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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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Ultima_Reality said:
In the same way lasers are Lightspeed, I suppose. As in, a verse that represents the full gamut of the original Theory of Forms is certainly 1-A (And 0) under the proposals, but fiction so rarely depicts it correctly that "Platonic" might as well be of the same value as "laser," feat-wise.
Click to expand...
Outerversal Aslan enjoyers can breathe again
 
Ultima's thread is now the third-most viewed staff discussion in site history and is on track to become the most viewed.
vsbattles.com

Staff Discussion

Discussions regarding important wiki projects, policy or explanation page revisions and controversial revisions. Board activity is allowed for VS Battles wiki staff and highly trusted members only, unless stated otherwise. Derailing is heavily discouraged.
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Ultima_Reality said:
In the same way lasers are Lightspeed, I suppose. As in, a verse that represents the full gamut of the original Theory of Forms is certainly 1-A (And 0) under the proposals, but fiction so rarely depicts it correctly that "Platonic" might as well be of the same value as "laser," feat-wise.
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This won't stop people from finding a shred of the smallest resemblance to a Theory of Forms to celebrate their verse being Tier 1 however.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Ultima's thread is now the third-most viewed staff discussion in site history and is on track to become the most viewed.
vsbattles.com

Staff Discussion

Discussions regarding important wiki projects, policy or explanation page revisions and controversial revisions. Board activity is allowed for VS Battles wiki staff and highly trusted members only, unless stated otherwise. Derailing is heavily discouraged.
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Click to expand...
Eh… it should overtake the second most viewed, but probably not the first, seeing as the thread will likely be over soon.

For one thing, the current tally is so absurdly lopsided in Ultima’s favor, it’s not even funny.

For another thing, the few staff who haven’t voted (Armorchompy, Lordtracer, KLOL) seem very much on Ultima’s side and are upvoting all his arguments, so it’s not like the tides will turn in favor of the opposition.

Lastly, nothing new has been added amongst the most recent posts, as they’ve followed an exclusive pattern of [DT creates a series of “gotcha” arguments proving R>F isn’t beyond dimensionality, and Ultima points out how some of those examples don’t even follow the current standards for R>F, so the counter-examples hold little weight].

At this point, it’s a matter of how much Ultima’s willing to compromise and concede out of good will, because he has enough to push everything through right now. I think the opposition should move from trying to debunk Ultima’s greater arguments to appealing to him for as many concessions as possible.
 
I was never mocking you in the first place. You responded to an obviously sarcastic post about Platonic Forms being 1-A as though it wasn't sarcasm, so I responded with further sarcasm. Yeah, I could've just said "u right I was just joking" but I felt it was obvious enough.
 
Ben_CleverName said:
I was never mocking you in the first place. You responded to an obviously sarcastic post about Platonic Forms being 1-A as though it wasn't sarcasm, so I responded with further sarcasm. Yeah, I could've just said "u right I was just joking" but I felt it was obvious enough.
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As a moderator who has to constantly deal with derailing, I've become easily irked by even the slightest hint of such and tend to respond in the most deadpan of ways.
ProfectusInfinity said:
Eh… it should overtake the second most viewed, but probably not the first, seeing as the thread will likely be over soon.

For one thing, the current tally is so absurdly lopsided in Ultima’s favor, it’s not even funny.

For another thing, the few staff who haven’t voted (Armorchompy, Lordtracer, KLOL) seem very much on Ultima’s side and are upvoting all his arguments, so it’s not like the tides will turn in favor of the opposition.

Lastly, nothing new has been added amongst the most recent posts, as they’ve followed an exclusive pattern of [DT creates a series of “gotcha” arguments proving R>F isn’t beyond dimensionality, and Ultima points out how some of those examples don’t even follow the current standards for R>F, so the counter-examples hold little weight].

At this point, it’s a matter of how much Ultima’s willing to compromise and concede out of good will, because he has enough to push everything through right now. I think the opposition should move from trying to debunk Ultima’s greater arguments to appealing to him for as many concessions as possible.
Click to expand...
"Conceding out of good will" isn't something I would want Ultima to do, as I wholeheartedly agree with all of his points. That being said, the pace at which this thread racks up views will likely let it overtake the Roshi thread too, which I know from repeatedly watching its progress, as Ultima hasn't talked with Agnaa yet.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
As a moderator who has to constantly deal with derailing, I've become easily irked by even the slightest hint of such and tend to respond in the most deadpan of ways.
Click to expand...
That's understandable, I imagine that sort of thing would be annoying if it was a genuine argument someone was making, but I thought my use of emojis was what indicated the sarcasm. I've genuinely never seen anyone use 😤 to convey a serious tone... but yeah, either way, I'm not trying to start any fights here.

IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
"Conceding out of good will" isn't something I would want Ultima to do, as I wholeheartedly agree with all of his points. That being said, the pace at which this thread racks up views will likely let it overtake the Roshi thread too, which I know from repeatedly watching its progress, as Ultima hasn't talked with Agnaa yet.
Click to expand...
I agree that there isn't any reason for Ultima to try and compromise here. He's refuted all of DT's arguments by this point and a lot of DT's arguments are essentially the same few arguments being repeated over and over, something which Ultima himself even points out. I'm just wondering how much longer the thread is going to last and whether or not Agnaa's arguments will be different here.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Ultima's thread is now the third-most viewed staff discussion in site history and is on track to become the most viewed.
vsbattles.com

Staff Discussion

Discussions regarding important wiki projects, policy or explanation page revisions and controversial revisions. Board activity is allowed for VS Battles wiki staff and highly trusted members only, unless stated otherwise. Derailing is heavily discouraged.
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...
I'm actually more surprised by how high Roshi's Feat is. I wonder which revision could surpass that... If not even such a drastic revision in the Tiering system can...
 
@Ultima_Reality What does Agnaa mean here?
vsbattles.com

On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System

I do not care about this at all, assuming that it's a purely lexical change with nothing else supplanting the old term. "All" is so extremely broad that I do not support this. I don't really care too much, there's only 89 pages here. Which isn't so few that I'm certain, nor is it so many that I...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
@Ultima_Reality What does Agnaa mean here?
vsbattles.com

On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System

I do not care about this at all, assuming that it's a purely lexical change with nothing else supplanting the old term. "All" is so extremely broad that I do not support this. I don't really care too much, there's only 89 pages here. Which isn't so few that I'm certain, nor is it so many that I...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...
That debate on Discord was about the topic of whether fiction is absolute nothingness or not. I've long shaved that off my arguments, though, since they refined a bit further as the thread progressed.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
That debate on Discord was about the topic on whether fiction is absolute nothingness or not. I've long shaved that off my arguments, though, since they refined further as the thread progressed.
Click to expand...
How do you plan on talking with Agnaa once your debate with DT subsides?
 
Ultima_Reality said:
🤷 God only knows. I'll see if Agnaa has anything to add that DontTalk hasn't already said. Regardless of whether he does or not, we'll eventually just wrap it up and cast it to the votes.
Click to expand...
By ProfectusInfinity's tally, the support you have is overwhelming.
ProfectusInfinity said:
I just thought I'd create a tally of the current progress, if no one minds.

Agree​

Antvasima (Agrees as long as the new tiers have detailed requirements)​

Ultima_Reality (Thread Starter)​

DarkDragonMedeus (Agrees with 1-A being the tier for qualitative superiorities to dimensionality, initially neutral on R>F being 1-A by default before eventually agreeing with it too)​

DarkGrath (Agreed with everything at first, failed to change her mind after hearing the counters)​

Elizhaa (Agrees with everything)​

Sir_Ovens (Agrees with everything)​

Andytrenom (Agrees with 1-A being the tier for qualitative superiorities to dimensionality, disagrees with R>F being 1-A by default)​

Everything12 (Agrees with everything)​

Planck69 (Agrees with everything)​

CrimsonStarFallen (Agrees with everything)​

Theglassman12 (Agrees with everything)​

IdiosyncraticLawyer (Thinks productive changes should result from the CRT, defends all of Ultima's points)​

Phoenks (Agrees with everything)​

Executor_N0 (Agrees that Ultima's post reveals how the current system fails to effectively encompass all of fiction)​

CloverDragon03 (Agrees with everything)​

Neutral​

Crabwhale (Ain't reading allat)​

KLOL506 (Asked some questions, hasn't voted himself)​

AbaddonTheDisappointment (Asked some questions, hasn't voted himself)​

Disagree​

DontTalkDT (Thinks the notion of composite hierarchies already addresses Ultima's concerns regarding R>F equalization)​

Agnaa (Disagrees with everything)​

Qawsedf234 (Thinks it's unnecessary to create a new system aimed at categorizing all of fiction effectively, as such is impossible)​

Deagonx (R>F is simply better off likened to a single dimensional jump than something beyond dimensional scale)​



Yeesh... I knew this vote would end up lopsided, but this is an absolute slaughter in favor of Ultima💀.
Click to expand...
 
what does this get?

Feat: a book absorb people into a story and force them to follow the plot.
The reader can communicate with the real characters who were trapped .
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
The first thing is right, the second is wrong.
Click to expand...
SCP won't be tier 0 anymore? Why?
EL_xWatcher1234x said:
what does this get?

Feat: a book absorb people into a story and force them to follow the plot.
The reader can communicate with the real characters who were trapped .
Click to expand...
This is kinda unrelated to the thread but
I'd say it gives the book subjective reality that can affect 3D beings and Plot manipulation on a Tier 11 scale unless the plot manipulation can work on 3D beings while they're 3D.
 
Y'all would have to elaborate more on that cuz I don't get it. Make a page explaining Tier 0 for dummies when time comes.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:

Apeiron - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org

Wuji (philosophy) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org

Divine simplicity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org

Apophatic theology - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org

Śūnyatā - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org

Goku - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
here you go buddy
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My reaction to that information (I'm literally the volcano head guy)
All I'm hearing is that Goku solos and that Swirl of the root is Tier 0.
 
Deidalius said:
Y'all would have to elaborate more on that cuz I don't get it. Make a page explaining Tier 0 for dummies when time comes.
Click to expand...
It's very easy to understand.

Let me ask you a question, do you think God is omnipotent?

If you say yes. Then you are wrong, God isn't omnipotent. He is beyond omnipotent.

"That- doesn't makes any sense isn't it?"

Yes, you are right. In the beginning- if you can even makes sense of God, then it is not God.

There was a saying in Daoism, "If you understand the Dao, then it is not Dao." God never never was meant to be understood, because he is beyond the attributes of "understanding".

And because "Omnipotent" is an attribute, a concept. And you cannot attributes any concept to God, because he is completely beyond any attributes and concept.

God is not all-knowing, he is not omnipotent neither he is all-mighty.

Because he is beyond such concepts.

No amount of greatest and marvelous words in any languages can describe God.

Because he will never be described by anyone or even anything, even the word "God" itself is not truly "Him". Because "God" is an attribute, and in truth "He" is beyond "God".



Tldr, God is beyond any concept. And can't be described by any concept.

And that how you reach tier 0.
 
Rakih_Elyan said:
It's very easy to understand.

Let me ask you a question, do you think God is omnipotent?

If you say yes. Then you are wrong, God isn't omnipotent. He is beyond omnipotent.

"That- doesn't makes any sense isn't it?"

Yes, you are right. In the beginning- if you can even makes sense of God, then it is not God.

There was a saying in Daoism, "If you understand the Dao, then it is not Dao." God never never was meant to be understood, because he is beyond the attributes of "understanding".

And because "Omnipotent" is an attribute, a concept. And you cannot attributes any concept to God, because he is completely beyond any attributes and concept.

God is not all-knowing, he is not omnipotent neither he is all-mighty.

Because he is beyond such concepts.

No amount of greatest and marvelous words in any languages can describe God.

Because he will never be described by anyone or even anything, even the word "God" itself is not truly "Him". Because "God" is an attribute, and in truth "He" is beyond "God".



Tldr, God is beyond any concept. And can't be described by any concept.

And that how you reach tier 0.
Click to expand...
Bro Tier 0 just is Omnipotence. No point in overcomplicating it.
 
Rakih_Elyan said:
Kek, no need for negative theology then?
Click to expand...
A form of negative theology is embedded into the definition of Tier 0 because a being with all the properties I've listed (Undifferentiated, Uncaused, Unconditioned, etc) would indeed not be capable of being defined or described in direct fashion (Save by analogy, like I explained on the thread), but I think calling it "beyond omnipotence" is silly. I'd moreso define that state as omnipotence.
 
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