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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
SCP has enough R>f for everything below Tier 0 to stay the same, but under Ultima's new system, all of their Tier 0 characters would be downgraded to High 1-A, as nothing in the verse is a true Monad.
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depending on how things go the verse might just be High 1-B+ maximum since the narratives (placeholder) are explicitly dimensioned with higher narratives having higher dimensions of time or space than previous one
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
depending on how things go the verse might just be High 1-B+ maximum since all the narratives are explicitly dimensioned with higher narratives having higher dimensions of time or space than previous one
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That's completely invalid. SCP explicitly makes a distinction between physical dimensions and narrative dimensions, and the latter are explicitly superior to the former by default.
Reality is no different from the physical; that is to say, it is one more way to describe order in the universe. Where the physical can be used to describe things and places, and the temporal can describe moments and periods, reality can be used to describe the completeness of the universe, its fallibility and its overall construction. With that said, just as there are no doubt higher physical dimensions that we cannot perceive or access, there is no reason to believe that the same could not apply to reality. Reality as we perceive it is no more than one tier in the hierarchy of organization that dictates the construction of our existence, and there are likely others above and below ours. Just like an entity in the 4th spatial dimension might perceive our universe and its contents as a whole, and could manipulate those contents from a realm of higher energy, so could an entity with access to a higher metaphysical dimension manipulate the very architecture of our reality, all at once, from a similar realm of higher energy.
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DT's last reply makes sense in a way I share similar concerns in regards to what else should be straightened in the new system.

Specially in regards to simulation with limitations etc or dreams inside human mind. Which is something still R>F yet there is a clear limitation unless stated otherwise. So yeah putting the limitations of things like BDE, Transduality NEP etc etc but not on dimension does raises some question
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
DT's last reply makes sense in a way I share similar concerns in regards to what else should be straightened in the new system.

Specially in regards to simulation with limitations etc or dreams inside human mind. Which is something still R>F yet there is a clear limitation unless stated otherwise. So yeah putting the limitations of things like BDE, Transduality NEP etc etc but not on dimension does raises some question
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I do somewhat have to agree on that, because the only way I see Ultima's proposal kinda working in a vacuum where the notion of verse equalization where all tiers are bound by some form of dimensionality as a axiom is changed entirely. But out of the vacuum it does lead to more of the qualitative superiorty definition in Ultima's proposal to have that tier 0 exploit.
 
Ikelaggan said:
I do somewhat have to agree on that, because the only way I see Ultima's proposal kinda working in a vacuum where the notion of verse equalization where all tiers are bound by some form of dimensionality as a axiom is changed entirely. But out of the vacuum it does lead to more of the qualitative superiorty definition in Ultima's proposal to have that tier 0 exploit.
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At that point just add more tiers or rewrite tiers.
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
DT's last reply makes sense in a way I share similar concerns in regards to what else should be straightened in the new system.

Specially in regards to simulation with limitations etc or dreams inside human mind. Which is something still R>F yet there is a clear limitation unless stated otherwise. So yeah putting the limitations of things like BDE, Transduality NEP etc etc but not on dimension does raises some question
Click to expand...
Kirigaya Kazuto Tier 1 for R > F difference with Kirito let's goooo
 
I almost completely agree with ultima's proposal for R>F and Beyond Dimensional Existence having such a grand tier... But let's be real, not all authors are well aware of such concepts such as a hierarchy dimensions, so simply making a character whom claims to be 'beyond all dimensions' Tier 1-A simply because it is stated to be beyond dimensions doesn't make sense.
Let's take for example:
If a character in SpongeBob is quoted to be beyond dimensions, we are not sure as to what the authors mean by that, he(it) would simply fall under the  Unknown or a Low 2-C Tier.

Why?
Because the authors had never given prior notice or even given an example of what a dimension means in the verse. It could mean anything really, like alternate realities or alternate spaces. We cannot jump to conclusions that it is a higher dimension.

So, in what way would R>F and Beyond Dimensional Existence qualify for Ultima's proposal?
At the minimum, a verse should have explicits statements of higher dimensions, or planes that trivializes the last.
An Example:
The DC Multiverse. Explicit statements about the 1st to the 6th dimension, the DC multiverse would qualify for Beyond Dimensional Existence. Simply because it has been shown that the authors have a minimum understanding as to what the hierarchy of dimensions entails.

Not convinced?
Many may not be convinced, but let's think of it like this: suppose an author (that understand dimensionality) says the character he had created is beyond all dimensions, this shows that he(or she) intends to tell the viewer or reader, that the character transcends the very concept of dimensionality in total. That is no matter how many dimensions, infinite and beyond, said character completely and utterly transcends it.
 
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Isn't the part you want to add in kind of what we already do? Dimensions is an ambiguous term in fiction.

TBH, not sure just saying you're beyond dimensions while showing a hierarchy of dimensions is enough evidence. First, without further context, being "beyond dimensions" can just mean beyond dimensions within the verse. Second, even if the verse makes clear that beyond dimensions means beyond even dimensions the verse doesn't show, that doesn't necessarily mean beyond absolutely all dimensions 100% no matter what size at all. Really, I feel we should be looking for evidence as to what it is beyond specifically to avoid vague "beyond everything" statements (given DontTalkDT has thoroughly shown how sufficiently strong R>F can be reasonably lowballed to Type 2/3 concepts or Type 1 concepts that don't cover literally all sizes, I agree even R>F should be treated to what is shown or explicitly given).
 
That's pretty much how it is before tho.
Before we assume based o. What's available in fiction and of course the author will be discreet about that either in interview or in story explanation.

Leaving in vague will of course gets ge lowest interpretation.
 
Flowman777 said:
Isn't the part you want to add in kind of what we already do? Dimensions is an ambiguous term in fiction.

TBH, not sure just saying you're beyond dimensions while showing a hierarchy of dimensions is enough evidence. First, without further context, being "beyond dimensions" can just mean beyond dimensions within the verse. Second, even if the verse makes clear that beyond dimensions means beyond even dimensions the verse doesn't show, that doesn't necessarily mean beyond absolutely all dimensions 100% no matter what size at all. Really, I feel we should be looking for evidence as to what it is beyond specifically to avoid vague "beyond everything" statements (given DontTalkDT has thoroughly shown how sufficiently strong R>F can be reasonably lowballed to Type 2/3 concepts or Type 1 concepts that don't cover literally all sizes, I agree even R>F should be treated to what is shown or explicitly given).
Click to expand...
Sorry. I do not understand you. Can u be my explicit?
 
Trigger said:
I almost completely agree with ultima's proposal for R>F and Beyond Dimensional Existence having such a grand tier... But let's be real, not all authors are well aware of such concepts such as a hierarchy dimensions, so simply making a character whom claims to be 'beyond all dimensions' Tier 1-A simply because it is stated to be beyond dimensions doesn't make sense.
Let's take for example:
If a character in SpongeBob is quoted to be beyond dimensions, we are not sure as to what the authors mean by that, he(it) would simply fall under the  Unknown or a Low 2-C Tier.

Why?
Because the authors had never given prior notice or even given an example of what a dimension means in the verse. It could mean anything really, like alternate realities or alternate spaces. We cannot jump to conclusions that it is a higher dimension.

So, in what way would R>F and Beyond Dimensional Existence qualify for Ultima's proposal?
At the minimum, a verse should have explicits statements of higher dimensions, or planes that trivializes the last.
An Example:
The DC Multiverse. Explicit statements about the 1st to the 6th dimension, the DC multiverse would qualify for Beyond Dimensional Existence. Simply because it has been shown that the authors have a minimum understanding as to what the hierarchy of dimensions entails.

Not convinced?
Many may not be convinced, but let's think of it like this: suppose an author (that understand dimensionality) says the character he had created is beyond all dimensions, this shows that he(or she) intends to tell the viewer or reader, that the character transcends the very concept of dimensionality in total. That is no matter how many dimensions, infinite and beyond, said character completely and utterly transcends it.
Click to expand...
Dimensions are not hierarchical in the first place, 4D being bigger than 3D doesn't imply a hierarchy, it's just bigger because there are more dimensions🗿
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
All these people saying this verse will be 1-A that verse will be 1-A when majority of those actually breach a requirement that would render their R>F not qualified for the R>F Ultima is proposing
Click to expand...
Pretty confident in my verse at least. The difference is pretty qualitative.
 
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