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TF2 Downgrades Part 3

Reposting what I said on the previous thread:

What are the general conclusions of this thread, if I may ask? I feel as if there's a bit of a split between Weekly/DDM and basically everyone else on this thread, and while the two users seem to suggest that this topic is good and done, there was an abundance of bluename and staff input that seem to go against this. I feel like applying the revisions hastily might be harmful; while getting this done with quickly would be great, I'd rather that be done when there is a general consensus.
 
I don't think you can say thats a consensus given all the contention on the thread and fhat were on #3. I think he more wants a summary of the arguments. It'd be helpful for me too.

I have some issues with what you said there, but I'll wait for a summary first.
 
So that gives me an idea of what you and DDM are putting forward here. Another summary from dissenting users would be very helpful.
 
Thus far the consensus is:

  • Mercs get downgraded to 9-B (Scaling from Scout's rocket feat, Soldier's Rocket Jump feat, Pyro's explosion tanking feat, etc.), 9-A/8-C with weapons capable of vaporization. 9-A/8-C does not scale to anyone regularly, just with those weapons.
  • Saxton and the Yeti remain 9-A for their own feats and scaling vastly above the mercs
 
Lots of the blue names are reiterating the points already contended.

Also, Mercs speed feats are questionable due to scaling real-life rocket speeds to game speeds, to add on to what Weekly posted.

People tried to argue that they were valid with a Spy feat I debunked, and a Saxton feat that is questionable but still wouldn't scale to anyone else.
 
Didn't Bambu and DMUA disagree with Rocket Jumping's calc?
 
They disagreed with using Soldier's surface area to find durability, not with the calc itself which still ended up being Wall level
 
WeeklyBattles said:
They disagreed with using Soldier's surface area to find durability, not with the calc itself which still ended up being Wall level
Click to expand...
I'll contact them about it.
 
May as well start off with what I've got issue with. Idk if it's been gone over though

  • 9-A/8-C with weapons capable of vaporization
These weapons aren't any stronger though, you can take hits from them just fine. It's not like the cow mangler's gonna 1 shot everyone, hell the manmelter is just awful rn. It's an inaccurate categorization.

  • Saxton and the Yeti remain 9-A for their own feats and scaling vastly above the mercs
The Heavy matched Saxton Hale though. Plus, he shouldn't be above average for any true Australian, and as a child, Sniper could hurt those Australians by throwing rocks at them.
 
Heavy never matched Saxton; he only engaged in a tug of war with Margaret, Saxton's assistant/girlfriend/whatever.
 
Yare yare...okay, these arguments have been brought up and debunked several times in the past threads but i'll summarize them again

1. It makes no logical sense for the Mercs to be able to take hits from weapons and at the same time get vaporized by them. That on top of the fact that they are consistently in injured by or killed by 9-B feats and weapons.

2. Heavy did not match Hale, Hale casually overpowered both him and Scout simultaneously while he (Hale) was weakened, and Margaret, Saxton's assistant, overpowered Heavy casually in a tug of war match
 
If mercs get damaged by weapons, it should be the wepons that scale to them, and not the other way around. Plus, bullets do piercing damage. The mercs could very well be 9-A with their weapons still being able to harm each other.

We still have yet to account for spells, which all mercs can use and tank.
 
The Mercs get damaged by 9-B weapons and vaporized by 9-A weapons. The Merce have no 9-A feats so no, their weapons arent able to harm 9-As

Which spells?
 
It's almost as if, if mercs can tank 9-A weapons, they might be 9-A.

I'll comment extensively later.
 
  • It makes no logical sense for the Mercs to be able to take hits from weapons and at the same time get vaporized by them. That on top of the fact that they are consistently in injured by or killed by 9-B feats and weapons.
>expecting logic fom tf2

It's weird but it is what happens. Makes about as much sense as weapons gibbing them but also not instakilling, and yet we're using that, so...

  • Heavy did not match Hale, Hale casually overpowered both him and Scout simultaneously while he (Hale) was weakened, and Margaret, Saxton's assistant, overpowered Heavy casually in a tug of war match
Not really. Scout tells heavy to let go, and Margaret is also an Australian who fought shit with Hale back in their heyday. This also didn't account for Sniper hurting Australians with rocks.
 
The Cow Mangler is a terrible weapon, since when did it one shot everyone?
 
Since they decided to make it vaporize people, making it functionally more powerful than most weapons in the game
 
Cow mangler isn't terrible with random crits off, then it's just stock with infinite ammo

Considering that he grew up in Australia, including becoming an adult, and how everyone seems totally fight obsessed due to the Australia, it seems pretty impossible to not have thrown rocks at an adult at some point. Besides, if they're getting stronger as they age, why not sniper?
 
  • Since they decided to make it vaporize people, making it functionally more powerful than most weapons in the game
It is just as powerful as others though. Show some examples of regular mangler shots doing more damage than other ones. You'd think soldier wouldn't use it if he was gonna kill himself with the rocket jumping.

Things can be different levels of 9-A just fine. It's also survivable with the right resistance stacking, since it's like 600 or so damage. Giant robots can survive sentry busters, you can shoot those to death, and things like the sniper rifles actually hit harder than it.
 
Wok. The vaporization yield is higher than the yield of the Sentry Buster. It makes no sense for them to be oneshot by the Sentry Buster but be able to survive one shot from a weapon that vaporizes them
 
Cool. It be like that sometimes. I've calced the dumpster Ballistic shot at Leviathan (Worm) being 8-C in its KE, but since it stopped Leviathan's charge we just scale it up. This seems like it'd be similar.

There's also how there's more vaporization guns than sentry busters, even if you discount the machina since it's a sniper rifle.
 
It is not similar. It is an outlier at best and an inconsistency at worst for them to be oneshot by a 9-A weapon but be able to tank an 8-C weapon. Seriously this is not that hard to understand.
 
Yes it was agreed that MvM is stronger than them normally and as such would be a seprate key
 
  • It is not similar. It is an outlier at best and an inconsistency at worst for them to be oneshot by a 9-A weapon but be able to tank an 8-C weapon. Seriously this is not that hard to understand.
Not when they're more consistently tanking the 8-C. Also isn't vaporization 9-A? I thought 8-C was atomization.
 
Scaling the mercs to a weapon that can vaporize them is like scaling a human to a car because you can be hit by a car and possibly survive
 
Winston didn't vaporise Reaper, he's literally walking dust.

But that's beside the point.
 
We would scale humans to cars if humans had a 100% chance of surviving a hit from them, which the mercs do with several weapons that vaporize.
 
They get vaporized. They get oneshot by weapons weaker than the things that vaporize them. They get consistently killed by 9-B weapons. No amount of semantics you try to argue to get them to scale to the 9-A weapons will change these facts.
 
Also just realized that the sentry busters are survivable without MvM exclusive stuff. Batallions backup on a dalakos heavy, or dalakos+Fists of Steel, or throw in the vaccinator, etc.

Hell, FoS+Dalakos isn't even a thing you need a teammate to help you for. You'd also be able to tank Machina headshots, which is the strongest of the vaporizing guns.
 
Should Saxton and the Yeti scale above the MvM mercs then? Because Saxton was already aware of the capabilities of the robots, yet he rather fought the Yeti instead of helping the mercs - which more or less implies that the Yeti was worth his time, while the robots weren't.
 
Saxton is also crazy. I feel like he should be stronger than them generally but idk if that's the best thing specifically.
 
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