This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Hello everyone. Today I want to revise the speed rating in tensura for digital lifeforms, which was downgraded in this thread.
Note: This thread is only for Infinite Speed, do not try to argue for a higher rating like Immeasurable.
Special thanks to @RaikiKurohane99 for helping with the translations on discord. Table of Contents
Conclusion from Previous Thread
The conclusion from the previous thread was that Digital Lifeforms were not "moving" but "teleporting".
But that is wrong, because for "Teleporting", under the general definition of VSBW, they would have to:
Skip the Distance and obstacles between their initial point and destination (so they cannot hit anything in-between their destination and initial point)
Their movement in-between cannot be observed as they're skipping distance
The ability to move instantaneously from one location to another without physically occupying the space in between.
Main Counters
Let's start by using Point 1 to counter the Teleportation theory.
Basically, we already know that to move in Suspended World, you need to be a Digital Lifeform.
It feels like the “information particles” that should be at different coordinates are transferring “information” between each other with zero time lag.
Regardless of how much distance there is, if they are “information particles” existing within the recognizable space, then the time lag is zero. In other words, “information particles” are transcending space time. Our conversation as well is established by utilizing the information transfer between these “information particles.”
Then, how can we move? Could it be that this…?
《If it is a spiritual lifeform, then by transforming all matter into “information particles,” it is reaching (becoming) an information lifeform (Digital Nature), perhaps.》 V19C4
And according to the downgrade, that means they'd always be teleporting whenever they move (since their 0-time lag movement, which is what allows them to move in suspended world, is considered teleportation by the previous downgrade). However, that's where the problem comes in, because even in Suspended World, beings "teleporting" is actually called teleportation, rather than being classified as normal movement by digital lifeforms.
To perform “Spatial Transfer” in the midst of the “Stopped World” is something incomprehensible even to Dagruel. If it were within the visible range, that would still be one thing, but to come pinpoint from a distant land is an act that is extremely beyond common sense. V21C1
Ramiris’s appearance was an unexpected piece of good fortune. Thanks to that, I am also safe like this. I look at Zegion. He too has become strong as if he were a different person. Even within stopped time, the fact that he can come this far using “Spatial Transfer” shows that he seems to have obtained quite an outrageous power. I think it’s good that this guy is an ally, but even so, he lacks power to face Veldanava. It is thought that even Zegion would be unable to deal with direct interference with the “soul.” Volume 23
Although she was worried about the labyrinth, “Please be at ease. Within stopped time, there is nothing that can be done. Rather than that, there should also be something you can be useful for,” Zegion admonished her. Thinking that was reasonable, Ramiris accepted it and followed Zegion. That Zegion could perform “Spatial Transfer” within stopped time.
"He’s quite dangerous," Ramiris trembled. However, the real trembling would come immediately after this. It seemed they followed Rimuru’s presence, but upon arriving at the destination, they were surprised. Volume 23
Yuuki said with a wry smile. And so as not to miss the chance that Shion created at the risk of her life, he activated “Instant Movement,” aiming for Jahil’s chest. Even within this “Stopped World,” as long as it is within visible range, “Instant Movement” can be used proficiently. The moment Yuuki appeared, he activated his secret technique at maximum output.
If I’m going to stall for time anyway, I should delay the start time of the battle even a little. Just as I was about to praise myself, thinking “that’s a really good idea,” a man who looked exactly like Feldway was standing before my eyes.
“Uwa, ‘Instant Movement’!?”
I hurriedly evaded. The moment Veldanava performed “Instant Movement,” he swung his arm aiming for my head. If I had been even a little slower, my neck would have been cut off.
If I had been careless, it would have been the end. I am grateful for Ciel san’s warning.“Even if your head were separated, it would be fine.” Volume 23
It was the moment when my “Dragon Demon Sword” displayed an outrageous sharpness. Unfortunately, Veldanava reacted instantly and avoided it with “Instant Movement” faster than being cut by the sword. I didn’t think it would end with this, so it felt like, “well, of course.” However, it was good news that the power of my sword was magnificent.
“...It’s been a while since I was truly surprised. That sword even though it’s not something I created it possesses power equivalent to Genesis-class, doesn’t it?”
“Genesis class? Well, I don’t really know, but there’s no doubt it’s an amazing sword. It was forged by my proud comrades it's like a part of myself!”
Since being praised didn’t feel bad, I answered honestly. Volume 23
Now to Point 2, which is that if they are Teleporting, they have to skip any obstacle in-between.
But that's where it becomes clear that it's not teleportation that Information Particles are doing; They can, for instance, be trapped in a Prison:
Testarossa took time to construct a cage using “Nothingness.” She confined Twilight inside it and cut off the connection with the outside of the cage. At the very moment she burned it away with “White Flare,” she observed the movement of “information particles,” and probably confirmed and grasped the main body inside Velzard. Because Guy did the same thing, he correctly understood the meaning of Testarossa’s actions. V22C1
Such that if they try to go outside it, the information on them would be erased because they come in contact with the Void energy:
Testarossa took time to construct a cage using “Nothingness.” She confined Twilight inside it and cut off the connection with the outside of the cage. At the very moment she burned it away with “White Flare,” she observed the movement of “information particles,” and probably confirmed and grasped the main body inside Velzard. Because Guy did the same thing, he correctly understood the meaning of Testarossa’s actions. V22C1
“Nothingness” devours even “information particles.” To put it more precisely, it erases the information written into the “information particles.”
No matter what kind of commands they are, if they cannot be transmitted, they are meaningless. Even if it is information that is instantaneously synchronized by leaping beyond time and space, if the “information particles” themselves into which that information is written are interfered with…
“Impossible… my.. my heart core isn’t responding…?”
“Of course, right? I kept you company many times, but I’m starting to get bored of playing with you. So now, it’s time to end this.”
Leaving those words behind, Testarossa’s “thought” departed. Twilight’s thought domain became lonely once again.
(Huh? You’re saying this white darkness is all Nothingness? Impossible!? There’s no way that could be true !!)
To begin with, “Nothingness” is already difficult to control, and yet to dominate it to the extent that it fills space, even if it is isolated there is no one, at least as far as Twilight knows, who can do such a thing. V22C1
Not to mention, they can be fired at and hit a target, and they can also reflect off the surroundings:
Then, if one tries to convey their will to a third party in this “stopped world”—
“It is enough to place your will onto ‘information particles’ and strike them against the other party.”
It’s a rough way of putting it, but I understood well. Since Ciel san has become able to interfere with “information particles,” replying is possible. To begin with, the reason I am able to “see” the surrounding situation right now is also because I am reflecting “information particles.” V19C4
This is simply not possible if they are teleporting. They would skip any obstacle if they were teleporting, so there wouldn't be any bumping/bouncing (required for reflection) or hitting something, anything.
Some might say "they can teleport near the target, quickly fetch the information, and teleport it back", but this has 2 huge issues:
There would be a Time lag, no matter how small, because while the Teleportation would be instantaneous, the process of sending/receiving in this way absolutely wouldn't be.
They have to do this even when getting information for Vision and location from the surroundings, so they shouldn't even be able to teleport near X thing (say, a moving enemy; a fellow digital lifeform) because they wouldn't know where they are at.
Due to the above two points, they also wouldn't be able to maintain a uniform vision due to the lag outside of teleporting, they'd always be perceiving things that have already happened.
Conversations, by default, wouldn't scale to perception speed, so they won't be able to have an instantaneous mental conversation where they have to decipher the information they receive, and then process and decide on an answer, and send it.
But both of these assumptions are the exact opposite of what actually happens.
There is no time lag between information transmission using Data Particles, as in, there's 0 timelag.
The particles can hit specific things, such as their enemy, and form a unified offensive-defensive fight.
They can maintain a uniform instantaneous vision.
Their conversations are instantaneous (Ciel and Rimuru).
1
It feels like the “information particles” that should be at different coordinates are transferring “information” between each other with zero time lag.
Regardless of how much distance there is, if they are “information particles” existing within the recognizable space, then the time lag is zero. In other words, “information particles” are transcending space time. Our conversation as well is established by utilizing the information transfer between these “information particles.”
Then, how can we move? Could it be that this…?
《If it is a spiritual lifeform, then by transforming all matter into “information particles,” it is reaching (becoming) an information lifeform (Digital Nature), perhaps.》 V19C4
Well then, as for Chloe and Michael’s actual ability, this was quite evenly matched. Since it cannot be grasped accurately, this becomes an inference, but it is thought that even in terms of physical ability they are equal. Or rather, it should be said that their power to interfere with “information particles” is equal.
Since the maximum value of speed is fixed, what determines superiority or inferiority becomes the ability to interfere with oneself. How skillfully one can control the “information particles” and surpass the opponent that is likely the important point in the “stopped world.”
And there are a few more points I noticed while observing. First, that in the “stopped world” there is no such concept as defensive power. If they are ones who can move like Chloe and Michael, then by interfering with each other’s “information particles,” combat in which offense and defense are unified is established. V19C4
That was, in a word, tremendous. This is a fact that became clear while watching the battle, but it seems that “the movement speed of information particles is constant.”
Conversation was possible, and even the reaction speed of vision was uniform. This was a clear physical phenomenon, to about the same degree as “nothing can exceed the speed of light.”
If that is the case, then why do the “information particles” exceed the speed of light? V19C4
Since Ciel san has become able to interfere with “information particles,” it is possible for her to respond.
To begin with, the reason I am currently able to “see” the surrounding situation is also because “information particles” are being reflected. Whether the movement speed of “information particles” in this “stopped world” is constant or not those various things are points of curiosity, but it seems that conversation can be established, which is fortunate. V19C4
As for the “conversation” between me and Ciel san, it is being carried out instantaneously. However, regarding the voice I heard from Chloe, there was a slight time lag.
The cause of that remains unknown, though? If “information particles” are not affected by time or space, then it feels like the transmission of intent should also occur instantaneously.
《Because I am a part of Master, I am completely unaffected by time. However, if one wishes to know the situation outside while inside the stopped world, it is necessary to send out “information particles” and grasp the surrounding information》
Hmm, this is difficult to explain. In short, since “information particles” are not affected by space time, they can move under any circumstances. That is precisely why, by interfering with “information particles” as a substitute for magicules, it is possible to secure vision and transmit thoughts. In other words, in order to move under these conditions, merely interfering with “information particles” is probably not sufficient. Chloe appeared to be speaking normally, but it seems one must not confuse this with the real world. I thought it felt like “thought acceleration,” but that also seems to be incorrect. Apparently, this is simply the exchange of “information particles” without any time lag, and the reason that is possible is likely because we share the same “soul.” V19C4
Another example is that when Rimuru wasn't a digital lifeform yet (and thus didn't have infinite speed), the conversation he was having with Chloe had a time lag cuz he'd take finite time to process the information and etc, because just being able to interfere with info particles doesn't mean you'll have the same characteristics as them:
As for the “conversation” between me and Ciel san, it is being carried out instantaneously. However, regarding the voice I heard from Chloe, there was a slight time lag.
The cause of that remains unknown, though? If “information particles” are not affected by time or space, then it feels like the transmission of intent should also occur instantaneously.
《Because I am a part of Master, I am completely unaffected by time. However, if one wishes to know the situation outside while inside the stopped world, it is necessary to send out “information particles” and grasp the surrounding information》
Hmm, this is difficult to explain. In short, since “information particles” are not affected by space time, they can move under any circumstances. That is precisely why, by interfering with “information particles” as a substitute for magicules, it is possible to secure vision and transmit thoughts. In other words, in order to move under these conditions, merely interfering with “information particles” is probably not sufficient. Chloe appeared to be speaking normally, but it seems one must not confuse this with the real world. I thought it felt like “thought acceleration,” but that also seems to be incorrect. Apparently, this is simply the exchange of “information particles” without any time lag, and the reason that is possible is likely because we share the same “soul.” V19C4
And above all, they are quite literally said to have a MOVEMENT SPEED:
Since Ciel san has become able to interfere with “information particles,” it is possible for her to respond.
To begin with, the reason I am currently able to “see” the surrounding situation is also because “information particles” are being reflected. Whether the movement speed of “information particles” in this “stopped world” is constant or not those various things are points of curiosity, but it seems that conversation can be established, which is fortunate. V19C4
You don't have that if you're teleporting instead of moving.
Matter of Normal Speed
So a separate thing is the discussion about whether they are always at this speed or no. And the answer is; they aren't.
When they become Digital Lifeforms, they have to transform even their entire being into digital nature made of info particles (normally only heart core is made up of these particles):
It feels like the “information particles” that should be at different coordinates are transferring “information” between each other with zero time lag.
Regardless of how much distance there is, if they are “information particles” existing within the recognizable space, then the time lag is zero. In other words, “information particles” are transcending space time. Our conversation as well is established by utilizing the information transfer between these “information particles.”
Then, how can we move? Could it be that this…?
《If it is a spiritual lifeform, then by transforming all matter into “information particles,” it is reaching (becoming) an information lifeform (Digital Nature), perhaps.》 V19C4
And that wouldn't be a good thing in a normal daily-life moment, because Information particles have a constant speed. So they can't magically slow down to non-infinite speed.
That was, in a word, tremendous. This is a fact that became clear while watching the battle, but it seems that “the movement speed of information particles is constant.”
Conversation was possible, and even the reaction speed of vision was uniform. This was a clear physical phenomenon, to about the same degree as “nothing can exceed the speed of light.”
If that is the case, then why do the “information particles” exceed the speed of light? V19C4
Thus, they would have to de-transform when they are done battling/when it isn't needed, and transform again when needed. "Battle" here refers to fighting in the Suspended World, as otherwise they don't usually transform. Additionally, the reason they don't transform into digital lifeforms unless the user has activated Suspended World is because it takes wayyy to energy to exist in the Cardinal World (a physical/semi-physical world) without a physical body. It's not that they can, they just chose not to because it takes way too much energy otherwise.
Though, beings can still transform into Digital Nature to the point that Suspended World is never a problem for them (that is, even if someone activates SW in the middle of a fight, its not a problem), aka instantly:
Veldora remained calm, and showed no sign of being intimidated in front of Dagruel. That is only natural. Unlike Luminous, who can do nothing when time is stopped, he can move in the “stopped world” as if it were natural. V21C1
And digital lifeforms or those with similar skills can also chose to interfere with data particles in the place of magicules whenever needed:
Most authorities (skills) exert their effects on the substance called magicules. By freely manipulating magicules and rewriting laws, they cause supernatural abnormal phenomena.
That is precisely why, if the surrounding magicules are disturbed as in “magic interference,” the activation of magic can be obstructed, however…
In contrast, when it comes to higher-level Ultimate Skills instead of magicules, they possess, in a sense, god like authorities that make it possible to interfere even with “spirit particles,” which are the substances composing magicules, and furthermore even with “information particles,” the smallest units of matter. V22C3
And they can also sense whenever Suspended World is activated (aka when other dlfs are on the move), so that they can transform:
《I believe there is no mistake. For those who are capable of observing the “stopped world,” the moment someone activates “time stop” somewhere, they become aware of it.》 V19C4
New Rating
Well, there isn't really a new thing to write, it is just the old description slightly adjusted:
Speed: Relativistic (Description) with Infinite perception speed normally, Infinite when transformed (Digital Lifeforms can transform into Digital Nature instantly and know whenever someone activates Suspended World (Time Stop) or another Digital Lifeform is on the move — When transformed, Digital Lifeforms are composed entirely of Data Particles, which can travel anywhere within perceived space without any time lag or in 0 time)
Tho, I think there's some problem with infinite perception speed normally, since they still perceive the world like normal people otherwise (I mean, who would want to live in a frozen world forever), but it's a matter of fact that they can sense asap when someone activates the Suspended World and transform accordingly, so there's that perception too.
Honestly I felt like "reaction speed" would be better, but that would include being able to react to Suspended World at all times, but let me know.
Characters affected by this are:
All Digital Lifeforms
Rimuru (True Dragon/Ultimate Slime key) has his "FTL via Emergency Mode" speed changed to Infinite. He also gets this added to his reactive evolution, something like "can adapt to time stop and move at infinite speed after observation" or similar.
Reactive Evolution (Ciel quickly developed an Emergency Mode upon encountering Time Stop, allowing Rimuru to at least observe Digital Lifeforms and their movement speed, and he soon evolved into a Digital Lifeform himself after more observation)
Information Particles do not teleport, they move normally, just in 0 time.
Everyone who is a DLF or can move in suspended world (since to do that you need to become a dlf) gets infinite speed. Rimuru (True Dragon) key gets infinite perception speed via Emergency Mode + a new description addition to his Reactive Evolution.
Arguments and Counters
This section contains Arguments from the previous thread and Counters to them:
Characters that are supposedly Digital Lifeforms are shown to move at finite speed outside Suspended World.
Answer: That is because they aren't transformed into Digital Nature when outside. They taken on physical form, a physical body, thus are subjected to the physical law that "speed of light cannot be surpassed".
It isn't speed but teleportation.
Answer: It is by all means speed. While the table of contents section already explains it, I will summarize it once again. Information Particles have a uniform "movement speed", Teleportation is distinguished even in the Suspended World compared to regular movement, even when it's being done by Digital Lifeforms (like Veldanava) and being done in front of Digital Lifeforms (like Rimuru). There are also countless other reasons explained in the main OP.
Why would characters not transform into DLFs outside the Suspended World?
I wanted to give my own doubts about "teleportation" definition args, until I saw this
Since Ciel san has become able to interfere with “information particles,” it is possible for her to respond. To begin with, the reason I am currently able to “see” the surrounding situation is also because “information particles” are being reflected. Whether the movement speed of “information particles” in this “stopped world” is constant or not those various things are points of curiosity, but it seems that conversation can be established, which is fortunate.
I don’t think I even needed to say much here since I’m the one who upgraded Tensura characters to immeasurable speed in the first place. I agree with this thread.
honestly think that is just PIS. I had brought it up before but there should be no movement in SW that fact should had been cleared from the very start
honestly think that is just PIS. I had brought it up before but there should be no movement in SW that fact should had been cleared from the very start
Well, this was apparently the only movement that was purely physical without the need to manipulate information particles, and even Rimuru was surprised that this was possible. I’d like to hear more opinions on it.
Well, this was apparently the only movement that was purely physical without the need to manipulate information particles, and even Rimuru was surprised that this was possible. I’d like to hear more opinions on it.
when we talk about movement being faster than light it is not possible in the material world. It is just another way of saying they move beyond the speed limit . So no it is not an anti feat
Well, this was apparently the only movement that was purely physical without the need to manipulate information particles, and even Rimuru was surprised that this was possible. I’d like to hear more opinions on it.
How is it transformation ? there physical bodies are distinct the informational self it's more like that possessionof a physical body that'swhy they still perseve the world at the same speed and "react instantly"
How is it transformation ? there physical bodies are distinct the informational self it's more like that possessionof a physical body that'swhy they still perseve the world at the same speed and "react instantly"
An example is that Rimuru can't perceive the outside world at the same speed before he turned on emergency mode, even though he can think purely with his heart core.
The problem here is about the difference between self-thinking speed and speed of perception of the outside world. Just because you can think really fast in your own head doesn't mean you can see information particles moving at that speed.
Unfortunately, it seems like vsbw doesn't differentiate between the two (it's very uncommon so no surprise)
Agree for Infinite speed. ngl We should talk about giving phantoms or equivalent beings an infinite speed outside cardinal world considering the fact they managed to dominate a low 2-C( infinite 3-D + 1 time dimension) within only 10000 years. With Teleportation hax they cannot teleport to places they haven’t been too before well knowing coordinate is also a thing but I doubt they can since they are dumber than Rimuru even tho with his Supergenius intelligence he still ride on ranga to ingrassia. Well let’s just leave this for another crt
For some reason I always forget to actually reply to those
Anyway, agree
Так как таблицу и схему рисовали независимо друг от друга, то нумерация населённых пунктов в таблице никак не связана с буквенными обозначениями на графе. Определите, какова сумма протяжённостей дорог из пункта A в пункт B и из пункта E в пункт F. В ответе запишите целое число. Задание 2 Миша заполнял таблицу истинности логической функции F = ¬((¬x ∨ y) ∧ ¬w) ∨ ¬(z ∧ ¬(y ∧ w)), но успел заполнить лишь фрагмент из трёх различных её строк, даже не указав, какому столбцу таблицы
