:
Sorry to disturb your time
But, what do you think, will DC become 1A because there is this infinite higher-dimensional?
•Databook
•Hyperspace
DC has 6 layers of the world, not dimensions in general
•Here
Presence enters creation by manifesting himself as an avatar, in creation, he waits for living beings to shape his form, from the energy he gave to perpetua previously.
•The presence
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Btw, do you all agree with dc 1A?
 
Ultima_Reality said:
These two questions are related, so I'm grouping them together.

Anyway: Good question, yeah. You could conceivably have a "High 1-A+" tier that essentially serves as a capstone for the entire Tiering System and the highest you can possibly go before reaching Tier 0. In this case, it could be formulated as being just the collection of all possibilities, where Tier 0 is the pure actuality that serves as the grounding and foundation of all these possibilities, while not being, itself, one of them. Basically the set of all possible things that the Tier 0 can bring into existence, which, obviously, is a composited thing that excludes the Tier 0 itself.

You could associate this with a Maya/Brahman dichotomy, where, if the Monad is the dreamer, the High 1-A+ character/structure is essentially the framework of its dreaming itself, which contains all things that the Monad can dream. You could also say that, while High 1-A+ is the set of all possible combinations of characters and letters and sentences, Tier 0 is the thing outside of that (See here for an example of such a thing), which brings all of it into existence or at least serves as the basis of it.

A can imagine a few characters that'd qualify for that tier, and it'd have some interesting properties that differ it from lower tiers. For example, you can't be above High 1-A+ without being Tier 0. And you can also have only one High 1-A+ per verse (You can't exactly have multiple collections of all possibility). Overall good food for thought.
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So Maya is High 1-A since she defines the entirety of that said framework as she is the embodiment of the Creator’s “Dream.” Matteis told me that Pralaya transcends Maya as she is the embodiment of the Illusion. God contains both his Dream and the Illusions.
Ultima_Reality said:
Apologies, but my lawyer has advised me to not answer this question.
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Ha! Funny Guy!
Ultima_Reality said:
I'm open to discussing it further, if you'd like. If not here then elsewhere.
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Here is fine.
 
Robo432343 said:
🗿

presence block lvl

this guy negs presence
vsbattles.fandom.com

God (Seekers into the Mystery)

God is the central character of the graphic novel Seekers Into the Mystery, written by J.M DeMatteis. He is the ultimate reality and utmost source of all things, being the ocean of nothingness (And also of pure love) from which all of existence emanated, having been created so as to express...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
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He equates the Presence to the Magician. There’s no difference unless you’re talking about any version of the Presence other than Matteis or Carey.
 
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So reality-fiction transcendence automatically bare minimum is outerversal yes?
is it possible to get SDBH higher now?

I was also wondering how will this effect Self reference engine. Lowered to high hyper+?
 
TheGatememer said:
I'm gonna take a shot every time someone makes a CRT to upgrade SDBH to 1-A via Beats World.
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Mofos be missing out on the real qualitative superiority in Dragon Ball.
latest
beast-gohans-hair-is-so-big-that-it-broke-the-manga-panel-v0-39bl7wqh441c1.jpeg

wsds2b2tmuo91.jpg

main-qimg-d3c8bf3c8aa6fa7913ad4b92e118db79-lq
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Dragon Ball has R>F plus transcending dimensions, doesn't get more blatant than this.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
if it exceeds the duality between "Immortal" and "Non-Immortal" where at least one of those is 1-A and the other is lower.
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So non-monad transduality is high 1-A now, if the verse has atleast 1 qualitative superiority relating to that? For example, a character that is "above all forms of reality and unreality" and "is neither real nor not real, is neither something nor nothing," transcending all such states, would be high 1-A in a verse with atleast 1 Reality>Fiction/Unreality transcendence, right? And then if that character is part of a hierarchy thats completely different from the R>F hierarchy it would be a High-1A hierarchy?
 
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Elyartaker said:
I was actually thinking about that but I believe VSBW doesn't consider beats world R > F

Huh maybe in future who knows
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Among all the other counters, doesn't Demigra and the likes threaten Beat's and other types of "real worlds" in Dragon Ball. That would be a major anti-feat in this new system.
 
Everything12 said:
Among all the other counters, doesn't Demigra and the likes threaten Beat's and other types of "real worlds" in Dragon Ball. That would be a major anti-feat in this new system.
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I suppose but if a character transcends themselves or have a specific ability, it's not a anti feat from my understanding of reality-fiction transcendence page
unless the qualifications for this also changes
 
Ultima_Reality said:
A can imagine a few characters that'd qualify for that tier, and it'd have some interesting properties that differ it from lower tiers. For example, you can't be above High 1-A+ without being Tier 0. And you can also have only one High 1-A+ per verse (You can't exactly have multiple collections of all possibility). Overall good food for thought.
Click to expand...
Why couldn't you have multiple characters that are capable of affecting the collection of all possibilities?
Elyartaker said:
I suppose but if a character transcends themselves or have a specific ability, it's not a anti feat from my understanding of reality-fiction transcendence page
unless the qualifications for this also changes
Click to expand...
It's changing.
 
Jirachi_the_real_93 said:
Oh yeah this thing make sense. But if a cosmology is H1A+ can one or more characters scale to it?
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High 1-A+ is the framework of the entire verse that supports a Monadic system. This means if God is dreaming of everything then whoever scales completely to that “Dream” would be High 1-A+ due to embodying everything that Dream is.

This means you can not have multiple of those characters. So only one person would scale to the entirety of it, if it were a High 1-A+ structure.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
High 1-A+ is the framework of the entire verse that supports a Monadic system. This means if God is dreaming of everything then whoever scales completely to that “Dream” would be High 1-A+ due to embodying everything that Dream is.

This means you can not have multiple of those characters. So only one person would scale to the entirety of it, if it were a High 1-A+ structure.
Click to expand...
Scaling to =/= embodying.

And there's no fundamental limit on how many distinct characters embody something (i.e. individual concepts/timelines).
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
High 1-A+ is the framework of the entire verse that supports a Monadic system. This means if God is dreaming of everything then whoever scales completely to that “Dream” would be High 1-A+ due to embodying everything that Dream is.

This means you can not have multiple of those characters. So only one person would scale to the entirety of it, if it were a High 1-A+ structure.
Click to expand...
Ok, thank you
 
Enter_Bluey said:
For the last boss thing I just wanna ask, what part about the absorbing the Goddess's mana work makes it an anti-feat? I'm slow on the new stuff Cause yeah MC gains administration over the universe, then they start absorbing the universe and needed the goddess own power to even meet her. Since yeah everything is basically her power
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Bump to this question, since I know these characters can deviate or interact from the script the goddess lay as well in certain ways. If that relates to the absorbing her mana thing
 
Enter_Bluey said:
Bump to this question, since I know these characters can deviate or interact from the script the goddess lay as well in certain ways. If that relates to the absorbing her mana thing
Click to expand...
If I understand right, I think the anti-feat argument comes from the idea that they reach that level of power without external assistance from the goddess in question or characters like her.
 
Ben_CleverName said:
If I understand right, I think the anti-feat argument comes from the idea that they reach that level of power without external assistance from the goddess in question or characters like her.
Click to expand...
I see, well they do use her mana to reach the realm where she resides, just still not on her level of power yet. I was thinking it had to do with interacting with the mana in the first place
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
High 1-A+ is the framework of the entire verse that supports a Monadic system. This means if God is dreaming of everything then whoever scales completely to that “Dream” would be High 1-A+ due to embodying everything that Dream is.

This means you can not have multiple of those characters. So only one person would scale to the entirety of it, if it were a High 1-A+ structure.
Click to expand...
How does this work if the entire verse is lets say a single universe, and there exists a valid tier 0? Does scaling to the universe make you H1A+?
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
How does this work if the entire verse is lets say a single universe, and there exists a valid tier 0? Does scaling to the universe make you H1A+?
Click to expand...
The needed context for that as always to follow the route that Ultimate implemented. Like does it have R>F and the structures supporting some sort of framework that surpasses dimensionality and mathematics and contains all possibilities? If a “Universe” per se does have all that then you could argue for it.
 
How would we treat universes with short-cuts/passages (not different/alternative dimensions) that allow for FTL and/or time travel?

For example, warp space isn't an alternate universe, but it's mostly separate to the regular 3/4D universe, and vessels can 'drop' in and out of it (the same terminology used for Hyperspace travel in Star Wars, and Vortex travel in Doctor Who) for casual travel across decades and galaxies.
 
ByAsura said:
How would we treat universes with short-cuts/passages (not different/alternative dimensions) that allow for FTL and/or time travel?

For example, warp space isn't an alternate universe, but it's mostly separate to the regular 3/4D universe, and vessels can 'drop' in and out of it (the same terminology used for Hyperspace travel in Star Wars, and Vortex travel in Doctor Who) for casual travel across decades and galaxies.
Click to expand...
That sounds a bit unrelated to this whole revision, ngl.
 
It plays into a related question about complex dimensional/multiversal spaces (specifically from one of the largest, and most diverse cosmologies in all of fiction) that I'm going to ask later.

Plus, this is general discussion thread, and people have been asking about similarly unrelated topics for like the past 50 pages.
 
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Eh, those topics have seemed relevant to things that are plausibly changing under Ultima's proposed revisions.

But if this will play into something you'll ask later, go ahead.
 
ByAsura said:
How would we treat universes with short-cuts/passages (not different/alternative dimensions) that allow for FTL and/or time travel?

For example, warp space isn't an alternate universe, but it's mostly separate to the regular 3/4D universe, and vessels can 'drop' in and out of it (the same terminology used for Hyperspace travel in Star Wars, and Vortex travel in Doctor Who) for casual travel across decades and galaxies.
Click to expand...
It'll depend a lot on the specifications of the work itself.

Normally, warp spaces seem to be depicted as different spaces in which relativistic laws do not apply. If the laws of physics follow spatial continuity, it could be that a different spatial dimension might follow different rules that are different from the conventional space we interact with. If not, it might be possible to have some space regions that do not follow relativistic laws.

In the case of warp spaces that are like a different space with different laws of physics, it might be considered an extra spatial dimension, as if it were a parallel dimension that follows different rules. If they are just an odd region of regular space, it might all be considered the same conventional 4D space-time.

I know that at least Marvel has a very popular scene that explains hyperspace as being a higher-dimensional plane in a universe that allows for movement without taking into account relativistic laws.

The tiering for affecting the universe will all depend on how much of the universe is affected. Normally, I suppose we only assume the portion of the universe that is directly interacted with by the characters is affected, so it would need a mention that the hyperspace was affected in order to work. I for sure know that some fiction really fluctuates when inner-pocket spaces function or not, counting to "universal destruction.".
 
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